Honor Killings. Why is Islam the main culprit?

[IndigoChild5559]

Honor killings are not actually Islamic. They are Arabic culture, which is strongly associated with Islam but not really the same thing. When Islam spread, Arabic culture spread with it. Thus you tend to have honor killings throughout African and Asian Muslim countries and wherever their immigrants have gone.

In general, family honor is a prized ethic among those cultures who in the past have been nomadic herders. Exactly how family honor is defined varies from area to area.

 

[Raymann]

Islam means "submission to God", God in Islam being the transcendent absolute. Early "Islam" was not an organized 'religion', you can do mental gymnastics all you want but I'm just stating facts here.

Wrong, Islam has always been the most organized religion that has ever existed. Islam has a political and social-economic system all wrapped into one.
Islam expanded in the early ages thanks to this all in one organization. Nothing fancy but very strong militarily and relentless in pursuit of new conquests.
Islam would have conquered the world if it wasn't for some Christians who decided enough is enough and organized the Crusades.

There is nothing to 'apostize' from when the Qur'an as well as the ahadith of Muhammad make it clear that Islam is a personal path not based on adherence to any given group.

You said it. An apostate is someone who abandons that personal path to Allah which by the way is the same path that all other Muslims follow.

I really have no reason to give wikiislam any attention, it's always proven itself to be an anus hair.

I didn't ask you to give WikiIslam any attention I asked you to give the Quran, Hadith and your trusty Islamic Scholars your attention.
It doesn't matter who quotes the Quran, the verses don't change just because WikiIslam quoted them.

Thanks for not wasting my time.

 

[FooYang]

Wrong, Islam has always been the most organized religion that has ever existed.

Wrong, also you should stop speaking of Islam as if it's a person or an object because it isn't.

Islam has a political and social-economic system all wrapped into one.

Not particularly, no. It has structures to help inspire one but there is nothing inherently like this, especially in the Prophet's own lifetime. But in the most generalized sense, you can say it's more socio-economic than political, as for the most part it politically deals with autonomy within the ummah rather than any form of centralization because there are no leaders (even of those four Sunni caliphates which did not deal with spiritual matters, just the overall running of things), which applies today more than ever.
This is also setting aside that multiple Muslims from the same family may have radically different political persuasions. Raymann, you've got to realize how dangerous your generalizations are and also how unhelpful they are.

Islam expanded in the early ages thanks to this all in one organization. Nothing fancy but very strong militarily and relentless in pursuit of new conquests.
Islam would have conquered the world if it wasn't for some Christians who decided enough is enough and organized the Crusades.

Now you're simply off topic here. Even in the crusades, you're dealing with quite a few different Islamic communities (with differing views, even turning on each other due to human fallibility) over a number of centuries, dealing with multiple Christian (moreso than Jewish) communities over a number of centuries. Aside from this, the crusades was actually a very interesting part of history that tends to be viewed with rose-tinted glasses, when there was more to it all than just fighting (aside from it not being specifically religious-based the whole time).

You said it. An apostate is someone who abandons that personal path to Allah which by the way is the same path that all other Muslims follow.

Specify what you are talking about please. These generalities are not helping, especially after you've been shown to think better (aka, with more detail and clearer observation).

 

[oldbadger]

1 honor killing is reported every 4 weeks in the UK.
The problem is that most honor killings are not reported so the number of killings is actually scarily higher.
The reason for not reporting these killings is obvious, most of them are done by the family of the victim.
In most cases, the whole community knows what has happened but they all keep silence because what has been done was done following an old Islamic tradition.
The family couldn't take the shame brought upon them by their own daughter when she was seen kissing with an unapproved boyfriend.
An emergency family meeting took place and her fate was decided right there. The penalty was death.
Was that home made Islamic justice? Ancient tribal traditions? or other Islamic cultural reasons are to blame?

I understand that honor killings are not part of the Islamic Scriptures but then how do we explain that most cases happen in Islamic countries or are done by Muslims even in western countries?
A recent survey showed that 91 percent of honor killings worldwide are committed by Muslims, and 84 percent of honor killings in the United States were done by Muslims.
So please don't even try to say that Islam has nothing to do with it.
Islam has a lot to do with it but we don't know exactly how Islam is to blame in this kind of crime.
Is it more shameful that your daughter doesn't dress appropriately than your decision to kill her?
It doesn't make any sense to me but I'm a westerner and family traditions are not that important to us.
I grew up a Catholic and later in my teens I turned into an agnostic. Nobody in my family or in my social circles seemed to care so much about it, life went on with no problems.
That is not the case in Muslim families, an apostate has to face life-changing experiences once they make the decision to abandon Islam. In most cases, they have to run away and leave their families and friends for fear of retaliation.
The misbehavior of a daughter or an apostate in the family can bring so much shame to a Muslim family in a way we westerners cannot comprehend.
Why is this happening in 2019 just as it happened in the middle ages?
Is it ignorance?
Is it cultural?
Is it Islam or Islamic culture?

Where do you live?

Question:-
How would you deter, reduce or possibly end honour attacks and killings?

