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House Democrat Health Plan

Reverend Rick

Frubal Whore
Premium Member
Do you believe we could take a baby step towards national health care? Perhaps a bipartisan bill that addresses pre existing conditions, payment caps, portability, options where people could join plans across state lines, allowing us to purchase drugs from Canada and make the system voluntary? Should we address the costs of each option? Can we limit health care to United States citizens only? Could we address tort reform or at least be able to recieve health care at a reduced rate if we sign a wavier that reduces the doctor's liability?

I don't believe anyone would stand in the way of a voluntary national plan that reduces expenses.

The big issue is care availability and who is going to pay for it.
 

Kathryn

It was on fire when I laid down on it.
Rick, I agree.

And I'm still waiting for specific answers to the basic questions I asked.

The one answer I'm NOT waiting for is, "Trust the government to make it all better."
 

Copernicus

Industrial Strength Linguist
Do you believe we could take a baby step towards national health care? Perhaps a bipartisan bill that addresses pre existing conditions, payment caps, portability, options where people could join plans across state lines, allowing us to purchase drugs from Canada and make the system voluntary? Should we address the costs of each option? Can we limit health care to United States citizens only? Could we address tort reform or at least be able to recieve health care at a reduced rate if we sign a wavier that reduces the doctor's liability?

Bipartisanship should not be a requirement for this bill any more than it was for Social Security or Medicare, both of which came to us from partisan Democrats. However, a significant number of Democrats seem determined to make it so. So this bill will be full of the kind of half measures that you seem to agree to. Obama has already caved in to special interests that will protect high profits in the US drug industry. No cheaper drugs from Canada will be allowed. As for "tort reform", that appears to fix something that just isn't broken. When doctors and industry endander people through incompetence or malpractice, they should be held liable.

I don't believe anyone would stand in the way of a voluntary national plan that reduces expenses.
That is exactly what is happening with the current voluntary plan, and you are one of the ones who appears to be standing in the way.

The big issue is care availability and who is going to pay for it.
I completely agree. Health care is available to too few people and at too high a price.
 
Kathryn,

I think you're waaay off base about Medicare. The highly-respected Kaiser Commission on Medicaid and the Uninsured testified to the Senate in June 2009. http://www.kff.org/insurance/upload/7911.pdf

By design, Medicare only applies to people who first spend down all their income, all their assets, and all their savings, and STILL can't afford necessary meds.

In the very limited capacity that it is allowed to function, Medicare out-performs private insurers. This is consistent with the trend worldwide, where government insurance plans out-perform private ones. Private insurers either don't want to, or simply cannot cover people with long-term care needs. This includes long-term care for the elderly and disabled, and people with chronic illnesses. Long-term care cost $178 billion in 2006 (according to the Kaiser study), of which 63% was paid by Medicare/Medicaid, 22% was out-of-pocket, and only 9% was contributed by private insurance (Kaiser study).

So the problem with Medicaid, that it does not cover more people (like the working poor, not just the bankrupt), is caused by conservatives who oppose expanding Medicaid to more people, because they fear more government spending, etc. Then those same conservatives criticize Medicare for not reaching more people! And they take the limitations of the program, which they imposed on purpose, as evidence of government "inefficiency".

What they don't tell you is that the free market is so "efficient" that it makes 17-25% profits every year, takes our money when we are healthy and wealthy, and then wriggles out of covering people who need it most--- the elderly, and people with chronic conditions. I thought the whole point of paying for the expensive private insurance was that, some day, when you get a chronic disease or become elderly, you'll be covered. Oh, they'll cover you alright -- they'll chip in 9%. The rest will be out of your own pocket, most will be those "inefficient, wasteful" government programs, Medicaid and Medicare.

Conservatives also criticize Medicare for being so "expensive". Well of COURSE it's expensive, because we pay for the same thing (coverage for people who need it) twice over: once, to the private industry that SAYS they will cover people; and once, to the government that actually DOES cover people.

