Honor Killings. Why is Islam the main culprit?

[Raymann]

I assumed my usage of that source was to counter any idea that Islam is the result of honor killings.

The article tries to demonstrate that Islam is not the only and exclusive reason for "Honor Killings". It almost tries to undermine that Islam has anything to do with it.
The problem is that that has never been in dispute.
The title:
Honor Killings. Why is Islam the main culprit?
It implies that we are going to investigate why the community that commits most of the Honor Killing crimes do so.
We are investigating Islam here and not any Central America communities. That's what the title implies.
Why are we only investigating Islam?
Because the statistics show that Islam or if you prefer "Muslims" are responsible for most of the offenses.

General statistics on crime among the Muslim demographic was not the focus of your thread.

You're right, when I said "crimes" I meant "Honor Killing crimes" and not all the other types of crimes.

What is your overall point?

Again, to find the reasons that link Islam or Islamic culture to "Honor Killings".

I gave you the source, now do your due diligence and actually do research using the source I gave you, it's not that hard.

Your source doesn't seem to have based the article on any reliable study.
You linked the source of the article not the source of any study about the topic.
Anyway, I found independent sources who confirm my claims are correct.

At least you're not from Florida, but for a New York resident I'd expect you to at least have a progressive mindset. You're rather obtuse and quite biased in your views.

Isn't that stereotyping?

 

[Shadow Wolf]

I didn't say the word "true" I said observant. True is relative to each individual.

It doesnt matter the word choice; it's the same "no true Scott" reasoning.

 

[loverofhumanity]

1 honor killing is reported every 4 weeks in the UK.
The problem is that most honor killings are not reported so the number of killings is actually scarily higher.
The reason for not reporting these killings is obvious, most of them are done by the family of the victim.
In most cases, the whole community knows what has happened but they all keep silence because what has been done was done following an old Islamic tradition.
The family couldn't take the shame brought upon them by their own daughter when she was seen kissing with an unapproved boyfriend.
An emergency family meeting took place and her fate was decided right there. The penalty was death.
Was that home made Islamic justice? Ancient tribal traditions? or other Islamic cultural reasons are to blame?

I understand that honor killings are not part of the Islamic Scriptures but then how do we explain that most cases happen in Islamic countries or are done by Muslims even in western countries?
A recent survey showed that 91 percent of honor killings worldwide are committed by Muslims, and 84 percent of honor killings in the United States were done by Muslims.
So please don't even try to say that Islam has nothing to do with it.
Islam has a lot to do with it but we don't know exactly how Islam is to blame in this kind of crime.
Is it more shameful that your daughter doesn't dress appropriately than your decision to kill her?
It doesn't make any sense to me but I'm a westerner and family traditions are not that important to us.
I grew up a Catholic and later in my teens I turned into an agnostic. Nobody in my family or in my social circles seemed to care so much about it, life went on with no problems.
That is not the case in Muslim families, an apostate has to face life-changing experiences once they make the decision to abandon Islam. In most cases, they have to run away and leave their families and friends for fear of retaliation.
The misbehavior of a daughter or an apostate in the family can bring so much shame to a Muslim family in a way we westerners cannot comprehend.
Why is this happening in 2019 just as it happened in the middle ages?
Is it ignorance?
Is it cultural?
Is it Islam or Islamic culture?

I think it is most important to distinguish clearly between the Islam taught by Muhammad and the Quran from that taught by Mullas and Islamic religious figures.

The religion of Islam as taught by Muhammad abhors such detestable acts and barbaric behaviour as we have seen instigated by some fanatical religious clerics also with regards to terrorist attacks upon innocent people.

In all such cases these incidents in no wise represent what Prophet Muhammad and the Quran taught.

 

[Epic Beard Man]

The article tries to demonstrate that Islam is not the only and exclusive reason for "Honor Killings".

Wrong it doesn't say that, in fact, the heading says otherwise:

Islam is not the Cause of Honor Killings. It’s Part of the Solution

It almost tries to undermine that Islam has anything to do with it.

Because it doesn't. I don't understand, well, excuse me I do understand. You see you made this thread with the intent to rant your biased views. You're not looking for information that may contradict your own biases. Several people me among them clearly have shown you that this is not a religious thing, rather, it is cultural. There is nothing "Islamic" about honor killings.

The title:

Honor Killings. Why is Islam the main culprit?

Link to your source please....

It implies that we are going to investigate why the community that commits most of the Honor Killing crimes do so.

Ok, but again Islam does not condone nor is it a part of its doctrine to kill in the name of family honor. The only reason I can think subjects like this comes up is that there are individuals who have an anti-Islamic agenda. This is no different than a Muslim who seeks to use history regarding Christianity and its hand in human conflicts through time.

Why are we only investigating Islam?