 

[Raymann]

The article didn't deny it, it merely highlights that honor killings are no more Islamic than the KKK hanging blacks in the name of Christianity. The source clearly indicates that honor killings happen in other parts of the world in different communities that aren't Muslim so we shouldn't view honor killings as something Islamic.

My point is that I don't care who invented "Honor Killings".
I also don't see why is important to point out that some communities in Central America do "Honor Killings" when they are not Muslims at all.
I don't see "Honor Killings" as a Muslim exclusive tradition.
The point is that Muslims commit the overwhelming majority of crimes worldwide, that's the issue here. Whether the 91% figure is accurate or not is irrelevant, we all know that Muslims are by far the ones committing most of the "Honor Killings around the world.

It has been found that, in upper Egypt, Coptic families are as likely as Muslims to commit honor killing;

That is total BS, I would need to see some numbers to believe it.

Where do you live?
Question:-
How would you deter, reduce or possibly end honour attacks and killings?

New York City.
Educate people. We are all individual persons, My parents and family don't own me and don't own my mind.
Respect me as an individual and a unique human being. Don't expect me to be you nor expect me to live like you.
I guess I could go on and on but you get the idea.

 

[stvdv]

Well I found it the only appropriate reply. I appreciate your input though, your personal opinions are very helpful.

You are welcome.

I appreciate your opinion though. Very helpful indeed.

 

[Epic Beard Man]

I also don't see why is important to point out that some communities in Central America do "Honor Killings" when they are not Muslims at all.

Well considering you named your thread:

Honor Killings. Why is Islam the main culprit?

I assumed my usage of that source was to counter any idea that Islam is the result of honor killings.

I don't see "Honor Killings" as a Muslim exclusive tradition.

Your thread title begs to differ.

The point is that Muslims commit the overwhelming majority of crimes worldwide

General statistics on crime among the Muslim demographic was not the focus of your thread. You specifically wanted to address honor killings. Now you're appearing disingenuous and moving goal posts now.

we all know that Muslims are by far the ones committing most of the "Honor Killings around the world.

What is your overall point?

That is total BS, I would need to see some numbers to believe it.

I gave you the source, now do your due diligence and actually do research using the source I gave you, it's not that hard.

New York City.

At least you're not from Florida, but for a New York resident I'd expect you to at least have a progressive mindset. You're rather obtuse and quite biased in your views.

 

[Shad]

It is cultural and subjective in subject (idea, religion, tradition, etc), what code of honour is breached and who is affected typically heads of family. Cultures with heavy focus on family ties develop such codes all the time. China and Japan both developed the concepts before/without Islam. Islam happens to have focused ideas on family structure thus become a subject. These days Western Christian will shame and/or exile non-conformist from the family instead of killing them. The core idea minus murder is the same. X persons acts reflect upon the family thus the family takes actions.

 

[Epic Beard Man]

Honor killings are not actually Islamic. They are Arabic culture, which is strongly associated with Islam but not really the same thing. When Islam spread, Arabic culture spread with it. Thus you tend to have honor killings throughout African and Asian Muslim countries and wherever their immigrants have gone.

In general, family honor is a prized ethic among those cultures who in the past have been nomadic herders. Exactly how family honor is defined varies from area to area.

@Raymann

 

[A Vestigial Mote]

The reason why the writer left out Islam is because Islam is against femicide as well as infanticide.

And does this stop some Islamic people/cultures.etc. from committing or tacitly condoning these "honor killings?"

This is akin to people pointing at Christians who are materialistic even though that breaks with the prescriptions within their scripture as to how to live their lives. Or if we want to get to a point exactly like this, how about people who refuse medical care for themselves or their children in favor of prayer?

It is partially about pointing out hypocrisy... specifically highlighting the fact that Islam is "against" these things, and yet Muslims commit them. We ask the same sorts of questions about Christians who commit atrocious acts even though they supposedly know better. And if the act seems to be part and parcel of the belief-system - like those people who refuse medical treatment in favor of prayer - then we ask: "What is it about Christianity that causes this dangerous behavior?"

What, in your estimation, makes Islam exempt from having these types of conversations about Muslims?

 

[Shad]

The reason why the writer left out Islam is because Islam is against femicide as well as infanticide.

Neither of those directly addressed honor as the sole factor. Honor killing is typically about a breach of codes by the victim.

 

[Epic Beard Man]

And does this stop some Islamic people/cultures.etc. from committing or tacitly condoning these "honor killings?"

Does being Christian stop you from being a racist? You must understand some people are religious by culture and very few by practice. Again, you're referring to specific ethnic cultures not the religion itself that is the issue here.

specifically highlighting the fact that Islam is "against" these things, and yet Muslims commit them.

Welcome to humanity where we ought to do the tasks asked of us in our respective faiths yet we end up doing the exact opposite.

And if the act seems to be part and parcel of the belief-system

As it has been pointed out to you these actions are not a part of the belief system. I'm not the only one here that has educated you on this already.

What, in your estimation, makes Islam exempt from having these types of conversations about Muslims?

Because honor killings is neither Islamic, nor in its doctrine.