So, in short, conservatives observe the failures of our private system and then blame the limited public programs for not fixing everything; then they oppose any measures that would enable the public system to do more.

To quote from the Kaiser Commission:
"Medicare was enacted because the private health insurance market did not work for the elderly."​
Where the private market does "work", it suffers from
"high administrative costs, unaffordable premiums, exclusion based on health status, and complexity and lack of comparability across plans".
Ouch.

I laid out a lot of facts about health insurance, and carefully cited all my sources, on my blog (some of this post was reproduced from my blog): Frey vs. Frey: Healthcare: Just the facts, m'am.
 
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Kathryn,

Also I think you're off base about the uninsured in the U.S. (and this does not even include the UNDER-insured).
There are 45.7 million people without health insurance in the U.S. (2007 Census ). That's about 15% of our population. In all other wealthy nations, it's zero. Of those uninsured, 79% are U.S. citizens. The other 21% are immigrants, both legal and illegal. Furthermore:
"Non-citizens have less access to employer coverage because they are more likely to have low-wage jobs and work for firms that do not offer coverage. At the same time, they are often restricted from public coverage." (Kaiser Family Foundation key facts, and FactChek.org )
According to FactChek.org, citing the Kaiser study:
"What else can we say about the uninsured? More than 80 percent are from families in which at least one person works ... two thirds are near or below the poverty line ... nearly half are below the age of 30 ... whites make up two thirds of the population but less than half of the uninsured ...."
According to a 2004 report by the Institute of Medicine of the National Academies of Science:
"Lack of health insurance causes roughly 18,000 unnecessary deaths every year in the United States. Although America leads the world in spending on health care, it is the only wealthy, industrialized nation that does not ensure that all citizens have coverage."
Again, from my blog (the links work there).
 
Kathryn,

Sorry for the triple post, but.... also I think this idea that people "don't want" health insurance is absurd. They want health insurance. But it's expensive. If you are a responsible person who doesn't have a lot of money, you save it wherever possible. Do you really need that yearly checkup? Do you really need that $2,000 colonoscopy every 5 years to check for colon cancer? It might be a perfectly reasonable and sound decision for an individual to forgo these things, if they don't have a lot of money.

But that individual's decision is not a sound decision for our society as a whole. The problem is their PERSONAL decision affects the rest of us. When they get colon cancer, EVERYONE has to pay for it (because we don't just let people die), whether it's family/friends, or higher premiums for people on private insurance, or taxpayers (last resort). And that costs many times more than if we all chipped in to provide free colonoscopies for all at-risk persons. When people are bed-ridden in hospitals dying of cancer it costs tens of thousands of dollars per day. And then of course there are all the costs associated with people taking off work to grieve, and the social costs of more people sick/dying. And the cost of having more doctors specialize in colon cancer, instead of being in general family, preventative care. Because that's by far the most efficient way to combat cancer, heart disease, etc. is to have people go to a family doctor, regularly, and get preventative advice, treatment, tests, etc.

Private industry CANNOT take these things into account, no matter how well-intentioned the people who work in that industry, because they are constrained by the interests of one thing: short-term profit. The stockholders are only interested in that bottom line. They are very "efficient" in getting that, but this should not be confused with "efficiency" in the broad sense, as in, healthier people, lower health costs, longer life expectancies, higher satisfaction, less complexity/ambiguity of plans, etc.

The other thing about private industry is it cannot adjust costs for the poor, like the government can. So for example, we all pay (let's say) 5% of our income for taxes that pay for the fire department. We all contribute what we can, if you're poor you pay less because 5% of your income is less than 5% of a millionaire's income. But the idea is we all get the same basic fire department services that are necessary for a happy society. If one person's house catches on fire, that harms everyone, so we want to chip in and make sure everyone is protected from fire, because that protects everyone. And if you're rich, you can buy more than the basic public service, you can buy a fancy fire alarm system if you want. Private industry can't do this, in general, public programs can.

