House Democrat Health Plan

[Reverend Rick]

Sorry to disappoint, but I'm tired of discussing this issue, tired of hearing about it on the news, tired of thinking about it, tired of reading about it, and most of all, tired of trying slog through the bill itself.

It is frustrating when you are out numbered in a debate. Thank God RF is not a reflection of our country as a whole. I believe people like us are treated as a punching bag for the frustrations of the Liberal majority here on RF.

I did not post to complain however. I will admit my views are biased because I make a lot of money from the health care industry. But that is not why I am so compassionate about this issue.

I believe in taking personal responsibility for my health care. I am not concerned with how many breaths I take in my life time, but how many moments in my life that takes my breath away.

We all are going to die some day. I want quality of life, not quantity. I do not want to be a burden on anyone or live my twilight years pooping in a bed while someone has to clean up after me.

When you boil this issue down, it amounts to some folks want other folks to give them something for nothing. When we give the young, old, disabled, and poor health care as well as anyone who has a life threatening condition, that only leaves people who are able bodied and employed that do not get health care handed to them. Most people who do not make much money are younger and really don't get sick very much. If you find yourself older and not making much money, you really did not make much of yourself. You only have yourself to blame for your situation.

Even these folks will eventually get health care when they get older or disabled.

You would think as a country we would realise that the reason we are in such a financial mess is because we gave homes to people who did not deserve them.

Now we want to give the same folks health care. Does it matter what the majority of Americans want? I guess not. So much for democracy.

 

[Rin]

When you boil this issue down, it amounts to some folks want other folks to give them something for nothing.

I view it as some folks want to give others something for nothing. Its altruism, not selfishness. We would prefer that those who don't have health care, have health care, even if we end up paying for it. I don't care about whether they deserve it. I don't stop myself before helping someone else and ask myself "Now does this person actually deserve it?"

I don't know anything about the American healthcare system and very little about the current debate going on over there. Maybe you are better off with socialised healthcare. Maybe you aren't. I have no idea. But in my experience, as a European, those who favour socialised services do so out of a sense of duty to help others not out of a greed to help themselves.

Of course that doesn't have any impact on which side is right but I feel like you don't understand the mentality of those you disagree with. Maybe it is different in America but Obama seems to be firmly rooted in the spirit of altruism going purely on what I have seen of his speeches and so I think its a fair bet that many Americans who support him, rightly or wrongly, are motivated by that same altruistic spirit.

 

[Father Heathen]

Can we really trust private, profit driven industries to have peoples' best interests at heart? Or can we expect corner cutting and price gouging when it comes to peoples' needs and well being?

 

[Reverend Rick]

To tell you the truth, I believe doctors are over rated. You get a cold, you go to the doctor and two weeks later your better. You get a cold, you stay at home and two weeks later your better.

People go to the doctor for the least little thing. I have a rash, I have gas, my toe nails are discolored. blah blah blah

 

[Falvlun]

National health care looks to be DOA again.

Interesting. I thought the proposed health care reform was still within the Congressional womb. And I thought conservatives frowned upon abortion.

 

[T-Dawg]

It is frustrating when you are out numbered in a debate. Thank God RF is not a reflection of our country as a whole. I believe people like us are treated as a punching bag for the frustrations of the Liberal majority here on RF.

As a centrist (or the closest thing to a centrist most people will ever see =/), I feel your pain. Being in a minority is never fun, and even though I tend to be left-leaning economically, I can't deny the liberal majority of RF.
However, that is irrelevant to the argument =/.

We all are going to die some day. I want quality of life, not quantity. I do not want to be a burden on anyone or live my twilight years pooping in a bed while someone has to clean up after me.

I don't either. If we had better healthcare, maybe we could extend the age of use so that you wouldn't have to be pooping in a bed. Also, I'm pretty sure the option to live would be voluntary. You're avoiding the issue - some, nay, many people that need healthcare are not getting it. Basically, from my understanding, the way insurance works now is that if you have a "pre-existing condition" (that is, you have gotten healthcare aid before or you have something genetic), you either get rejected or you have to pay an incredibly high price. Surely you would not say that being in some unfortunate incident (ie, a maniac slams his car into your car and you have to go to the hospital) or that having a genetic condition makes a person morally inferior?
Although, I do like your idea of completely getting rid of insurance, although it probably wouldn't work in practice due to how America's gotten used to insurance (just because insurance caused doctors to raise their prices doesn't mean the removal of them will cause an instant drop). Insurance definitely raises the price of health service, as doctors know they can charge a lot if people are insured.

You would think as a country we would realise that the reason we are in such a financial mess is because we gave homes to people who did not deserve them.

