Honest opinions from Christians please

[IF_u_knew]

Maybe I'm totally off here, but I took the OP to ask why accept any of the bible as fact when so much has been proven inaccurate? From the very beginning we know Genesis to not be true, so what makes people think that any of it is? And if one subscribes to the idea that parts of the bible are allegorical...then why not all of it? Also, who gets to decide what parts are allegory and what parts are true? I thought the question was simple. If parts of the bible are false/allegorical/ or just outright scientifically impossible then what makes a person believe in any of it?

This is not accurate. It is how people are looking at it that is inaccurate. I see that the Tanakh supports evolution which has been shown very clearly in Science to be fact. The Creation story at the beginning depicts the Creation of a person being purely instinctual to being one of knowledge and thought. All of what is said in the first 3 chapters is explained all throughout the Tanakh (the only way I know to explain how to see more than just the words is by using the algorythm method.. puzzles would have less meaning if on first try, we could put it together.. same thing with the Word of G.d). Just because some choose to take the Creation in the first 3 chapters as literal does not mean that the Book in and of itself is inaccurate.. it is more a case of man's wisdom proving itself to be foolish. :yes:

Edited to add: I thought I should clarify that I am not calling the "clearing up" of the OP's question inaccurate. Sorry.. just meaning to say that the Tanakh can not be proven to be inaccurate since science is continually proving it right... just not in the way that most dogmatic types are seeing it. I personally take the stories as allegorical since G.d made the Laws (including the Laws of Nature) and He will work within them so that we are not decieved. As far as the people existing.. this really is neither here nor there concerning the Truth. I do not doubt that they existed, though I do not think it is quite the images we have conjured up in our minds based on the words alone. I speculate the purpose for this is so that we do not fall into idol worship. *just a thought*

 

[Draka]

This is not accurate. It is how people are looking at it that is inaccurate. I see that the Tanakh supports evolution which has been shown very clearly in Science to be fact. The Creation story at the beginning depicts the Creation of a person being purely instinctual to being one of knowledge and thought. All of what is said in the first 3 chapters is explained all throughout the Tanakh (the only way I know to explain how to see more than just the words is by using the algorythm method.. puzzles would have less meaning if on first try, we could put it together.. same thing with the Word of G.d). Just because some choose to take the Creation in the first 3 chapters as literal does not mean that the Book in and of itself is inaccurate.. it is more a case of man's wisdom proving itself to be foolish. :yes:

And this is still not an answer to the question I pose. I honestly don't think I'm going to get one that's really on the subject.

If you, or any Christian for that matter, do NOT take all that is written in the bible to be literal fact and true to life, then WHY do you choose to believe any of the rest of the book to be literal or true to life? WHY is it ok to chalk up Genesis to allegory but one must believe that all that is said of Jesus Christ is true? WHY, if the worldwide flood and Noah's Ark is a fable must one believe that Moses actually received the 10 commandments? Must I believe Aunt Em and Uncle Henry were real people who owned a farm in Kansas if I know that Dorothy didn't actually follow the yellow brick road?

All I want to know is WHY someone chooses to believe some parts of a book or story when other parts are obviously not real. HOW can you justify choosing to believe in one thing when what may surround it is false?

 

[Jose Fly]

Wait a second....CaptainBritain first says he doesn't want to derail the thread by citing anything specific by AIG, but then turns right around and demands others bring "proof" for their arguments?

Interesting.....

 

[Draka]

Wait a second....CaptainBritain first says he doesn't want to derail the thread by citing anything specific by AIG, but then turns right around and demands others bring "proof" for their arguments?

Interesting.....

Not as much interesting as it is predictable behaviour from someone who holds his beliefs...someone that would actually even go to AIG in the first insane place.

 

[IF_u_knew]

And this is still not an answer to the question I pose. I honestly don't think I'm going to get one that's really on the subject.

Or perhaps you do not recognize that I did give an answer since you are looking for the answer a Christian would give. The only reason I even respond to a question posed to Christians is that you are correct, you will not get an answer from them since how can one answer such things that they do not understand?

