Honor Killings. Why is Islam the main culprit?

[Spirit of Light]

You did notice that I was careful to point out that Muslims are not the only "humans" to commit this kind of crime, didn't you?
The problem is that Muslims commit the overwhelming majority of the crimes so how can we possibly omit to mention that something is wrong in the Islamic community?

Yes you did say this time it is not only muslims. But all your posts i have seen go toward negativity against Muslims. And i find that strange when there is a lot about Islam that is actually good too, ust as it is in other religions

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Of course, that would only be possible in western countries.

Is that why there are pressures to reform in the middle east? Better education, allowing females an education, and no dogmatic teaching of the Quran that doesn't promote extremism? Getting that education is wanted by many. The problem is that there are demands to not allow it, and violence and terrorist groups dedicated to preventing that. The middle east needs people to help them shoulder those risks, not dismiss them and leave everyone there to fend for themselves.

 

[England my lionheart]

1 honor killing is reported every 4 weeks in the UK.
The problem is that most honor killings are not reported so the number of killings is actually scarily higher.
The reason for not reporting these killings is obvious, most of them are done by the family of the victim.
In most cases, the whole community knows what has happened but they all keep silence because what has been done was done following an old Islamic tradition.
The family couldn't take the shame brought upon them by their own daughter when she was seen kissing with an unapproved boyfriend.
An emergency family meeting took place and her fate was decided right there. The penalty was death.
Was that home made Islamic justice? Ancient tribal traditions? or other Islamic cultural reasons are to blame?

I understand that honor killings are not part of the Islamic Scriptures but then how do we explain that most cases happen in Islamic countries or are done by Muslims even in western countries?
A recent survey showed that 91 percent of honor killings worldwide are committed by Muslims, and 84 percent of honor killings in the United States were done by Muslims.
So please don't even try to say that Islam has nothing to do with it.
Islam has a lot to do with it but we don't know exactly how Islam is to blame in this kind of crime.
Is it more shameful that your daughter doesn't dress appropriately than your decision to kill her?
It doesn't make any sense to me but I'm a westerner and family traditions are not that important to us.
I grew up a Catholic and later in my teens I turned into an agnostic. Nobody in my family or in my social circles seemed to care so much about it, life went on with no problems.
That is not the case in Muslim families, an apostate has to face life-changing experiences once they make the decision to abandon Islam. In most cases, they have to run away and leave their families and friends for fear of retaliation.
The misbehavior of a daughter or an apostate in the family can bring so much shame to a Muslim family in a way we westerners cannot comprehend.
Why is this happening in 2019 just as it happened in the middle ages?
Is it ignorance?
Is it cultural?
Is it Islam or Islamic culture?

My best answer is ignorance devoid of available information.

 

[sooda]

1 honor killing is reported every 4 weeks in the UK.
The problem is that most honor killings are not reported so the number of killings is actually scarily higher.
The reason for not reporting these killings is obvious, most of them are done by the family of the victim.
In most cases, the whole community knows what has happened but they all keep silence because what has been done was done following an old Islamic tradition.
The family couldn't take the shame brought upon them by their own daughter when she was seen kissing with an unapproved boyfriend.
An emergency family meeting took place and her fate was decided right there. The penalty was death.
Was that home made Islamic justice? Ancient tribal traditions? or other Islamic cultural reasons are to blame?

I understand that honor killings are not part of the Islamic Scriptures but then how do we explain that most cases happen in Islamic countries or are done by Muslims even in western countries?
A recent survey showed that 91 percent of honor killings worldwide are committed by Muslims, and 84 percent of honor killings in the United States were done by Muslims.
So please don't even try to say that Islam has nothing to do with it.
Islam has a lot to do with it but we don't know exactly how Islam is to blame in this kind of crime.
Is it more shameful that your daughter doesn't dress appropriately than your decision to kill her?
It doesn't make any sense to me but I'm a westerner and family traditions are not that important to us.
I grew up a Catholic and later in my teens I turned into an agnostic. Nobody in my family or in my social circles seemed to care so much about it, life went on with no problems.
That is not the case in Muslim families, an apostate has to face life-changing experiences once they make the decision to abandon Islam. In most cases, they have to run away and leave their families and friends for fear of retaliation.
The misbehavior of a daughter or an apostate in the family can bring so much shame to a Muslim family in a way we westerners cannot comprehend.
Why is this happening in 2019 just as it happened in the middle ages?
Is it ignorance?
Is it cultural?
Is it Islam or Islamic culture?

Where did you get your numbers from?

 

[sooda]

Is that why there are pressures to reform in the middle east? Better education, allowing females an education, and no dogmatic teaching of the Quran that doesn't promote extremism? Getting that education is wanted by many.

The problem is that there are demands to not allow it, and violence and terrorist groups dedicated to preventing that. The middle east needs people to help them shoulder those risks, not dismiss them and leave everyone there to fend for themselves.

Who are you talking about?

 

[sooda]

Notice the quotation marks, those aren't my words it's a source I was paraphrasing.

"What are you talking about?
Where exactly are the most concentrated and serious occurrences?"