Technically we didn't give them homes, we forced the banks to give out loans (for the purpose of buying homes) to people they knew couldn't pay them off. Which of course resulted in a collapse when the loans were due. It's good to see a conservative give a good point, I wish liberals would talk more about this subject. It seems that the liberals blame Bush and the war on Iraq (which doubtlessly was a huge chunk of our spending), and the conservatives blame the housing industry (which caused the banks to collapse). Here's an idea: maybe BOTH of them had something to do with it, and we should stop playing the blame game and FIX THE PROBLEM? =O (Note, this isn't directed specifically at you)

 

[Valjean]

Still working on three versions in the House and two in the Senate, as far as I know.

 

[Rin]

and the conservatives blame the housing industry (which caused the banks to collapse).

As a liberal, I blame both the housing and banking industries. We should have nationalised them ages ago j/k

 

[Autodidact]

When you boil this issue down, it amounts to some folks want other folks to give them something for nothing.

And Rick is willing for the nation to go bankrupt paying to make sure that we deny health care to people who can't afford it. It's expensive, but it's worth it.

When we give the young, old, disabled, and poor health care as well as anyone who has a life threatening condition, that only leaves people who are able bodied and employed that do not get health care handed to them. Most people who do not make much money are younger and really don't get sick very much. If you find yourself older and not making much money, you really did not make much of yourself. You only have yourself to blame for your situation.

Unless, of course, you have a pre-existing condition, in which case you can't get health insurance for love or money. Or, should you get sick and lose your health insurance along with your job, due to being too sick to work, you'll never get it again, since you will then have a pre-existing condition, but heck, it's your own darned fault for getting sick!

Even these folks will eventually get health care when they get older or disabled.

If they live long enough.

You would think as a country we would realise that the reason we are in such a financial mess is because we gave homes to people who did not deserve them.

We gave people homes?! I must have missed that.

Now we want to give the same folks health care. Does it matter what the majority of Americans want? I guess not. So much for democracy.

The majority of Americans want serious health care reform, and the minority is preventing us from getting it. So much for democracy.

I don't know whether you were watching the news at all last fall, Rick, but we had an election. Obama won. The people want change.

 

[Zephyr]

As a liberal, I blame both the housing and banking industries. We should have nationalised them ages ago j/k

Seriouspost, this is exactly what should be done. Socialize everything.

 

[jamaesi]

To Reverend Rick,

You have repeated over and over on this forum that in the USA the young, poor, disabled, and elderly get health care.

I'm poor and disabled and I'm really curious of where my awesome health care is at because I am uninsured. I have had 3 herniated discs, degenerative disc disease, spinal stenosis, and functional scoliosis (which was caused by my lower back being messed up and causes terrible muscle spasms in my upper back). I have two kinds of arthritis, psoriatic arthritis in many of my joints and osteoarthritis in my hips and knees that is causing a lot degeneration. I am also hard of hearing (Auditory Processing Disorder, APD) and have a number of other learning disabilities (LDs) related to my APD. I'm 21. My APD and LDs started from birth, my back problems started when I was 12. I have never had an accident or any trauma to my back. I am still waiting for an explanation of why all of this started for no reason so young that doesn't include the oh so scientific and medically sound diagnosis of "bad luck". Something like an endocrine disorder like Cushing's would explain everything that is wrong with me but when I brought that up to one of my doctors I was sent to a shrink against my will.

I have had three majour back surgeries. My first was when I was 15 and for L4/L5. I got an MRI on Thursday. The next day, Friday, I was at the surgeon's office. I remember this very clearly because Friday was my 15th birthday. The surgeon looked at my MRIs, expressed disbelief I had actually walked into his office. I was sent home with a list of things that could happen to me (like loss of bladder control) that I would have to call an ambulance for to take me to the hospital immediately. Monday morning (three days after that Friday) I was in surgery having a laminectomy. A wait time that short is almost unheard of. When I was opened up on the operating table the surgical team lamented the fact they did not have consent to video-tape the surgery as this was one of the worst herniated discs they had seen and my surgery took place at a teaching hospital. I lost a lot of blood and required some. My second back surgery a year later. It was a microdiscectomy for L5/S1, and wasn't as severe as my first disc. A couple years ago I had a surgery to put a pacemaker like device in my back to control pain, that surgery failed. I got a spinal fluid leak for a week and an even more screwed up back because of it. This is when I lost my insurance and they "forgot" to tell me about it. After that I blew another disc, L3/L4. It is still untreated. I had more treatments and then learned I had lost my health insurance and now was in massive debt from the bills I ran up when I thought I still had health insurance. I lost my insurance because my health insurance, after saying I could have insurance while I took a year off University decided to go back on that. They refused to reinstate me after I jumped through all the hoops to be listed as a disabled dependent of my mother. They decided to make up more paperwork and wanted me to go through a test that costs thousands of dollars and no, they weren't going to pay for it and I couldn't afford it. I have no been able to return to University because of the staggering debt I am in, not to mention the pain.

