Honest opinions from Christians please

[my opinion]

I ask these questions as I am truly perplexed, not having a go at you.

How do you continue to believe and have faith in the bible when it is rife with misinformation, misleading and at times outright lies. My examples are:
Mankind is around 4000-6000 years old. Science has proven beyond any doubt that we are at least 60, 000 years old for homo-sapiens, then we have all of the other variations of man prior.

Noah's flood was global. It was regional! Sediment layers, ice cores and many many other facts provea global flood as incorrect.

The sun goes up and down. The earth orbit the sun and may give this appearance to assuming people- but if the bible was the word of god then this literary error would not have occurred.
If the bible really and truly is the word of god, how did these very fundamental facts get so wrong? There are literally hundreds more, but I use these 3 are they have been proven beyond a shadow of a doubt.

 

[Katzpur]

Hello, My Opinion. Here's my opinion: The Bible never intended to be a science textbook. Here are a few brief thoughts I once read that explain my perspective pretty well, I think.

"In response to much of the rhetoric we have seen lately concerning creation and evolution, I don't understand why it is so difficult for some people to believe that God is the greatest scientist in the universe but that he could not explain some of his high tech processes to people who thought a fig leaf was high tech. Even if he could show Adam the whole truth, how could Adam write that down in terms that the rest of the world would understand without a few thousand years of education?

How do you explain to your children how a gasoline engine works or where rain comes from? Is it possible that you answer this never-ending flow of curiosity with 'note quite accurate answers' which are in terms your children will understand?

When God told Adam that he was created from the dust in one day, is it not possible that this answer was his 'not quite accurate explanation' in terms that Adam could understand? How would you explain genetics and millenniums to a man who first and greatest creation was disposable underwear harversted from the same tree his food was harvested from?

God didn't just give us a body, he give us a brain and what that a fair share of curiosity. He knew that knowledge is an eternal progression so he gave us the tools needed to eternally ask and learn the answers to all of life's questions. line upon line and precept upon precept.

I think it is reasonable to assume that the creator of the laws of the universe must also by his nature live by the laws he has set for us. If not then he would not have commanded us to "become as I am.' If you doubt this then I challenge you to explain microscopic living organisms or genetic blueprints to your 5-year-old. No short cuts, though, just the science."

 

[CaptainBritain]

This is more of a question for a young earth creationist of which I am not, i do not know how to put a link up here but google answers in Genesis and a young earth creationist view point and plenty of dodgy answers will come your way.

As far as the Bible goes, Genesis takes a lot of grief, yet the part of the book ie chapters 1 to 15 are pretty much all that covers this area, a very pages indeed to cover the creation of everything in its entirety and the spread of man, the formation of this and that etc, yet it makes a good stab at it.
It is an ultra abridged stab at it.

Katzpur is very right, God has to communicate in ways that can be understood by the audience thats in front of him, we may think we are better than Adam perhaps and would be able to understand better, but that is wrong.
We have the benefit these days of better ways of recording information and data, its the sole reason for our seeming superiority, societies around the world without this record keeping a data storage ie tribal cultures live very different lives to highlight the point pretty unchanged for many generations.
Try teaching them the secrets of the universe without keeping it basic, they have the same brain power as us but have not had life long access to the info and data stores we have.

God tells people what they need to know, the rest is down to the people to figure out, else life would be pretty dull, no discovery?

 

[my opinion]

The examples I gave have nothing to do with anything Adam said. They were written by people who had high tech gear like paper and pen, so I don't see how pulling them aside and saying listen...the sun does not go up and down... we, as a planet go around the sun, would be that confusing. I think if I corrected that error in a 5 year old they would even get it.
As far as the flood goes, that has nothing to do with explaining high tech anything. They said the flood was global and we now know it wasn't. There is nothing high tech about that, and one would think that if this info was from the mouth of our creator he would ensure the accuracy of the facts so that the conversation we are now having need not take place.
And as far as mankind being 10-15 times older than implied in the bible...this also has nothing to do with god not wanting to overload anyone's brain.It is simply deduction, by tracing back through all of the fathers and sons mentioned in the bible and for how long the bible said they lived and died. It is not stated outright, it is traced through the genealogy, according to the 'facts in the bible. So again, this also has nothing to do with anything high tech or god wanting to shield anyone from overload.
Just in Genesis alone we have the passage that says and god created man and woman, then there were many among us. Who are the many? Didn't god just create adam and eve, but now there are many among us?