So we could have a public insurance program that is fair, where people pay what they can (X % of their income) and everyone gets the BASICS, preventative check-ups and cancer tests. If rich people want more, they can pay for a private insurance plan that covers more stuff (like cosmetic surgery or something) or they can pay out-of-pocket, like they already do. We will all save a lot of money by no longer having to pay for the incredibly expensive, private insurance plans for basic care, which don't actually deliver on basic care. Every civilized country in the world (except the US) includes basic health insurance as part of the deal you get for paying taxes, even if you're poor, just like roads, public transit, education, police, etc. In the long-run this lowers costs, even for the rich, who will pay higher taxes in the short-run. And it is FAR more ethical, and more fair than our current system, and we will be healthier and happier.

And by the way, there is NO reason a simple, basic test (like a colonoscopy) that can save lives should cost $2,000 to individuals.
 
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Kathryn

It was on fire when I laid down on it.
Like I said - I agree that our healthcare system needs to be reformed.

Still - no one, from the President to anyone on this forum, has answered the basic questions I have asked about the proposed bill.

I am not against healthcare reform. I AM against the current bill before the House, because of it's massive reach without quantative facts to prove cost efficiency, the depleted state of our budget, and because I am not getting answers to the few direct questions I have - questions that I believe are critical, not only for my own wellbeing, but for the overall wellbeing of the nation that I love and support.
 

themadhair

Well-Known Member
1. Why are you basing this bill on extending healthcare coverage to 50 million more people?
Answered above by Mr.Sprinkles.

2. Tell me how a government-run health care system will avoid becoming the Fannie Maes and Freddie Macs of health insurance.
Why do you assume that it should? As it stands right now the cost of premiums is skyrocketing while the level of coverage is plummeting. How can you rectify this situation without artificially increasing the level of competition those insurance companies have to deal with? No one can guarantee that a public run insurance company won’t collapse. There is no guarantee that can be given over that. I just don’t how you think this is a valid point when during the crash many major private firms like Lehman Brother also went under. Blaming government incompetence on that one when both private and public firms went under, and a major part in the collapse could arguably be laid at the feet of a certain 8-year tenure, seems a little off to me. Apples and oranges to an extent.

It should also be noted that there are countries that have health care with much more government intervention than that being proposed here without such major collapses. Bit of read herring methinks.

3. We are already short on doctors. Please tell me how we are going to recruit and retain doctors when they already are frustrated by Medicare and Medicaid red tape. Doctors generally are reimbursed at a lower rate under these plans.
See the sections entitled “MEDICARE GRADUATE MEDICAL EDUCATION” and “PROGRAM INTEGRITY” in the bill which answer the first part of your query. The second part of your query is dealt in section 1303 where payment incentives are given for primary care. The basic idea here is that by providing the best possible proactive primary care severe conditions are diagnosed and treated much earlier resulting in major savings overall. This makes good economic sense all round with healthier workers meaning less time off, more tax revenues, less negative impact on business operations, etc.



On that topic, we already have at least four government run health care programs - Medicare, Medicaid, VA hospitals and plans, and military hospitals. All four programs are notorious for ineptitude, waste, and callous treatment of patients.
I find it slightly bemusing that you seem to think the current situation in the private system is any better than the above. What do you base this claim on? Remember that the government option will have to compete with the private sector here so if you don’t like the government option you can choose to remain private.

The best indicator of future behavior is past behavior.
Are you even aware of what the past behaviour of the insurance companies even is here?

Honestly - is the assertion that Americans will actually become healthier and so reduce the cost of insurance and this program over time realistic?
In this case I firmly believe so. At present you have absolutely **** loads of cash being made for providing a **** poor product. That disparity, imo, provides more than enough wiggle room to improve care while reducing costs. Also the provisions for proactive approaches to health care will also be a money saver imo.

Who is going to foot the bill for their elder care?
Who would foot the bill without this reform? Let them die?