Now, I do not qualify for Medicaid because my mother makes too much. Nevermind that all that cash we're supposedly rolling in is going to my massive medical debt from the past 5 years or so.

I applied for Disability benefits earlier this year. I was having a back pain episode then. I could barely sit through the application process and ended up half laying on the woman's desk at the end of it. I gave them all the scans and test results and documentation I had. I told them all my medical history and every doctor I have ever visited. I was told I had presumptive approval. I thought all was going well until months later I got a rejection notice saying that while my disabilites cause pain, they aren't making me disabled. Nevermind that half of the time I can't get out of bed, maybe if I just pulled on my bootstraps a little harder I could pull myself up out of this. I started calling lawyers. None of them would take my case because I haven't been able to afford to go to a doctor for quite some time and get more recent tests done so I wasn't under a doctor's care. Keep in mind that all my conditions are degenerative and incurable- they have not magically gotten better since the last time some doctor waved his hands over me and declared "Bad Luck!" It is extremely hard to get disability for back conditions because they are very common BUT if you have had surgeries and multiple doctors visits and have tried many things to manage the pain (like having steroid injections, using a TENS unit/the pacemaker device I tried to get installed in me, etc) you have very good chances of getting disability- but even though have done ALL OF THOSE it just wasn't good enough and I can't afford to get them all done again now.

I obviously can not afford private insurance because I'm in massive debt and my many pre-existing conditions- I have pretty much every pre-existing condition they ask about.

There are other programs in my state for the uninsured that I have applied for, but I'm never getting in. The wait list is insane.


Right now I am having a back pain episode and have had it for over a week. I have been stuck in bed and going from being able to maybe crawl to the bathroom to unable to roll over in bed to a more comfortable position. I only had naproxen to take and I was taking 2 to 3 times the maximum dose because that is all I had. Doctors won't describe me painkillers for mostly being a woman and therefore all the pain just being in my head and I need to take antidepressants. Other excuses range from me drinking tea causes my back pain (***) and that "if you have painkillers then you won't be in pain and then you will move around and injure your back further!" There's the old standby of "you're too young to have painkillers" and "you'll get addicted!" If I get addicted to painkillers that might be helpful because I will be in pain for the rest of my life. Oh, and also, I have drug seeking behaviour because I go to the doctor and say I'm in pain and wish to have something to alleviate that pain, apparently I should have just gone in and went "Oh, gosh gee willy whiz wow, I am in pain WHATEVER SHALL I DO?" It also really sucks that there are only two things that completely alleviate my pain. One is horseback riding and there are no places to do hippotherapy around here and my own horses are not completely saddle-trained because I had to have a back surgery before I finished training them and I am just not in any shape to do that now. It helps because my left leg is way shorter than my right and my hips are out of alignment- riding a horse is almost like walking, the same muscle groups are used- and I can't walk normally because of the leg and hip thing so walking just hurts me more. The other thing that works for my pain is illegal in my state for medical use but not in places like... California. I think you know what I mean now. But that's another rant for another time.

On Sunday I didn't sleep that night because of the pain and at around seven in the morning I started screaming and couldn't stop because of the pain. Both of my arms started hurting along with everything from the middle of my back down. My mother took me to the hospital even though we can't afford it and they were going to run unnecessary tests- which they did. I had two sets of x-rays, lower back and neck, which are meaningless and just showed more degeneration of my bones (Duh). At this point, only a MRI will show anything meaningful. At least I was shot up with toradol, painkillers, and muscle relaxers so now I can actually move around without being in total agony. (Oh, btw, if you're crazy hard to get an IV in like I am, ask for a male nurse. Most murses are from a military background so they are already crazy good with getting IVs in in chaotic situations from, you know, doing it in a war. I've also never had a murse be mean to me. <3) I'm also now the proud new owner of a pinched nerve somewhere in the upper part of my spine or neck- that's what was causing the arm pain. Oh, and the proud owner of a brand new expensive bill.


So now... I have nothing. I'm in more and more pain every day and have exhausted all of my options. I also am developing more symptoms of other conditions- I have had severe pain in my right flank for almost a year, surprisingly enough they aren't kidney stones which I had a couple years before. I can't work when I can't get out of bed and I am in so much pain I can't think most of the time. I'm here at 4:30 in the morning writing this because I hurt too much to sleep.



So, to sum this all up, I would just really appreciate if you would stop saying how well taken care of I am in the Good Ol' USA.

A lot of other awesome people in this thread have made some fantastic arguments and points of why we need health care reform, you might want to start listening to them. I would just be repeating them if I talked about that. I just posted this because if I heard you say that the disabled in this country are so well taken care of one more time I was going to kick a puppy.