You say he gave us a brain and curiosity to find our own answers. Well we are finding and proving them, but they expose the bible as full of incorrect information.
There are literally hundreds of these errors throughout the bible and I did honestly expect a more logical argument than I have received.
However to answer my question I see you have once again relied on quoting someone else. Do you not have your own thoughts instead of pasting someone else's?

 

[CaptainBritain]

If you did not read through the site answersinGenesis as I suggested, and I know you have not you have not had time, there is lots on the site.

You are looking to debate with a young earth creationist who holds the Bible to have no errancy, that site is the best place to find there answers.
Those types are few and far between.

Sorry if you didnt like my answers much but good manners cost nothing.
Ive pointed you in the best direction for the answers you seek, use it or do not.

 

[my opinion]

I do not seek answers, I have studied enough! I wanted to know how ordinary Christian people, in the true face of reality as it is today can keep on believing what you believe. That is what my post is all about.

 

[CaptainBritain]

Well for one science has no proof for or against the spiritual, its the wrong tool for the job,
for two, as stated the Bible is not a science manual its a guide to good living, the spiritual, a source of prophecy, much of which came and is coming true.
Third of all there is many holes in the science that you hold so highly, the science of finding the date of a rock or bone is open to much debate, Big bang what caused it?, how did life just spring up on earth?, why is there so many marks of an intelligent hand in creation?, Science has answered so little, and what it claims to have killed in the bible is open to much debate.
After all the Bible says that god created a fully functioning earth with mature eco systems in severn days, that has not been proved or dis-proved by science, it may also mess up how things get dated.
Science cannot weight, measures or collect samples of the spiritual it is therefore a blunt tool to prove anything or dis-prove anything with regard to it.
I can continue with more reasons and I will, but I will leave it at that for now and let you get a word in.

Also I will add that from time to time science does get turned on its head, putting all your eggs in that basket can lead to an ommlette.

 

[Luminous]

I would suggest looking through 'answers in the Quran'. i'm sure there are some there too.
BTW: there is no prove for or against Invisible Pink Unicorns. go ahead, believe in them, they'll take you to the meddow of love and happiness if you do.

 

[IF_u_knew]

I ask these questions as I am truly perplexed, not having a go at you.

How do you continue to believe and have faith in the bible when it is rife with misinformation, misleading and at times outright lies. My examples are:
Mankind is around 4000-6000 years old. Science has proven beyond any doubt that we are at least 60, 000 years old for homo-sapiens, then we have all of the other variations of man prior.

Noah's flood was global. It was regional! Sediment layers, ice cores and many many other facts provea global flood as incorrect.

The sun goes up and down. The earth orbit the sun and may give this appearance to assuming people- but if the bible was the word of god then this literary error would not have occurred.
If the bible really and truly is the word of god, how did these very fundamental facts get so wrong? There are literally hundreds more, but I use these 3 are they have been proven beyond a shadow of a doubt.

I hope you do not mind if I answer. I am not a Christian but I subscribe to the teachings in the Tanakh.

* I subscribe to evolution and personally see this as being supported in the Tanakh.
* I do not believe in a world wide wide flood and see this as simply a beautiful allegory depicting a deep Truth.. if one would use their G.d given intelligence, they could figure out the truth in which it was depicting.
*And I am not sure what you mean by the last.