If I were an employer, and I had the option to drop the expensive health care coverage I currently provide, take a hit in the form of a penalty, but then cover those costs by charging my customers more - I might choose that option, thus forcing my employees to turn to the government plan, and raising the cost of living to my customers.
Employers can give crap coverage to their employees right now should they so choose. The situation you describe above pretty much currently exists, so I’m missing your point here.


5. Senator - will you be enrolling your own family in this plan?
Probably not due to the current federal employee health care plan being extremely good. Given that you can keep your current coverage I fail to see why you think this is a reasonable question.

Considering that over the next twenty years, the baby boomers will retire and therefore quit funneling income taxes into the system, while simultaneously requiring more care in their elder years. How is the government going to provide care for these millions of non-tax payers without some form of rationing?
Why do you only consider this a problem with reference to this bill? Do you think there won’t be a problem here with the current situation?

How does the goverment intend to fairly distribute the health care needs for all Americans, and simultaneously raise the capital needed from this large group of illegal aliens? Or are American citizens expected to foot the bill for that group as well?
Say an illegal immigrant was severely injured and take to hospital. Say further that he was required to undergo $100,000 worth of life saving surgery. Who foots that bill under the system as it currently stands?

Under this plan, will my tax dollars be used for such abortions?
Not unless The Hyde Amendment has been repealed since I last checked. It is possible that funding could be used for abortions at the state level in case of medical emergency or per the specific arrangements in those states, but that is already happening so isn’t an issue here and is no way increased by this bill.

I am an educated person with great reading skills.
Would do I, who doesn’t even live in your country, appear to have done much more research on this??? Extol your virtues if you must, but at least try to act on them. As I have said repeatedly now, ‘it’s too complicated’ is a pointless argument given that every bill over the last century is also too complicated.

I pay my REPRESENTATIVES to understand what they are voting on, and then to vote the will of their constituents. They have all sorts of resources and staff at their disposal - I don't.
There are a lot of resources out there. Why don’t you avail of some to become informed rather than moaning about it? Health Reform is pretty good even if a little preachy.
 

Kathryn

It was on fire when I laid down on it.
Bluff and buffoonery. Pie in the sky. Naivete.

Like I've said before - till I am blue in the face - I am not at all opposed to healthcare reform. This country definitely needs it.

However, I do not believe this is the bill we need.

By the way - regarding all those "answers" above that relied on this "reasoning":
As it stands right now

I find it slightly bemusing that you seem to think the current situation in the private system is any better than the above. What do you base this claim on?

Are you even aware of what the past behaviour of the insurance companies even is here?

Employers can give crap coverage to their employees right now should they so choose.

Do you think there won’t be a problem here with the current situation?

Who foots that bill under the system as it currently stands?

Who would foot the bill without this reform?

You're assuming that I think the system we have in place NOW is fine. It's NOT fine. But your constant assertion that "Well, we're not doing well with that issue NOW" does not give ANY merit to the proposed plan.

A form of double negative does not construe a clear answer to my specific questions.

Just because what we have right now is broken does not mean that the current bill is the fix.

There is such a thing as making a bad situation worse. Which is exactly what I think is about to happen.
 

themadhair

Well-Known Member
@ Kathryn

To sum up:

1) You don’t know what this bill contains.
2) You are too lazy to bother finding out.
3) Despite not knowing what this bill is about you hate it anyway.
4) You have at no stage responded to anything I have said.
5) You have absolutely nothing to offer as a better alternative.

Pretty much talking out of your cakehole it appears.
 

Reverend Rick

Frubal Whore
Premium Member
That is exactly what is happening with the current voluntary plan, and you are one of the ones who appears to be standing in the way.

No sir, you cannot blame this one on me and the Republicans. You all don't need us! You have the majority in both houses in congress and the Senate as well as a Democrat President.

Republicans have been shunned from a bipartisan bill, we are sitting on the side lines.

The real deal is, only 18% of Americans are Liberal while 36% are conservative. Both sides have their heels stuck in the mud and will not budge.

The moderates that supported Obama are declining and even many old folks who voted democratic are starting to rail against the health care plan.