We need health care reform and we needed years and years ago. There are many people with all kinds of conditions who are stuck in the same place I am with no hope.

Hugs & Kisses,
Maesi <3

 

[Zephyr]

Well god damn, haven't seen you here in a while, but that sure is a hell of a post.

Edit: DATA EXPUNGED

 

[themadhair]

According to Obama about 80% of the content of the reform has been agreed to so far. They are still working on the remaining 20%.

 

[Reverend Rick]

To Reverend Rick,

You have repeated over and over on this forum that in the USA the young, poor, disabled, and elderly get health care.

I'm poor and disabled and I'm really curious of where my awesome health care is at because I am uninsured. I have had 3 herniated discs, degenerative disc disease, spinal stenosis, and functional scoliosis (which was caused by my lower back being messed up and causes terrible muscle spasms in my upper back). I have two kinds of arthritis, psoriatic arthritis in many of my joints and osteoarthritis in my hips and knees that is causing a lot degeneration. I am also hard of hearing (Auditory Processing Disorder, APD) and have a number of other learning disabilities (LDs) related to my APD. I'm 21. My APD and LDs started from birth, my back problems started when I was 12. I have never had an accident or any trauma to my back. I am still waiting for an explanation of why all of this started for no reason so young that doesn't include the oh so scientific and medically sound diagnosis of "bad luck". Something like an endocrine disorder like Cushing's would explain everything that is wrong with me but when I brought that up to one of my doctors I was sent to a shrink against my will.

I have had three majour back surgeries. My first was when I was 15 and for L4/L5. I got an MRI on Thursday. The next day, Friday, I was at the surgeon's office. I remember this very clearly because Friday was my 15th birthday. The surgeon looked at my MRIs, expressed disbelief I had actually walked into his office. I was sent home with a list of things that could happen to me (like loss of bladder control) that I would have to call an ambulance for to take me to the hospital immediately. Monday morning (three days after that Friday) I was in surgery having a laminectomy. A wait time that short is almost unheard of. When I was opened up on the operating table the surgical team lamented the fact they did not have consent to video-tape the surgery as this was one of the worst herniated discs they had seen and my surgery took place at a teaching hospital. I lost a lot of blood and required some. My second back surgery a year later. It was a microdiscectomy for L5/S1, and wasn't as severe as my first disc. A couple years ago I had a surgery to put a pacemaker like device in my back to control pain, that surgery failed. I got a spinal fluid leak for a week and an even more screwed up back because of it. This is when I lost my insurance and they "forgot" to tell me about it. After that I blew another disc, L3/L4. It is still untreated. I had more treatments and then learned I had lost my health insurance and now was in massive debt from the bills I ran up when I thought I still had health insurance. I lost my insurance because my health insurance, after saying I could have insurance while I took a year off University decided to go back on that. They refused to reinstate me after I jumped through all the hoops to be listed as a disabled dependent of my mother. They decided to make up more paperwork and wanted me to go through a test that costs thousands of dollars and no, they weren't going to pay for it and I couldn't afford it. I have no been able to return to University because of the staggering debt I am in, not to mention the pain.

Now, I do not qualify for Medicaid because my mother makes too much. Nevermind that all that cash we're supposedly rolling in is going to my massive medical debt from the past 5 years or so.

I applied for Disability benefits earlier this year. I was having a back pain episode then. I could barely sit through the application process and ended up half laying on the woman's desk at the end of it. I gave them all the scans and test results and documentation I had. I told them all my medical history and every doctor I have ever visited. I was told I had presumptive approval. I thought all was going well until months later I got a rejection notice saying that while my disabilites cause pain, they aren't making me disabled. Nevermind that half of the time I can't get out of bed, maybe if I just pulled on my bootstraps a little harder I could pull myself up out of this. I started calling lawyers. None of them would take my case because I haven't been able to afford to go to a doctor for quite some time and get more recent tests done so I wasn't under a doctor's care. Keep in mind that all my conditions are degenerative and incurable- they have not magically gotten better since the last time some doctor waved his hands over me and declared "Bad Luck!" It is extremely hard to get disability for back conditions because they are very common BUT if you have had surgeries and multiple doctors visits and have tried many things to manage the pain (like having steroid injections, using a TENS unit/the pacemaker device I tried to get installed in me, etc) you have very good chances of getting disability- but even though have done ALL OF THOSE it just wasn't good enough and I can't afford to get them all done again now.

I obviously can not afford private insurance because I'm in massive debt and my many pre-existing conditions- I have pretty much every pre-existing condition they ask about.

There are other programs in my state for the uninsured that I have applied for, but I'm never getting in. The wait list is insane.