If you, or any Christian for that matter, do NOT take all that is written in the bible to be literal fact and true to life, then WHY do you choose to believe any of the rest of the book to be literal or true to life? WHY is it ok to chalk up Genesis to allegory but one must believe that all that is said of Jesus Christ is true? WHY, if the worldwide flood and Noah's Ark is a fable must one believe that Moses actually received the 10 commandments? Must I believe Aunt Em and Uncle Henry were real people who owned a farm in Kansas if I know that Dorothy didn't actually follow the yellow brick road?

*giggles* at the last part of this section. You can believe it and it still does not make it true. That is why I discarded the bible in the first place; based on the dogmatic/literal view of christianity that I was spoon fed since as long as I could remember.

The fact is this, you do not have to believe any of it, literally or allegorically. That is your choice. When one questions others for the answers only they themselves can honestly answer, it makes me think that they are being drawn to the Word and just can not understand why since, to look at it on the surface level, it does leave little to be believed. I do not believe that Moses stood atop a mountain and received tablets of stone with the 10 commandments written by the finger of G.d. I take this as allegorical of Jeremiah 31; speaking of G.d writing the knowing right from wrong on our hearts.. and no doubt, most have hearts that are like stone!

The story of Noah is OBVIOUSLY allegorical. There are many clues as to why.. here is one for instance:
Genesis 8; particularly verse 9 which says "But the dove found no rest for the sole of her foot, and she returned unto him into the ark, for the waters were on the face of the whole earth: then he put forth his hand, and took her, and pulled her in unto him into the ark.

We not only have the intelligence to approach this in the correct manner, but we are given clue after clue that these things are meant to be seen beyond a surface level. The problem is that most are not so concerned with knowing the Truth as they are about being right. G.d clearly lays out the requirements for obtaining the keys to understanding His Word.. and to ask others to prove what they think is right is not part of the requirement for seeing.

All I want to know is WHY someone chooses to believe some parts of a book or story when other parts are obviously not real. HOW can you justify choosing to believe in one thing when what may surround it is false?

Well, I can only answer for me.. I know it contains the Truth and I love the way in which it contains it, because I had to work to be able to see it. I quit relying on others to give me the answers and started asking G.d (though at the time, I was not asking so much G.d as just throwing it out to the universe that I wanted the Truth and not lies.. since I had the same questions that you posed). When I quit relying on others and literally threw out all that I had been taught, suddenly, I got the answers to the questions that you pose. I can lay it all out for you, but that still would not be proof for you; and understandably so. Anything that requires me to believe it without a reason and without understanding, I do not believe. Toss it out if you do not think it makes sense. I did at one time. That is really all anyone can say to you.. it is up to you to answer your questions. Anyone who tells you otherwise is simply recruiting you to ease the questions that are on their mind.

 

[DallasApple]

...why do you choose to believe in other parts of the bible when you, yourself, already admit some of it is not true and discount it?

Draka..

Because I think some parts of the Bible show how exceptional in the most of glorious ways we can be.

The best that we can be.Not "punsihment and sinful nature"..Lessons.to learn from.An aim in how wonderful we are.And in my heart our common goals and dreams for the good .

Love

Dallas

 

[painted wolf]

I'm not a Christian but I can't help but wonder...

Is it impossible to find meaning in metaphor?

Does spiritual meaning have to coincide with scientific fact?

wa:do

 

[DallasApple]

Sorry if this gets old..but how could I reject it..

1 Corinthians 13 (New International Version)


1 Corinthians 13

Love

1If I speak in the tongues[a] of men and of angels, but have not love, I am only a resounding gong or a clanging cymbal. 2If I have the gift of prophecy and can fathom all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have a faith that can move mountains, but have not love, I am nothing. 3If I give all I possess to the poor and surrender my body to the flames,[b] but have not love, I gain nothing.
4Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. 5It is not rude, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. 6Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. 7It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres.
8Love never fails. But where there are prophecies, they will cease; where there are tongues, they will be stilled; where there is knowledge, it will pass away. 9For we know in part and we prophesy in part, 10but when perfection comes, the imperfect disappears. 11When I was a child, I talked like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I put childish ways behind me. 12Now we see but a poor reflection as in a mirror; then we shall see face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I am fully known. 13And now these three remain: faith, hope and love. But the greatest of these is love.