Why are you when I've supplied information already that its not up for being investigated?

Because the statistics show that Islam or if you prefer "Muslims" are responsible for most of the offenses.

I need to see your link and see the statistics for myself and compare this with other information. More importantly, in understanding demographics are you going to continue to allocate religion and not extreme patriarchal customs?

Again, to find the reasons that link Islam or Islamic culture to "Honor Killings".

There is no link. You're citing some statistics that show that the demographic of people committing these crimes are of the Muslim faith, but you're failing to show whether religion is the reason for it, and its not the reason.

Your source doesn't seem to have based the article on any reliable study.

My source was a research article reference how is not reliable? Did you read the article after you researched it or did you look at the reference and didn't think to look it up?

You linked the source of the article not the source of any study about the topic.

I did link it, Jesus, I'll do it again:

It has been found that, in upper Egypt, Coptic families are as likely as Muslims to commit honor killing; Recep Dogan, “Is Honour Killing a ‘Muslim Phenomenon’? Textual Interpretation and Cultural Representations,” Journal of Muslim Minority Affairs 31, no. 3 (2011): 423-440.

All you have to do is literally follow the above reference because it is a Journal and normally journals are referenced in a lot of research papers.

Anyway, I found independent sources who confirm my claims are correct.

Confirmation Bias, it does happen from time to time.

Isn't that stereotyping?

Sure it is. I think a lot of people from the south have a backwards mentality. You're displaying that here hence your lacking of having a progressive mindset. You see, I can do a decent debate, but when people outright want to dismiss evidence and merely want to only go off their own information as what you're doing, it makes debates pointless because you're displaying a lack of an open mind. Basically, this thread in a nutshell is to tell us in a rant that Islam is the reason honor killings happen. Now, I've shown you evidence that it isn't. Others have also shown you, yet you still continue to argue your point as if everyone else didn't just show you evidence that it isn't.

That to me is a waste of time in this discussion.

 

[Epic Beard Man]

It doesnt matter the word choice; it's the same "no true Scott" reasoning.

Not necessarily.

 

[Raymann]

Islam is not the Cause of Honor Killings. It’s Part of the Solution

Let me try to explain my point of view.
When I say Islam and I'm not referring to scriptures (Quran or Hadith) I am talking about the Islamic World in general.
Most Westerners (like me) cannot see the difference between pure Islamic behavior and Islamic cultural or tribal behavior.
If a study reveals that 91% of "Honor Killings" worldwide are committed by Muslims my first inclination would be to blame Islam.
Next, I find out "Honor Killings" are not in the Islamic scriptures but still Muslims are the ones responsible.
What do all Muslims around the world have in common?
Islam
What do all Muslims from any background and culture have in common?
Islam.
So there has to be some pure Islamic influence in terms of strict codes of behavior that pushes Muslims to the limit and end up committing these kinds of actions.
Example:
Under pure Islam, a wife cannot do A nor B nor C.
The husband finds her doing A and C and decides to kill her for it.
This is a case of Honor Killing which is not Islamic but it was done because the wife was not behaving in a pure Islamic way.
Am I getting my point across?
If I say Islam is partially to blame in this case I'm sure many would disagree.
But this is real life, and I bet something like this is happening.
What do you think?

 

[Raymann]

Islam is not the Cause of Honor Killings. It’s Part of the Solution

Islam is not the cause but Muslims (the members of Islam) are the main culprits.
You cannot say Islam has nothing to do with it.
How in hell Islam is part of the solution?

you made this thread with the intent to rant your biased views. You're not looking for information that may contradict your own biases.

How am I biased?
Biased against whom?
Biased against a Muslim who kills his daughter who by the way is Muslim too?
I'd love to save the life of that Muslim woman and condemn that Muslim man who killed her.
Am I biased because I'd love to save the life of that Saudi woman who begged the Saudi government to save her from his abusive father?
Do you realize that when I accuse a Muslim of committing an Honor killing the victim is usually a Muslim too?
Does that make me biased against Muslims?
Does that make any sense to you?
I'm defending a Muslim from the attack of another Muslim.
How am I biased against Muslims?
Stop being defensive and open your eyes.

Several people me among them clearly have shown you that this is not a religious thing, rather, it is cultural. There is nothing "Islamic" about honor killings.

Not even close, you haven't shown me anything remotely convincing that exonerates Islam from Honor Killings.
As I explained in my last post the reason doesn't have to be an explicit verse in the Quran.
The numbers don't lie, Honor Killings happen more often in the Islamic world for a reason.

Islam does not condone nor is it a part of its doctrine to kill in the name of family honor.

Pay attention.
I am not condoning Islam (the scriptures) I am trying to figure out why this happens more often in the Islamic world.
DO YOU UNDERSTAND?
I am defending the Muslim victims who are killed by other Muslims who use some Islamic traditions as an excuse.
This is not Muslims against the west nor Muslims against white women, this is in general Muslims against Muslims.