Right now I am having a back pain episode and have had it for over a week. I have been stuck in bed and going from being able to maybe crawl to the bathroom to unable to roll over in bed to a more comfortable position. I only had naproxen to take and I was taking 2 to 3 times the maximum dose because that is all I had. Doctors won't describe me painkillers for mostly being a woman and therefore all the pain just being in my head and I need to take antidepressants. Other excuses range from me drinking tea causes my back pain (***) and that "if you have painkillers then you won't be in pain and then you will move around and injure your back further!" There's the old standby of "you're too young to have painkillers" and "you'll get addicted!" If I get addicted to painkillers that might be helpful because I will be in pain for the rest of my life. Oh, and also, I have drug seeking behaviour because I go to the doctor and say I'm in pain and wish to have something to alleviate that pain, apparently I should have just gone in and went "Oh, gosh gee willy whiz wow, I am in pain WHATEVER SHALL I DO?" It also really sucks that there are only two things that completely alleviate my pain. One is horseback riding and there are no places to do hippotherapy around here and my own horses are not completely saddle-trained because I had to have a back surgery before I finished training them and I am just not in any shape to do that now. It helps because my left leg is way shorter than my right and my hips are out of alignment- riding a horse is almost like walking, the same muscle groups are used- and I can't walk normally because of the leg and hip thing so walking just hurts me more. The other thing that works for my pain is illegal in my state for medical use but not in places like... California. I think you know what I mean now. But that's another rant for another time.

On Sunday I didn't sleep that night because of the pain and at around seven in the morning I started screaming and couldn't stop because of the pain. Both of my arms started hurting along with everything from the middle of my back down. My mother took me to the hospital even though we can't afford it and they were going to run unnecessary tests- which they did. I had two sets of x-rays, lower back and neck, which are meaningless and just showed more degeneration of my bones (Duh). At this point, only a MRI will show anything meaningful. At least I was shot up with toradol, painkillers, and muscle relaxers so now I can actually move around without being in total agony. (Oh, btw, if you're crazy hard to get an IV in like I am, ask for a male nurse. Most murses are from a military background so they are already crazy good with getting IVs in in chaotic situations from, you know, doing it in a war. I've also never had a murse be mean to me. <3) I'm also now the proud new owner of a pinched nerve somewhere in the upper part of my spine or neck- that's what was causing the arm pain. Oh, and the proud owner of a brand new expensive bill.





So, to sum this all up, I would just really appreciate if you would stop saying how well taken care of I am in the Good Ol' USA.

A lot of other awesome people in this thread have made some fantastic arguments and points of why we need health care reform, you might want to start listening to them. I would just be repeating them if I talked about that. I just posted this because if I heard you say that the disabled in this country are so well taken care of one more time I was going to kick a puppy.

We need health care reform and we needed years and years ago. There are many people with all kinds of conditions who are stuck in the same place I am with no hope.

Hugs & Kisses,
Maesi <3

Have you contacted a disablity lawyer? Seriously, you should receive medicade. When you are 21 years old, your mother's income should not be a factor. I'm not a CPA, but I would think the medical bills would be deducted from her income.

I think preexisiting conditions need to be regulated. I have a preexisting condition myself. I have been battling cancer for over 30 years. I have had radiation theropy, chemotheropy and numerous operations over the years. I had to pay for most of this out of my pocket. It has taken me years of payments every month to acomplish this.

 

[Kathryn]

Pre-existing conditions do not necessarily exclude anyone from insurance coverage. This depends entirely on the insurance company's plan, and there are many companies out there that have policies that accommodate pre existing conditions. Some policies require a waiting period - usually either one or two years - before they will cover a condition that was present before enrolling. MANY employers offer health insurance that has NO waiting period and that includes EVERYONE who enrolls IMMEDIATELY.

Of course, in order to qualify for employee benefits, you have to be working.

When I was an independent contractor, I had to pay out of pocket for my health insurance. It cost me about $350 a month for a good plan with a reputable company. This plan had a $1000 deductible and then it was 80/20 coverage up to, I believe, 1 million dollars. I thought all this was awfully expensive - until I had to have a hysterectomy - and then developed complications and had to stay in the hospital for several extra days.

All the testing beforehand - which was alot - cost me $25 per visit.

I had to pay $1700 before surgery to cover my part of everything.

That was it - that was all I paid. Personally, I believe what I paid was very fair.

The doctor and staff were terrific. The complications I experienced had nothing to do with the medical care I received - they were due to another condition and I was told beforehand that there was a possibility I would have these complications.

Now, five years later, I am completely healthy and feel great.

All in all, I would have to say that if you MUST have major surgery, my experience - with privately owned health insurance and the complete freedom to make my own medical decisions - was ideal.