Yes, your Democratic representatives want national health care. The only problem you all are having is, many of them want to be reelected more than they want to support the President.
 

tumbleweed41

Resident Liberal Hippie
Unless you believe that doctors are going home early because of their lack of patients, health care reform will not allow one more person to be seen on any given day.

Hundreds gathered at an old basketball arena in LA this morning to receive free medical care. Doctors from the Remote Area Medical Volunteer Corps were set to see 1,500 patients. They reached that limit by 5 a.m.
Free health care attracts droves in LA | Marketplace From American Public Media

Now, if this reform is so great, can someone please tell me why congress should not have to be on this program as well?

Because theirs is better. Everyone has the option to keep a better Insurance plan if they so choose.

People have said I am unable to be convinced of anything. Would someone please explain or direct me to where the tort reform section is within the health care bill?

If we really want to reduce medical costs, we could start by lowering the good doctors overhead right? Malpractice insurance is a big factor in health care expenses.

Several studies have found that various types of restrictions on malpractice liability can indeed reduce total awards and thereby lead to lower premiums for malpractice insurance. By themselves, however, such changes do not affect economic efficiency: they modify the distribution of gains and losses to individuals and groups but do not create benefits or costs for society as a whole. The evidence for indirect effects on efficiency--through changes in defensive medicine, the availability of medical care, or the extent of malpractice--is at best ambiguous.

See complete Congressional Budget Office report here.

Everyone wants portability when we leave a company. Who should have to pay for this? Adding the considerable expense to the top 5% of taxpayers seems to be a popular option.

The problem is, we have this economy problem and tax revenues are down. Perhaps we should fix the economy before we implement draconian taxes on the wealthy. They do not have unlimited funds to pay for the democrats never ending wish list of government run programs.

and just take their money? Oh, I know why we don't do that, we might need more money next year and they all would be gone.

We would not have anyone to demonise or sponge off of any more.

Overlooking the nonsensical "Why not just kill all the rich folks...", I am sure it should be obvious that a healthier America is a more productive America. A more productive America pours tax dollars into the Treasury.
 

Reverend Rick

Frubal Whore
Premium Member
I am sure it should be obvious that a healthier America is a more productive America. A more productive America pours tax dollars into the Treasury.


Actually if you exclude the people with preexisting conditions, most Americans who cannot afford health insurance do not make enough money to pay very many taxes.

The uneducated, unskilled people in this country have become a burden on the productive members of society. They need far more than they give. No matter how healthy they become, sadly they will remain mostly unproductive.

OK, time to lighten up a little. Obama said at a rally he would not pull the plug on grandma. There was a loud booing in the crowd. It was grandpa! :p
 

Father Heathen

Veteran Member
Actually if you exclude the people with preexisting conditions, most Americans who cannot afford health insurance do not make enough money to pay very many taxes.

The uneducated, unskilled people in this country have become a burden on the productive members of society. They need far more than they give. No matter how healthy they become, sadly they will remain mostly unproductive.

OK, time to lighten up a little. Obama said at a rally he would not pull the plug on grandma. There was a loud booing in the crowd. It was grandpa! :p

I come from a family of hard working factory workers, does the fact they never had a college education make them a burden upon society?
 
Like I said - I agree that our healthcare system needs to be reformed.

Still - no one, from the President to anyone on this forum, has answered the basic questions I have asked about the proposed bill.

I am not against healthcare reform. I AM against the current bill before the House, because of it's massive reach without quantative facts to prove cost efficiency, the depleted state of our budget, and because I am not getting answers to the few direct questions I have - questions that I believe are critical, not only for my own wellbeing, but for the overall wellbeing of the nation that I love and support.
Could you direct me to those questions? I'd like to consider them.
 

Copernicus

Industrial Strength Linguist
No sir, you cannot blame this one on me and the Republicans. You all don't need us! You have the majority in both houses in congress and the Senate as well as a Democrat President.