"Though it takes different shapes and appears with varied frequency from region to region, it afflicts all societies. Patriarchal societies (i.e., all societies to one degree or another) sometimes ‘justify’ some of this violence as the consequence of rage triggered in ‘crimes of passion.’ Other forms of violence against women, such as honor killings, can involve premeditation and even the coordination of several people, including women related to the victim. In those parts of the world plagued worst by violence against women, legal systems tend to offer official or unofficial leniency for the men who commit it.

Honor crimes are only part of the larger phenomenon of femicide, or the murder of a woman for some reason associated with her gender. The women and girls who are the victims of such violence are attacked because they are perceived to have violated some profound expectation of how women are supposed to act in their society. In the Mediterranean region, especially the Middle East and North Africa, as well as South Asia, affronts are to the ‘honor’ of the woman or her family."

From the aforementioned source.

Good grief.. Crimes against women in the US are rampant. Women are murdered by husbands and boyfriends all the time.

 

[sooda]

I had 9 years living fully immersed in Islam. Before that I was Evangelical Christian for 33 years. I believe that Islam is just as messed up as Christianity, and Islamic cultures need to really educate themselves. If you wish to blame these things on Muslims, what would you do, wipe them all out? Not being argumentative at all. I know lots of Muslims that are very sweet people. Kill them too? I don't have a good answer.

There is a Muslim Family that lives up near Leicester. They and all their family appear to be sweet and loving. They are on Youtube and she sells Hijabs.

Violence against women in the United States - Wikipedia
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Violence_against_women_in_the_United_States

Violence against women in the United States is the use of domestic abuse, murder, sex-trafficking, rape and assault against women in the United States. It has been recognized as a public health concern. Culture in the United States has led towards the trivialization of violence towards women, with media in the United States possibly contributing to making women-directed violence appear unimportant to the public.

 

[Vee]

Why is this happening in 2019 just as it happened in the middle ages?
Is it ignorance?
Is it cultural?
Is it Islam or Islamic culture?

It's all of the above.
One of the reasons why this happens is because of the way women are seen in the Islamic culture. Until they learn that women are in no way inferior to men and that they have the right to be respected and make decisions about their lives and futures on their own, women are going to continue to suffer this kind of injustice.
Another thing that makes it possible for this to happen is the involvement of religion in civil life. If they were separated, people who commit this kind of barbaric act would be punished, hopefully spending the rest of their lives in jail, and that would serve as an example to others. But in Muslim countries that doesn't happen so people feel free to kill their own family members based on their belief that this somehow cleans the name of the family.
The only way honor killings and other barbaric actions will ever end, is to completely restructure the societies of the countries that allow such things. Something tells me most people in those countries wouldn't accept the necessary changes.

 

[Raymann]

Where did you get your numbers from?

See this post

Is that why there are pressures to reform in the middle east? Better education, allowing females an education, and no dogmatic teaching of the Quran that doesn't promote extremism? Getting that education is wanted by many. The problem is that there are demands to not allow it, and violence and terrorist groups dedicated to preventing that. The middle east needs people to help them shoulder those risks, not dismiss them and leave everyone there to fend for themselves.

I'm very pessimistic about changes in Muslims countries.
We probably would see civil wars before changes are made.

Good grief.. Crimes against women in the US are rampant. Women are murdered by husbands and boyfriends all the time.

Yes, you are right, crimes against women are rampant but who is committing those crimes?
We are talking about "Honor Killings" and in the US 85% of the cases are committed by Muslims.

 

[Ellen Brown]

Violence against women in the United States - Wikipedia
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Violence_against_women_in_the_United_States

Violence against women in the United States is the use of domestic abuse, murder, sex-trafficking, rape and assault against women in the United States. It has been recognized as a public health concern. Culture in the United States has led towards the trivialization of violence towards women, with media in the United States possibly contributing to making women-directed violence appear unimportant to the public.

Perhaps ??? this is partially related to the Anthropology of Homo Sapiens, AND to Genesis 3:16 ? I've had a long time to observe humans from the outside. My social situation really does put me on the outside, in the position of an observer. I think that males and females are in a sort of "dance" related to some very primitive needs? We've all heard this a hundred times, but quickly seem to forget. Thousands of years ago, when sentient beings were just getting started, the major drive might have been procreation. The woman was occupied with being largely incapacitated with child bearing and occupied with child rearing. The Man wound up with the responsibility of killing animals that were often much larger than him. Testosterone gave men courage to do very frightening and dangerous things, while Estrogen was shaping the bodies of women to fulfil their role.

I have no idea when this hormonal dance started? Perhaps it was from the beginning?

I think that presently, men think they own women, and often their conduct is an offshoot of that thought. It is a fallacy that is perpetuated by cultural mores, human brain construction, and hormones. I don't think that divorce, the supposed end of a relationship turns that idea in a male off. I'm well acquainted with the interplay between the sexes. I have a friend who shows up to sleep at my apartment with her little boy because she is afraid of her X. I don't get codependent about all this, but only seek to insure the safety of another human. Her X is convinced I was going to shoot him once. That is not the case, but I don't mind if he thinks that.