Here is my point - as sad as Jamaesi's story is - it's anecdotal. Just as you have no way of verifying anything I've told you about my own experience, just as you feel your fingers itching to respond, challenge, pick my story apart...if you are objective you will admit you could do the same with Jamaesi's story. Because you're only hearing one person's version - and to be totally honest, you have no idea what the whole truth is.

Jamaesi, I am very sorry that you are living with chronic pain. I am not unsympathetic to your plight.

I have several friends who are 100 percent disabled and who receive disability benfits. One pays their own private insurance (about $500 a month). She does not qualify for Medicaid. The others have Medicaid and supplemental insurance. They are all being treated by doctors of their choice for their various conditions and are doing as well as can be expected. They have no complaints about their medical care. They are also absolutely appalled by the bill that is before our representatives now and are adamently opposed to it.

I guess I could see if they would get on this forum and post their opinions and experiences, but it would just be more anecdotal evidence - proving nothing to anyone who was objective.

Over my lifetime, I've had numerous friends who are European, and I lived in Europe for several years. Not one - NOT ONE - of my friends who live in Europe are happy with the healthcare they receive under socialized plans. One of my friends from the UK had such botched medical care during her pregnancy that her baby died and she nearly did herself. She married an American GI and when she moved to the US and experienced our healthcare, she was amazed at the positive difference and was thrilled to experience it (she had a healthy baby within two years).

One of my other friends, from Norway, had a harrowing experience a couple of years ago. While visiting some relatives in Norway, she collapsed with internal bleeding. in Norway. She was absolutely desperate to get out of Norway and back to the US - because of the difference in medical care and facilities. She was terrified to put her life in the hands of socialized medicine. They patched her up and as soon as she could be loaded onto a medical transport, she returned to the US - and had to have her botched surgery corrected. She absolutely detests the medical system in Norway and believes strongly that the best healthcare system in the world is in the US.

I could go on, but it wouldn't prove anything. It would just be opinions and personal anecdotes batted back and forth.

But let me remind everyone of this: All these stories people have posted about this issue have some merit and a lot of truth to them -regardless of which side they represent.

As a nation, I believe we have a moral obligation to provide healthcare for those American citizens who truly, truly cannot provide it for themselves.

Obama got off on the wrong foot with a lot of people (and not just conservatives) when he threw this massive, sweeping bill on the table and said, "We've got one month to vote this in," and then before the American people could not give specific details when asked.

Whenever ANYONE shoves a huge contract under my nose and says, "Don't bother reading it, just sign here," I'm immediately skeptical and would be a FOOL to sign.
If someone doesn't want you to look too closely at the details of a transaction, shouldn't that raise a red flag?

So as a country, I believe we're doing the right thing now - we're demanding clearer answers and we're looking closely at the bill.

Why does that common sense approach threaten some people? I don't get it.

 

[themadhair]

This is exactly the type of disingenuity I’ve been complaining about.

You say this:

All in all, I would have to say that if you MUST have major surgery, my experience - with privately owned health insurance and the complete freedom to make my own medical decisions - was ideal.

What part of section 102, which I have mentioned multiple times now, are you not understanding? This is the enshrinement of your right to keep your current coverage should you so choose. Again – what part of it are you not understanding?

I have several friends who are 100 percent disabled and who receive disability benfits. One pays their own private insurance (about $500 a month). She does not qualify for Medicaid. The others have Medicaid and supplemental insurance. They are all being treated by doctors of their choice for their various conditions and are doing as well as can be expected. They have no complaints about their medical care. They are also absolutely appalled by the bill that is before our representatives now and are adamently opposed to it.

Why are you friends opposed to this bill? Are their reasons as vacuous and ill-informed as yours appear to be? Do you really have anything whatsoever of relevance to say here or are you intent on whipping up these vague meaningless generalisations of some ephemeral reason this bill is bad in lieu of an actual argument?

She was terrified to put her life in the hands of socialized medicine.

Ignoring that many of those people under socialised medicine would take great issue with such a comment, I am utterly bemused why you bring it up in this debate if you were being truly objective. But then again, if you determined to spin providing the choice of a public health insurance option as being socialised medicine then it is clear you aren’t be objective.

As a nation, I believe we have a moral obligation to provide healthcare for those American citizens who truly, truly cannot provide it for themselves.

If this were true then why are you being utterly disingenuous on this issue? Why hate on a bill that doesn’t do what you are insinuating and that you seem intent on remaining ignorant of?

Obama got off on the wrong foot with a lot of people (and not just conservatives) when he threw this massive, sweeping bill on the table and said, "We've got one month to vote this in," and then before the American people could not give specific details when asked.

You really are very transparent. Never mind that the man himself has been doing public meetings giving just those specific details you choose to completely ignore and pretend don’t exist, but there is nothing whatsoever stopping you from obtaining them from yourself. That you refuse to do so while throwing this sort of irrelevant muck about pretty much sums you up on this issue imo.