You're citing some statistics that show that the demographic of people committing these crimes are of the Muslim faith, but you're failing to show whether religion is the reason for it

The first and most important sign that gives you an idea that religion is part of the problem is the fact that the people responsible for the offenses ARE RELIGIOUS PEOPLE (MUSLIMS TO BE EXACT) as you acknowledge it.
You can deny it all you want and provide some fancy articles full of BS and lame excuses but the facts remain.

 

[Epic Beard Man]

Islam is not the cause but Muslims (the members of Islam) are the main culprits.

"Christianity is not the cause, but the Klu Klux Klan (members who proclaim to be Christian) are the main culprits of hatre crimes."

You cannot say Islam has nothing to do with it.

Yes I can, and have, and have supplied evidence that it's not responsible for it, you just do not accept the evidence.

How in hell Islam is part of the solution?

Read the freggin article, you have two eyes don't you?

How am I biased?

Because you keep harping on statistics when I've supplied references for you to review regarding that culture, not Islam, is the basis to which why these crimes happen. You have it in your mind to harp on your statistics which you failed to show in a link so I can review it. You want to continue to harp on information that confirms your viewpoint without giving an ounce of credence to another viewpoint that may challenge yours.

Biased against a Muslim who kills his daughter who by the way is Muslim too?

That person is a criminal not a Muslim because their crime is not sanctioned by their religion.

Am I biased because I'd love to save the life of that Saudi woman who begged the Saudi government to save her from his abusive father?

There is nothing wrong with feeling empathy and wanting to help someone, but when our passion blinds our reasoning to which we paint a broad brush on a religion and group of people it's wrong.

How am I biased against Muslims?

No, you're saying Islam is the cause. Your ignorant rant overshadows your quest to demonstrate sincerity and compassion. Your generalizations have reduced your sincerity to just baseless conjecture.

Not even close, you haven't shown me anything remotely convincing that exonerates Islam from Honor Killings.

Again, I have you just refuse to read the damn references. You're a lazy debater and thus far have wasted my time conversing with you. You're just another waste of time on the internet whining about something that has been discussed ad infinitum. You have thus made me disinterested in this subject so I'll move along and let you waste someone else's time.

 

[Shad]

Um no, which post are you referring to?

Post 65.

 

[Raymann]

"Christianity is not the cause, but the Klu Klux Klan (members who proclaim to be Christian) are the main culprits of hatre crimes."

Are you serious?
The KKK are anti-Catholics but obviously, you didn't know.
What else you didn't know?
Do you know that Catholics are the biggest denomination of Christians in the world?
Saying that the KKK represents Christianity is like saying that Boko Haram represents Islam.
You say I'm biased but I wouldn't even dare to say that Boko Haram represents Islam.

Yes I can,(say that Islam is not responsible) and have, and have supplied evidence that it's not responsible for it, you just do not accept the evidence.

No, you haven't, the same members of Islam (Muslims) who commit the crimes are always the first ones to scream loud and clear that they did it in the name of Allah.
You can say they're ignorants or find any other excuse but the fact remains they did it in the name of Allah.

Read the freggin article, you have two eyes don't you?

I think it's time you stop hiding behind that stupid article full of misinformation.

You have it in your mind to harp on your statistics which you failed to show in a link so I can review it.

I already told you that there are multiple articles on the internet using the study by Phyllis Chesler including Wikipedia
Here is an excerpt: "According to a study by Phyllis Chesler, in the 1989–2009 analysis of 172 honor killing incidents worldwide involving 230 victims, 91% of the perpetrators were Muslims. In North America, most killers (84%) were Muslim. In Europe, Muslims constituted an even larger majority (96%)."

That person (The father who had his daughter killed) is a criminal not a Muslim because their crime is not sanctioned by their religion.

Who are you to decide who is a Muslim and who is not?
Shouldn't that be Allah's job?
How presumptions of you.
By your standards then the 1.6 billion Muslims would be reduced to a mere few Millions.

No, you're saying Islam is the cause (of Honor Killings).

No, I didn't. Not entirely.
Look at the title again:
Why is Islam the main culprit?
The main culprit means the main factor, the underlying reason, the driving force but at the end not the criminal nor the perpetrator itself. Understood?
We cannot say Islam is the sole responsible.
It is not in the scriptures.
I would guess it has a lot to do with Islamic traditions and Islamic traditions come from Islam, don't they?

You have thus made me disinterested in this subject so I'll move along and let you waste someone else's time.

Yeah sure, move along with your little article under your arm, meanwhile, I have a job to do. I have to create awareness of the problems that affect your fellow Muslims while people like you (apologists) insist on scooping them under the rag.