Another one that got me to looking at the Word differently was that in Isaiah it says that G.d sits on the circle of the earth. After much thinking and researching the Word, I came to realize that this was not speaking of the shape of the earth (which we know is not literally a circle shape), but rather the cooperation of the right brain and the left brain.. and it is in this perspective that one should approach the Tanakh.

 

[Luminous]

I do not seek answers, I have studied enough! I wanted to know how ordinary Christian people, in the true face of reality as it is today can keep on believing what you believe. That is what my post is all about.

: You will find that we as a people are generally stubborn. Atheists are stubborn too.

 

[Comet]

I ask these questions as I am truly perplexed, not having a go at you.

How do you continue to believe and have faith in the bible when it is rife with misinformation, misleading and at times outright lies. My examples are:
Mankind is around 4000-6000 years old. Science has proven beyond any doubt that we are at least 60, 000 years old for homo-sapiens, then we have all of the other variations of man prior.

Where does the Bible, itself say this? Please quote me the verse, or do you jump to your own conclusions here? Perhaps you jump to the conclustions of Fundamentalists, which not all here are.

Noah's flood was global. It was regional! Sediment layers, ice cores and many many other facts provea global flood as incorrect.

Many traditions, including Native American ones, have stories of a great flood. There is some evidence to support the fact that there once was. To call it Noah's flood is a limited view point. Besides, if you look back at history and the known world; a major flood of all KNOWN areas would be a global flood, afterall the world was once flat....

The sun goes up and down. The earth orbit the sun and may give this appearance to assuming people- but if the bible was the word of god then this literary error would not have occurred.
If the bible really and truly is the word of god, how did these very fundamental facts get so wrong? There are literally hundreds more, but I use these 3 are they have been proven beyond a shadow of a doubt.

The sun does go up and down from a human perspective. Where does the Bible say that God himself wrote all the words in it? If I remember correctly: the finger of God wrote the ten commandments, nothing else. All else is human writings inspired by God.... but remember, humans have limitations where as God does not.

Where again is your proof? I'd be happy to go through the other 100 examples you have with you.

 

[my opinion]

I certainly do not put all of my eggs in the science basket. My spiritual side and philosophy outweighs my love of science very much so. And again I am not using science to measure anything spiritual. I am using it to measure the age of fossils, which are real, tangible, and physical, not spiritual. What part of carbon dating is open to debate? The telescope lets us see with our own eyes that the sun does not go up and down, there are no holes in that. You are side stepping my original question... I am not suggesting that science weigh, measure, or collect samples of the spiritual. If you are saying that you simply do not believe the scientific methods and facts regarding the sun going up and down, the age of mankind, and the extent of Noah's flood then that would be an answer, but you are bringing all sorts of irrelevant arguments into to this. Sure they are things that can be debated, but it is not relevant in regard to my original question. This seems to be a re-occurring theme whenever I really try to put myself in a Christians shoes and try and find out what they are thinking. However, I must say that you are certainly not as hostile and angry as is the case when I try to have this conversation with other Christians. I tip my hat to you.

 

[IF_u_knew]

This seems to be a re-occurring theme whenever I really try to put myself in a Christians shoes and try and find out what they are thinking.

Aww.. I think your questions are very relevant and shows signs of intelligence :yes:. A lot of people, though, you have to understand love their security blankets. It is much the same kind of thing as when it was questioned whether the earth was flat (*ahem*) or in fact, spherical shaped. There was much opposition and unfortunately killings ensued because a lot of people think that the security blanket is actually a valid method of.. well, security.

I watched a video not too long ago about a group of kids who went into the science field in college after having grown up with the christian teaching. Their number one fear in accepting what seemed most logical is that it would destroy their faith. Faith that is unfounded is controlling and manipulative. By the way, I rather enjoyed your questions.

 

[CaptainBritain]

I would suggest looking through 'answers in the Quran'. i'm sure there are some there too.
BTW: there is no prove for or against Invisible Pink Unicorns. go ahead, believe in them, they'll take you to the meddow of love and happiness if you do.