Whenever ANYONE shoves a huge contract under my nose and says, "Don't bother reading it, just sign here," I'm immediately skeptical and would be a FOOL to sign.
If someone doesn't want you to look too closely at the details of a transaction, shouldn't that raise a red flag?

Who is asking you not to read this? Seriously, who the hell is asking you not to look at this issue??? Who the **** do you think you are kidding here with this rhetoric?? Why do you think the man himself is doing public meetings and taking questions? What do you think the town hall meetings are for? What do you think the website healthreform.gov is for?

So as a country, I believe we're doing the right thing now – we're demanding clearer answers and we're looking closely at the bill.

That must be why you are not looking closely at the bill and engaging on a series of irrelevant tangents that serve to confuse the issue?

Why does that common sense approach threaten some people? I don't get it.

Because what you are advocating isn’t common sense (criticising something you refuse to investigate isn’t considered common sense where I come from and I assumed it was similar in the US) and you are deliberately not getting it.

 

[Autodidact]

Have you contacted a disablity lawyer? Seriously, you should receive medicade. When you are 21 years old, your mother's income should not be a factor. I'm not a CPA, but I would think the medical bills would be deducted from her income.

I think preexisiting conditions need to be regulated. I have a preexisting condition myself. I have been battling cancer for over 30 years. I have had radiation theropy, chemotheropy and numerous operations over the years. I had to pay for most of this out of my pocket. It has taken me years of payments every month to acomplish this.

Rick: This is my area of expertise. This poster is not eligible for Medicaid or medicare. I know because it's my job to know. Your picture of the U.S.health system is very innacurate. Medicaid comes with SSI. Disabled former workers are not eligible for it.

So, want to tell this poster how his problem is that he's (?) lazy or hasn't done enough with his life?

Want to spend twice as much as countries that would cover him, just so we can make sure he continues to suffer? It's expensive to make sure this poster has no insurance, do you still want to pay extra to do that, just so some mythical lazy people don't get something for nothing?

 

[Autodidact]

Pre-existing conditions do not necessarily exclude anyone from insurance coverage. This depends entirely on the insurance company's plan, and there are many companies out there that have policies that accommodate pre existing conditions. Some policies require a waiting period - usually either one or two years - before they will cover a condition that was present before enrolling. MANY employers offer health insurance that has NO waiting period and that includes EVERYONE who enrolls IMMEDIATELY.

Of course, in order to qualify for employee benefits, you have to be working.

When I was an independent contractor, I had to pay out of pocket for my health insurance. It cost me about $350 a month for a good plan with a reputable company. This plan had a $1000 deductible and then it was 80/20 coverage up to, I believe, 1 million dollars. I thought all this was awfully expensive - until I had to have a hysterectomy - and then developed complications and had to stay in the hospital for several extra days.

All the testing beforehand - which was alot - cost me $25 per visit.

I had to pay $1700 before surgery to cover my part of everything.

That was it - that was all I paid. Personally, I believe what I paid was very fair.

The doctor and staff were terrific. The complications I experienced had nothing to do with the medical care I received - they were due to another condition and I was told beforehand that there was a possibility I would have these complications.

Now, five years later, I am completely healthy and feel great.

All in all, I would have to say that if you MUST have major surgery, my experience - with privately owned health insurance and the complete freedom to make my own medical decisions - was ideal.

Here is my point - as sad as Jamaesi's story is - it's anecdotal. Just as you have no way of verifying anything I've told you about my own experience, just as you feel your fingers itching to respond, challenge, pick my story apart...if you are objective you will admit you could do the same with Jamaesi's story. Because you're only hearing one person's version - and to be totally honest, you have no idea what the whole truth is.

Jamaesi, I am very sorry that you are living with chronic pain. I am not unsympathetic to your plight.

I have several friends who are 100 percent disabled and who receive disability benfits. One pays their own private insurance (about $500 a month). She does not qualify for Medicaid. The others have Medicaid and supplemental insurance. They are all being treated by doctors of their choice for their various conditions and are doing as well as can be expected. They have no complaints about their medical care. They are also absolutely appalled by the bill that is before our representatives now and are adamently opposed to it.

I guess I could see if they would get on this forum and post their opinions and experiences, but it would just be more anecdotal evidence - proving nothing to anyone who was objective.

Over my lifetime, I've had numerous friends who are European, and I lived in Europe for several years. Not one - NOT ONE - of my friends who live in Europe are happy with the healthcare they receive under socialized plans. One of my friends from the UK had such botched medical care during her pregnancy that her baby died and she nearly did herself. She married an American GI and when she moved to the US and experienced our healthcare, she was amazed at the positive difference and was thrilled to experience it (she had a healthy baby within two years).