My own daughter is in a similar situation with her X but he seems much less neanderthal.

I don't think this issue is going away. Sad that.

 

[sooda]

It's all of the above.
One of the reasons why this happens is because of the way women are seen in the Islamic culture. Until they learn that women are in no way inferior to men and that they have the right to be respected and make decisions about their lives and futures on their own, women are going to continue to suffer this kind of injustice.
Another thing that makes it possible for this to happen is the involvement of religion in civil life. If they were separated, people who commit this kind of barbaric act would be punished, hopefully spending the rest of their lives in jail, and that would serve as an example to others. But in Muslim countries that doesn't happen so people feel free to kill their own family members based on their belief that this somehow cleans the name of the family.
The only way honor killings and other barbaric actions will ever end, is to completely restructure the societies of the countries that allow such things. Something tells me most people in those countries wouldn't accept the necessary changes.

You speaking for Muslims? Which Muslim countries have you lived in?

 

[sooda]

Violence against women in the United States - Wikipedia
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Violence_against_women_in_the_United_States

Violence against women in the United States is the use of domestic abuse, murder, sex-trafficking, rape and assault against women in the United States.

It has been recognized as a public health concern. Culture in the United States has led towards the trivialization of violence towards women, with media in the United States possibly contributing to making women-directed violence appear unimportant to the public.

 

[A Vestigial Mote]

Second, sensationalism over Islam deflects from a reality that many men are loath to admit: that violence against women is a global problem with roots much deeper than the doctrines of one religion or the features of one culture. It needs to be addressed as such.

This seems to me a red herring.

The issue at hand (even in the article) is "honor killings." This involves (to my mind) two components... killing (as in someone actually dies) and honor (as in the killing was done by someone else who felt personal dishonor/disgrace at the victim's action). And then the article makes this turn on a dime and specifically goes after "men," saying that they are loathe to admit that violence against women is a global problem. What? Again... we're talking not about "violence" - but about specific violent actions that lead directly to killing. And we're not talking about men or women - we're talking about ANYONE killed because their family/society saw their otherwise legal personal choices/actions as casting a negative light on said family/society. I understand that this may happen most often to women - I do - but I don't AT ALL see how changing everyone's outlook on violence against women prevents other family members of those women from feeling disgraced/dishonored by certain actions of theirs, and then in some of those cases the feelings of being dishonored leading to those people choosing to kill the perpetrating family member. I don't see the connection.

Are we really going to say that it is an unspoken acceptance of violence against women that is at the root of honor killings? Do all of the situations within which someone feels dishonored enough to kill someone else over it occur when a woman is the one seen as bringing dishonor? And is the honor killing only occurring because violence against women in general maintains some level of "acceptance?"

It seems to me that the person who wrote the article only had very flimsy reasons that Islam should be left out of the discussion regarding "honor killings." Which, to me, says something. I honestly don't know how much Islam or Islamic-based culture is invested in honor killings more or less than any other... but based on the content of this article, I would feel compelled to guess that someone was trying to excuse something they know is a problem by pointing fingers everywhere and anywhere else... it reads like desperation, honestly.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

I'm very pessimistic about changes in Muslims countries.
We probably would see civil wars before changes are made.

Theyve been at war. But that's no reason to abandon those who are fighting for change and gradually seeing it. Those are the Muslims we need to focus on and promote here, not terrorists, and certainly not condemn native-born criticism as bigoted.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Who are you talking about?

Im talking about the "Muslim world" as a whole. It wasn't too long ago when places like Iran looked like modern, developed nations. Then a nasty extremist coop took power. And people there are fighting to get back to that. It's a steep uphill struggle, but it is happening.

 

[sooda]

Theyve been at war. But that's no reason to abandon those who are fighting for change and gradually seeing it. Those are the Muslims we need to focus on and promote here, not terrorists, and certainly not condemn native-born criticism as bigoted.

Are you opposed to violence against women in the US?

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Are you opposed to violence against women in the US?

Im opposed to violence in general beyond defending oneself.

 

[sooda]

Im talking about the "Muslim world" as a whole. It wasn't too long ago when places like Iran looked like modern, developed nations. Then a nasty extremist coop took power. And people there are fighting to get back to that. It's a steep uphill struggle, but it is happening.

I haven't been to Iran in years and years so I don't know what its like now.

 

[sooda]

Im opposed to violence in general.

Then perhaps we should concentrate on the home front and quit stewing about rural Afghanistan.

 

[LuisDantas]

This makes me sad.

It actually makes me sad as well, albeit probably for significantly different reasons than yours.

We all would be very much to the better were it not the case, if Islaam had true religious merit and decent self-correction mechanisms.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Then perhaps we should concentrate on the home front and quit stewing about rural Afghanistan.

These problems aren't just rural Afghanistan, but urban Saudi Arabia, Iran, and Egypt. They've also crep to the homefront of western society, and several of their practices are simply unacceptable here. Those mostly coming here leave it behind, but there is recruiting here for those who want us dead, and sometimes they do get here with the intent of attacking us. War is not the appropriate response, but we can't ignore the fact the problems do occasionally get brought to our doorstep.