If that has an actual website the I will take a look, and if the Pink Unicorns have anything to back them up id look them up too, im not afraid to keep an open mind, point in the right direction to the literature and i will get right on it.

The thing is that science is only as good as its base assumptions, shift the base assumptions and splat it falls flat, now if atheists want to use science as there core weapon in these debates it needs to be understood that science has not covered or explored every angle of anything as yet, and will not for some generations to come.
I am not a scientist, but when one comes and say this and that is proof of X and Y i expect every angle to have been explored and when it comes to the Bible this seldom happens, when it does i will take it more seriously.

 

[Comet]

I certainly do not put all of my eggs in the science basket. My spiritual side and philosophy outweighs my love of science very much so. And again I am not using science to measure anything spiritual. I am using it to measure the age of fossils, which are real, tangible, and physical, not spiritual. What part of carbon dating is open to debate? The telescope lets us see with our own eyes that the sun does not go up and down, there are no holes in that. You are side stepping my original question... I am not suggesting that science weigh, measure, or collect samples of the spiritual. If you are saying that you simply do not believe the scientific methods and facts regarding the sun going up and down, the age of mankind, and the extent of Noah's flood then that would be an answer, but you are bringing all sorts of irrelevant arguments into to this. Sure they are things that can be debated, but it is not relevant in regard to my original question. This seems to be a re-occurring theme whenever I really try to put myself in a Christians shoes and try and find out what they are thinking. However, I must say that you are certainly not as hostile and angry as is the case when I try to have this conversation with other Christians. I tip my hat to you.

I have irrelavant arguements? Do tell as I quoted and addressed the OP point by point. Did I not? Yes, there are things that can be debated as you say. This is a debate forum so.... I ask you again to address my points which are valid not only from a Christian perspective but from a science perspective.

I am rarely hostile... glad you are not as well. I'd like to continue this debate/conversation. Perhaps you could restate your OP and how I missed the point of it by my replies?

 

[Comet]

You mentioned the date of fossils, so I ask again where the Bible says we are only as old as you said????

 

[CaptainBritain]

I certainly do not put all of my eggs in the science basket. My spiritual side and philosophy outweighs my love of science very much so. And again I am not using science to measure anything spiritual. I am using it to measure the age of fossils, which are real, tangible, and physical, not spiritual. What part of carbon dating is open to debate? The telescope lets us see with our own eyes that the sun does not go up and down, there are no holes in that. You are side stepping my original question... I am not suggesting that science weigh, measure, or collect samples of the spiritual. If you are saying that you simply do not believe the scientific methods and facts regarding the sun going up and down, the age of mankind, and the extent of Noah's flood then that would be an answer, but you are bringing all sorts of irrelevant arguments into to this. Sure they are things that can be debated, but it is not relevant in regard to my original question. This seems to be a re-occurring theme whenever I really try to put myself in a Christians shoes and try and find out what they are thinking. However, I must say that you are certainly not as hostile and angry as is the case when I try to have this conversation with other Christians. I tip my hat to you.

You write better than me, can you write me two brief descriptions, first the scientific method for estimating the age of organic matter, and the second for estimating the age of rocks.

I know the methods, but if you write them down, then you are happy they are correct and then I can tell you point by point what is wrong with them.

(I will have to do it next evening as bed is calling me)

I think if we break this thread down to tiny bits i will be able display why my faith does not suffer, its the best way I can think to do it,

 

[my opinion]

Comet, if you read post you will find that the bible does not quote in a verse that mankind is 4000-6000 years old. What I said was it was implied. When you add up all of the fathers and son's... you know... so and so begat so and so... and take note of their age, it isn't rocket science to add up the years and arrive at the age of mankind, according to the bible.
My point exactly on the flood issue. Christians often refer to the flood as Noah's flood, not me. And bringing in the Native American's flood is also irrelevant. The earth gets flooded in various places all of the time... no one is disputing that...I am living not far from one now...but the flood of Noah's time was stated in the bible as global...why else did he build this supposed giant ark and fill it with all those living species.