Love

Dallas

 

[Draka]

Or perhaps you do not recognize that I did give an answer since you are looking for the answer a Christian would give. The only reason I even respond to a question posed to Christians is that you are correct, you will not get an answer from them since how can one answer such things that they do not understand?



*giggles* at the last part of this section. You can believe it and it still does not make it true. That is why I discarded the bible in the first place; based on the dogmatic/literal view of christianity that I was spoon fed since as long as I could remember.

The fact is this, you do not have to believe any of it, literally or allegorically. That is your choice. When one questions others for the answers only they themselves can honestly answer, it makes me think that they are being drawn to the Word and just can not understand why since, to look at it on the surface level, it does leave little to be believed. I do not believe that Moses stood atop a mountain and received tablets of stone with the 10 commandments written by the finger of G.d. I take this as allegorical of Jeremiah 31; speaking of G.d writing the knowing right from wrong on our hearts.. and no doubt, most have hearts that are like stone!

The story of Noah is OBVIOUSLY allegorical. There are many clues as to why.. here is one for instance:
Genesis 8; particularly verse 9 which says "But the dove found no rest for the sole of her foot, and she returned unto him into the ark, for the waters were on the face of the whole earth: then he put forth his hand, and took her, and pulled her in unto him into the ark.

We not only have the intelligence to approach this in the correct manner, but we are given clue after clue that these things are meant to be seen beyond a surface level. The problem is that most are not so concerned with knowing the Truth as they are about being right. G.d clearly lays out the requirements for obtaining the keys to understanding His Word.. and to ask others to prove what they think is right is not part of the requirement for seeing.



Well, I can only answer for me.. I know it contains the Truth and I love the way in which it contains it, because I had to work to be able to see it. I quit relying on others to give me the answers and started asking G.d (though at the time, I was not asking so much G.d as just throwing it out to the universe that I wanted the Truth and not lies.. since I had the same questions that you posed). When I quit relying on others and literally threw out all that I had been taught, suddenly, I got the answers to the questions that you pose. I can lay it all out for you, but that still would not be proof for you; and understandably so. Anything that requires me to believe it without a reason and without understanding, I do not believe. Toss it out if you do not think it makes sense. I did at one time. That is really all anyone can say to you.. it is up to you to answer your questions. Anyone who tells you otherwise is simply recruiting you to ease the questions that are on their mind.

Sorry, thought that since you were answering in your fashion that you were Christian. Didn't know you don't classify yourself as such.

I guess my point is mainly towards the more hard bound Christians. The evangelicals who are so adament about certain things being absolute fact that they will judge and condemn others. If those people can ever admit that one portion of the bible isn't literal fact then they have to internally admit that what they believe to be fact might not actually be. If they did that though...their whole structure of belief would tumble down around them like a house of cards.

The short and the long of it is just the WHY. If a Christian were to just come forward and say that it is just the way they believe for internal reasons and that there is no real justifiable or logical reason why...then fine. But for a person who constantly quotes the bible for their reasons for everything in life...they'd have a much harder time in answering the question. For they could never bring themselves to admit that there is no logical reason to believe what they believe.

 

[Draka]

Draka..

Because I think some parts of the Bible show how exceptional in the most of glorious ways we can be.

The best that we can be.Not "punsihment and sinful nature"..Lessons.to learn from.An aim in how wonderful we are.And in my heart our common goals and dreams for the good .

Love

Dallas

See now, that is a good answer.

 

[DallasApple]

I'm not a Christian but I can't help but wonder...

Is it impossible to find meaning in metaphor?