One of my other friends, from Norway, had a harrowing experience a couple of years ago. While visiting some relatives in Norway, she collapsed with internal bleeding. in Norway. She was absolutely desperate to get out of Norway and back to the US - because of the difference in medical care and facilities. She was terrified to put her life in the hands of socialized medicine. They patched her up and as soon as she could be loaded onto a medical transport, she returned to the US - and had to have her botched surgery corrected. She absolutely detests the medical system in Norway and believes strongly that the best healthcare system in the world is in the US.

I could go on, but it wouldn't prove anything. It would just be opinions and personal anecdotes batted back and forth.

But let me remind everyone of this: All these stories people have posted about this issue have some merit and a lot of truth to them -regardless of which side they represent.

As a nation, I believe we have a moral obligation to provide healthcare for those American citizens who truly, truly cannot provide it for themselves.

Obama got off on the wrong foot with a lot of people (and not just conservatives) when he threw this massive, sweeping bill on the table and said, "We've got one month to vote this in," and then before the American people could not give specific details when asked.

Whenever ANYONE shoves a huge contract under my nose and says, "Don't bother reading it, just sign here," I'm immediately skeptical and would be a FOOL to sign.
If someone doesn't want you to look too closely at the details of a transaction, shouldn't that raise a red flag?

So as a country, I believe we're doing the right thing now - we're demanding clearer answers and we're looking closely at the bill.

Why does that common sense approach threaten some people? I don't get it.

And under the proposals being considered, you would be able to keep right on with your plan and have the exact same experience, and jamaesi would be covered as well, so what's the problem?

Nobody's asking you to support anything without reading it. On the contrary, the bill is available and you can read it line by line, or the many summaries and explanations that are out there. Nobody is discouraging you from becoming fully informed so no, there is no red flag.

Again, on the contrary, the opponents are lying, lying, lying, and I think that should raise a red flag for you.

Just this morning I heard about ads telling outright lies about the British National Health. First of all nothing remotely resembling their system is being proposed, and secondly what they are saying (that Ted Kennedy would not be treated, and that care is cut off based on an estimate of cost) are outright lies, said the British Health minister on NPR this morning. It seems to me if they had any legitimate objection, they wouldn't have to lie about it.

As for your Norwegian friend, I think she was unnecessarily frightened. Norway has an excellent public health system, and life expectancy there is 80 years, 1.4 years longer than the U.S. The U.S. system compares UNfavorably to that of countries like Norway. And they're spending about 58% per capita of what we are. Norway has lower infant mortality, longer life expectancy, and ranked 11th in the world for performance by the WHO. The U.S. ranked 37th. See here.

Furthermore, Europeans overall are much MORE satisfied with their health care systems than Americans. (See same report.)

I agree; anecdotes are not data. Let's talk data.

 

[tumbleweed41]

Lets look at history shall we....

Some here who are against the Obama Health Plan do admit we need to fix health care, but do not like this plan. They say we need more time to look at the issues.
How much time have we had?

Franklin D. Roosevelt wanted national health insurance but, even with his power in the New Deal Congress, he did not dare to tie it to Social Security in 1935 lest he lose the whole program. Harry S. Truman pushed it on a Congress that wouldn't buy it.

While Dwight D. Eisenhower balked at national insurance, he tried to get Congress to support a reinsurance program to buttress private insurers and gain coverage for high-risk patients and the needy.

Congress said no, twice.

John F. Kennedy made health care a major issue in his 1960 campaign. He concentrated on what then was called medical care for the aged, a title that wouldn't play well with the current Medicare set, people now described as senior citizens. He couldn't get it through Congress.

Lyndon B. Johnson did, but even with his legendary legislative skills and the overwhelming Democratic majorities in Congress after the 1964 elections, it took more than a year of hard, sometimes arm-bending persuasion to get Medicare enacted. It was a hard sell with conservative Democrats, not unlike the problem Mr. Obama faces now.

That one major victory for government health insurance was an exception to the pattern of starting each attempt from scratch instead of evolving it from what had gone before. When Johnson signed the Medicare bill in 1965 and gave Truman card No. 1, he traveled to Independence, Mo., to share "this moment of triumph" with the president who had first proposed it 20 years before.

So we have been trying to fix Health Care since at least 1935, with the only progress made by enacting Medicare 20 years after it was proposed.

The rest of the world has passed us by. We spend more on health care, with poorer results, than other industrialized nations. Our McCarthyistic fear of "socialism" has held us back for far to long.

A healthier population is a more productive population. It stands to reason that, while initial costs may be high, the resulting productivity of a healthier nation will propel us to an increase in National wealth.

History source-History Unkind to Health Care Reformers - CBS News

 

[Autodidact]

Virtual frubals to tumbleweed for that informative post, as I am temporarily prohibited from fruballing him.