Next... the sun does not appear to go up and down, which is a bad observation on the part of the writers of the bible. If it went up and down it would rise and set in the east etc, but it doesn't...it comes up in the opposite direction to where it goes down.

And lastly your comment about god not writing all of the words in the bible blows me away. If it was indeed inspired by god as you say, then the info would be accurate wouldn't it. To now blame the inaccurate writings on the fallibility of mere men is basically saying they made it up as they went along.. so what's made up...what is truth?

 

[Comet]

Comet, if you read post you will find that the bible does not quote in a verse that mankind is 4000-6000 years old. What I said was it was implied. When you add up all of the fathers and son's... you know... so and so begat so and so... and take note of their age, it isn't rocket science to add up the years and arrive at the age of mankind, according to the bible.

Again my friend I shall retort: The BIBLE DOES NOT SAY WE ARE AS YOUNG AS YOU (AGAIN YOU) CLAIM! A day to God is far beyond a day to a human! Your adding up the years is to claim that people actually lived 300+ years! Does your way say this is possible? Different age, differnt meanings.... Yet again, God is beyond time. Humans have clouded the truth behind all with their interpretations. I hope that makes some sence to you. Adam was created out of the land.... the BIBLE never says how long this took, and only we interpret that a day to God is the same for us. Okay? I hope you can see my point on that...

My point exactly on the flood issue. Christians often refer to the flood as Noah's flood, not me. And bringing in the Native American's flood is also irrelevant. The earth gets flooded in various places all of the time... no one is disputing that...I am living not far from one now...but the flood of Noah's time was stated in the bible as global...why else did he build this supposed giant ark and fill it with all those living species.

You refered to it as Noah's flood, not me nor Christians. I brought up a valid point indeed: OTHER CULTURES OTHER THAN JEWISH HAVE A BELIEF IN A GLOBAL FLOOD! How can cultures that have nothing to do with each other believe the same thing less there were some fact within it?

Global Flood

I can list a million websites to your million websites in regards to the flood. We agree there was a flood, what that was is what we debate. I was an anthropology major, so I believe in science and evolution. The BIBLE does not condemn either!

Next... the sun does not appear to go up and down, which is a bad observation on the part of the writers of the bible. If it went up and down it would rise and set in the east etc, but it doesn't...it comes up in the opposite direction to where it goes down.

You read too much into what you mean to say. It does go UP and DOWN, does it not? Again, this is what you mean to say.... quote the BIBLE as you wish to argue on this...???

And lastly your comment about god not writing all of the words in the bible blows me away. If it was indeed inspired by god as you say, then the info would be accurate wouldn't it. To now blame the inaccurate writings on the fallibility of mere men is basically saying they made it up as they went along.. so what's made up...what is truth?

Indeed your last two comments say it all: So what's made up.... what is truth? I guess we are all seaching for that answer. Isn't that what things such as the BIBLE are about, looking for answers? Science as well.....

I hope I addressed your points better this go round

 

[Luminous]

If that has an actual website the I will take a look, and if the Pink Unicorns have anything to back them up id look them up too, im not afraid to keep an open mind, point in the right direction to the literature and i will get right on it.

well, unicorns are in various of our records and you probably wont see one cuz they are invisible. but most certainly they are pink, at least some of them, based on texts.

The thing is that science is only as good as its base assumptions, shift the base assumptions and splat it falls flat, now if atheists want to use science as there core weapon in these debates it needs to be understood that science has not covered or explored every angle of anything as yet, and will not for some generations to come.
I am not a scientist, but when one comes and say this and that is proof of X and Y i expect every angle to have been explored and when it comes to the Bible this seldom happens, when it does i will take it more seriously.

base assumptions. tell me some base assumptions of science. right now nothing comes to mind, im sure there are though. As I am Agnostic, i understand your angle thing about believing stuff, even science. however, it also applies to religion.