Does spiritual meaning have to coincide with scientific fact?

wa:do

No its not impossible to find meaning.

Love

Dalals

 

[Charity]

I won't even try to answer because no one expects an honest opinion from a Christian anyway..........

 

[Draka]

I'm not a Christian but I can't help but wonder...

Is it impossible to find meaning in metaphor?

Does spiritual meaning have to coincide with scientific fact?

wa:do

Of course it is not impossible to find meaning in metaphor. It's getting people to realize that what they may believe as literal fact may be metaphor instead. And may actually mean more if it is metaphor than it could ever mean if it were literal.

 

[DallasApple]

I won't even try to answer because no one expects an honest opinion from a Christian anyway..........

Yes I thought that was quite frankly insulting.But I dont care because its not true with me.Im so honest I get acussed of not being a Christian.

Hey..are you wearing jeans today????

I just hung up the phone with my last "customer".

Love

Dallas

 

[Draka]

I won't even try to answer because no one expects an honest opinion from a Christian anyway..........

I don't think I ever said I never expected an honest opinion Charity. The question I pose is to make one think and question why they believe what they believe. If you have done so and have an answer, please share it.

edit: I did say at one point I didn't really expect answers...because of the answers I was getting so far weren't really even addressing the question but the examples instead. I didn't mean that anyone wouldn't answer or not be honest.

 

[ChristineES]

The whole OP was a trap. It is almost like "no matter what the Christians answer, I can make them look foolish". You can say "if you believe the creation story is symbolic then you don't believe the whole bible is literally true" you can say "if you believe the creation story is literal then I have proof that the world is older than 6,000 years". Nothing any of us could say would be the right answer for you.
I don't see any reason to continue this discussion. As Charity said, no matter what I say, you wouldn't believe it anyway.

 

[DallasApple]

Of course it is not impossible to find meaning in metaphor. It's getting people to realize that what they may believe as literal fact may be metaphor instead. And may actually mean more if it is metaphor than it could ever mean if it were literal.

I think some people are "afraid" of not taking some things in the Bible "litterally".Or they have very selfish motives to where taking it litterally sets them up in the best possible scenerio for themselves.Its not about the overall message.

Its sad.

Love

Dallas

 

[Charity]

I don't think I ever said I never expected an honest opinion Charity. The question I pose is to make one think and question why they believe what they believe. If you have done so and have an answer, please share it.

I was only teasing due to the fact that most people believe that most Christians beliefs are are false anyway. So I wouldn't be giving an honest opinion to most people no matter what I tried and then when it comes to personal experience I could produce no proof to anyone so again it would be considered a myth. I'm more into fun anyway Draka you know that, my day isn't complete if I can't have some fun and let some of my cares leave me for a while.....
Part of my belief came as a child before I ever really knew much about Church, but it was enough to convince me to believe as I do today.....

 

[Draka]

The whole OP was a trap. It is almost like "no matter what the Christians answer, I can make them look foolish". You can say "if you believe the creation story is symbolic then you don't believe the whole bible is literally true" you can say "if you believe the creation story is literal then I have proof that the world is older than 6,000 years". Nothing any of us could say would be the right answer for you.
I don't see any reason to continue this discussion. As Charity said, no matter what I say, you wouldn't believe it anyway.

But if you do believe the creation story is symbolic then you don't take the whole bible as literal. That's just common sense. What I'm asking is why do you choose to believe the parts you believe to be literal. why you choose to believe certain parts are literal instead of allegorical when you have already admitted that some parts are allegorical. Why do you make the disticntions you do and how did you come to them?

 

[Charity]

Yes I thought that was quite frankly insulting.But I dont care because its not true with me.Im so honest I get acussed of not being a Christian.

Hey..are you wearing jeans today????

I just hung up the phone with my last "customer".

Love

Dallas

Yes DA I'm wearing jeans, tight ones at that. Well at least you have customers, something to be happy about.....
Like I said most people don't put a lot of stock into what a "Christian" says not because we aren't honest but because it has to become a point to be disproved.