This is not about whose party is on top but what is best for the country. If you are not part of the solution, you are part of the problem. Some Democrats have been trying hard for bipartisan support, but Republicans have largely spurned them.

Republicans have been shunned from a bipartisan bill, we are sitting on the side lines.

This is utterly false. Despite the fact that no Republican seems willing to vote for health care reform (out of loyalty to their party rather than their constituents), many Republican amendments have already been incorporated into the various bills under consideration. The chair of the Finance Committee, Max Baucus, has taken a lot of heat from his own party for his efforts to gain bipartisan support for a bill that Republicans won't vote for under any circumstances.

The real deal is, only 18% of Americans are Liberal while 36% are conservative. Both sides have their heels stuck in the mud and will not budge.

No kidding? Well, you must be really puzzled as to why Barack "Hussein" Obama was elected President, despite that overwhelming advantage. Maybe labels don't mean as much to voters as you think they do.

The moderates that supported Obama are declining and even many old folks who voted democratic are starting to rail against the health care plan.

Are you talking about the "old folks" on Medicare? You know as well as I do what astroturfing is. This bill is for people who aren't "old folks". Once you get to 65, you get "socialized medicine" (American style, anyway). It isn't as good as that in Europe or Canada, but the fact is that private insurance companies would dump "old folks" in a heartbeat if it were left up to them.

Yes, your Democratic representatives want national health care. The only problem you all are having is, many of them want to be reelected more than they want to support the President.

Funny you should bring that up. Congress recently was given the option to dump Medicare, and not a single Republican voted to do it. Do you have any idea why?
 

Reverend Rick

Frubal Whore
Premium Member
No kidding? Well, you must be really puzzled as to why Barack "Hussein" Obama was elected President, despite that overwhelming advantage. Maybe labels don't mean as much to voters as you think they do.
Barack ran as a moderate and took the lions share of their vote. He is out of the sheep's clothing now and showing his true core beliefs now which is why his popularity is slipping.
Funny you should bring that up. Congress recently was given the option to dump Medicare, and not a single Republican voted to do it. Do you have any idea why?
Constituents perhaps?

You think it has nothing to do with Liberals or Conservatives and you would be right. It is those pesky moderates who really do not agree with you but voted for Obama because they where upset with GWB.

You see, Bush derangement syndrome is no longer a factor any more and Liberals will have to debate the issues on their merits now. Moderates are just not tracking with the dem's plan. Most moderates already have health insurance.
 

Copernicus

Industrial Strength Linguist
Barack ran as a moderate and took the lions share of their vote. He is out of the sheep's clothing now and showing his true core beliefs now which is why his popularity is slipping.Constituents perhaps?

I think that his popularity is slipping primarily in his liberal base, not among moderates. For example, my estimation of his effectiveness has gone down, because I think that he has failed to hold to his campaign promises to support a public option. What we are likely to end up with is a bill of half measures that won't really solve the fundamental problem. Our industries simply cannot compete against nations that have government-subsidized health care systems. American corporations are dumping American workers like crazy because they do not want to pay for their health care.

You think it has nothing to do with Liberals or Conservatives and you would be right. It is those pesky moderates who really do not agree with you but voted for Obama because they where upset with GWB.

Yes, those pesky moderates. It seems that they were also upset with Republican legislators, too. Now, why would that be? ;) In any case, over 70% of Americans appear to favor a public option, which the insurance industry and our legislators (both Republican and Democrat) will not allow.

You see, Bush derangement syndrome is no longer a factor any more and Liberals will have to debate the issues on their merits now. Moderates are just not tracking with the dem's plan. Most moderates already have health insurance.

Don't be too sure of that. We are still suffering the effects of 8 years of Republican-led fiscal irresponsibility and incompetence. The economy is still shedding jobs, and corporations are still shredding their health care plans and other worker benefits. This problem is not going to go away, no matter how much you might wish to consider the Bush damage a temporary setback. People are unhappy with lack of progress in Congress and the administration. That does not mean that they will necessarily look to Republicans for a solution. Not for a long time, my friend.
 
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