 

[Epic Beard Man]

Neither of those directly addressed honor as the sole factor. Honor killing is typically about a breach of codes by the victim.

You're late to the party as I've already addressed this.

 

[Shad]

You're late to the party as I've already addressed this.

You addressed it incorrectly by using two subjects out of context to the topic being discussed. One could argue apostasy as the rational for honor killing thus bypassing your point.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

You did notice that I was careful to point out that Muslims are not the only "humans" to commit this kind of crime, didn't you?
The problem is that Muslims commit the overwhelming majority of the crimes so how can we possibly omit to mention that something is wrong in the Islamic community?

Is it true that the overwhelming majority of "honour" killings are done by Muslims? From what I gather, the practice is prevalent in Hindu communities as well.

 

[Epic Beard Man]

You addressed it incorrectly by using two subjects out of context to the topic being discussed. One could argue apostasy as the rational for honor killing thus bypassing your point.

Um no, which post are you referring to?

 

[Epic Beard Man]

Is it true that the overwhelming majority of "honour" killings are done by Muslims? From what I gather, the practice is prevalent in Hindu communities as well.

Yup

'Honour' crimes in India: An assault on women's autonomy

I suspect the OP largely ignores this (despite proclaiming to acknowledge it) rather wants to emphasize that this is a religious act.

 

[A Vestigial Mote]

Because honor killings is neither Islamic, nor in its doctrine.

And yet we must ask ourselves whether the majority-held belief set has anything to do with something that occurs with frequency like this within a culture while not occurring as often in other cultures - the same would hold true for Indian (or any other) honor killings. If a belief-set fundamentally affects the people believing it (which we can easily assume that it most certainly does) than it is very possibly a largely contributing factor to any aspect of that culture that manifests - whether positive or negative.

For example, the mass-shootings happening in the U.S. What is it about the U.S. that sees these things happening here and not elsewhere with as great a frequency? Do you think that our culture would be averse to questioning whether or not Christianity played some part? With as horrible as mass-shootings are, we'd all better be willing to scrutinize ANY aspect of our culture that might play a part. To not do so is negligence. And if the belief set is scrutinized and nothing is turned up, then so be it. But don't ever pretend that any brand of belief is above scrutiny, just because "X" isn't in their doctrine. Screw that. These things have wide-reaching effects - that much is entirely obvious.

And again, I would bet you have no rebuttal for my point about the parallel of individual Christians refusing medical treatment in favor of prayer. In that particular case, the tie-together of the act and the religion are extremely obvious, granted, but any Christian group could easily just state (like you are doing) that "the scriptures don't say anything about refusing medical treatment", and point, instead, to the responsibility of the individual... but at the heart of the issue is when this particular individual was paired with the ideas present in Christianity. And I would maintain that they are mostly ideas that do not have reality-based support/backing/evidence, etc. - and that the issue should be addressed, and part of the responsibility most certainly lies in the hands of those pushing Christianity as "truth" for others to consume - because ideas like "just pray about it, and you will receive" ARE present in The Bible, and can be interpreted any way anyone chooses. Just as passages against women's equality to men, or passages saying that infidels deserve death ARE present in the Quran. I don't care how much the text advocates AGAINST certain things if it also makes mentions FOR those same things. It's called contradiction, and it exists, and it is there for anyone to take advantage of... and because this is religion we're talking about here, the person taking advantage can claim impunity - because they can point to words that are supposedly FROM GOD supporting their actions. And again, I don't care if there are words also against their actions in the same text. That doesn't matter - the failure is already there, written, and people OBVIOUSLY pick and choose what they want from these stupid, inane, split-personality-disordered texts.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Yes, but unlike the Bible, the Qur'an does have verses speaking against doing as such. Also, unlike the Bible (which is not a revelation from God, but rather a bunch of narratives/biographies), the Qur'an does emphasize to it's audience to actually contemplate deeply and reflect on the things they read. Not doing so, is the true form of 'blasphemy' according to the Qur'an.

The Bible says all that with things like turn the other check and let he who is without sin cast the first stone. But it also says to kill your child if they worship another god.

Actually observant Muslims typically follow a fiqh or Jurisprudence which depending on the school of thought you follow, has a particular interpretation of Quranic text and law.

True Christians do this and don't do that. that. Christians redeemed believe Jesus is god. Except those who believe that view is blasphemous or outright reject it otherwise.

Judaism is Judaism.

While that is true, the god of Abraham and laws given to Moses are foundations of all religions dedicated to Jehavoh, and they all read what the Jews know as the Tanakhn - even if they have a poor understanding of it. To the Muslims, the Qur'an is their primary text, but they are encouraged to read the Bible. They believe it has been corrupted, but they still believe those are prophets of Allah.

 

[Epic Beard Man]

True Christians do this and don't do that. that.

I didn't say the word "true" I said observant. True is relative to each individual.

Christians redeemed believe Jesus is god. Except those who believe that view is blasphemous or outright reject it otherwise.

I'm aware which is why I left long ago. I'm aware of the hypocrisy surrounding this.