How about we defund UNRWA ?

[muhammad_isa]

Neither was I. I was discussing decisions made by Muslims like Hamas that harm other Muslims like their civilian Palestinian neighbors..

That's like saying "Christians like Democrats that harm other Christian civilians in the area."
Have the Democrats got an army? You bet !

The Muslims here are beginning to convince me that their culture says to fight whatever the circumstances and whatever the consequences..

You mean that Muslims shouldn't try to fight oppressors, because they have so many 2000 lb. bombs,
and can do nothing about it?

None seem interested in any other approach..

Patently false .. Iran, Hezbollah and Hamas want to negotiate, but Israel / US carry on due
to believing that they can get "a good deal for Israel".
i.e. continue the oppression all over the region, as from 1950's onwards

Hey, it's their call. They'll do what they want and reap the consequences of that.

..but so will the rest of the world .. you don't seem to understand that.
BRICS is not going away..

 

[Andrew Stephen]

Peace to all,

It looks like for me the problem will resolve itself
with one mother.

Peace always,
Stephen

 

[icehorse]

Patently false .. Iran, Hezbollah and Hamas want to negotiate, but Israel / US carry on due
to believing that they can get "a good deal for Israel".
i.e. continue the oppression all over the region, as from 1950's onwards

What you just said here seems the exact opposite of what I know of the ME.

With that said, I'm going to assume that you are telling the truth as you know it, and I can assure you that I am telling the truth as I know it.

So that leaves us with the conclusion that your news and information sources disagree with my news and information sources, correct? I'm not saying mine are correct and yours are wrong, maybe mine are wrong. So how could you and I go about finding out what's really true?

 

[Andrew Stephen]

Peace to all ,

“So how could you and I go about finding out what's really true?” a question from Icehorse to Mohammed_isa

To me, the truth is in the story that never changes.

“to believing that they can get "a good deal for Israel" and Islam.”

To me, this is the best chance of stopping all conflict.

A year ago I lost two bitcoins on Robinhood at 2×26,000 =52,000 a crying loss and I was able to get back into my account Halloween evening with 140 grand a total gain 80k, what is up with that? go Robinhood!!

To me, it’s amazing how the creator brings the mind of creation to earth by a singular grace from God, through the Immaculate Conception making Mary immortal and incorruptible in the flesh and spirit for the virgin birth of the Christ, the mind of God, in the person of the holy spirit, in the person of Jesus Our brother in all mankind to become again, glorified and transfigured in the image of the creator, God for the One Father.

Anybody, can you help me get Israel and Islam to accept Christ?

We will all be brothers from cousins and we will have One Mother

We don’t want to judge but ourselves, but this may work.

I thought I heard somewhere. One has to know a mystic to become empowered as a mystic.

Peace always,
Stephen Andrew
Catholic mystic

 

[It Aint Necessarily So]

You mean that Muslims shouldn't try to fight oppressors, because they have so many 2000 lb. bombs, and can do nothing about it?

I mean that people should think rationally and strategically if they care about outcomes following their choices. They are best served by thinking, "When I choose course of action A1, it predictably leads to result R1. When I choose course of action A2, it predictably leads to result R2. I should make my choices according to expected outcomes and preferences."

The alternative is to keep repeating actions that don't work, which most people don't want, but often can't see that that is what is happening, and so keep repeating failed strategies, hence the cliche, "'Insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results."

Patently false .. Iran, Hezbollah and Hamas want to negotiate, but Israel / US carry on due to believing that they can get "a good deal for Israel"

That was a response to, "The Muslims here are beginning to convince me that their culture says to fight whatever the circumstances and whatever the consequences. None seem interested in any other approach, and if it's a strong cultural value here on RF, I assume that that is also the mindset of most Palestinians."

I was referring to you and the other Muslims posting here and extrapolating your apparent attitude to the average Gazan.

Regarding Hamas, they may be too late to negotiate. Netanyahu seems to want Hamas extirpated from the earth, and he seems willing to sacrifice hostages and Israeli soldiers to do it. That may not have been the response Hamas anticipated or one the UN accepts, but they've poked the bear and my not be able to stop him.

Are you planning to address either of my theses at any point:

• I see no evidence of Muslims here on RF or elsewhere accepting any blame for events or any acceptance Israel's response.
• It is better for captives to act rationally and strategically than emotionally.

I don't expect any of you to express any opinion other than that Israel is entirely in the wrong, Hamas is entirely justified in murdering Israelis and taking many hostage, and by refusing to discuss the second point, implying that the Palestinians should attack the Israelis whatever or how predictable the outcome.

And if that is representative of Muslim culture in general, there will never be lasting peace in the Middle Eastern or are the Arabs interested in peace, and by peace, I don't mean peace and freedom, just the cessation of terrorism from a position of captivity. It seems that you agree and approve.

If your next reply doesn't address either of those bullet points but goes on endorsing a failed strategy without attempting to justify why it's a good choice or why none of you find any fault in Hamas, then I probably won't answer it. Remember why I entered this thread here. It was to discuss pragmatics, not Muslims' grievances. I don't say that you are unjustified, just that the discussion isn't one I want to be a part of.

can you help me get Israel and Islam to accept Christ?

No. And you can't get them to do that, either.

And what good would that do? Russia and Ukraine are both Christian nations, so accepting Christ doesn't do much for world peace.

 

[Andrew Stephen]

Peace to all,

We can get the Middle East settled Through Christ and then take care of Ukraine and Russia fighting.

To me, No one understands world order unless The Will becomes from the intelligence of creation and that is the word that existed before creation was ever created was even created, and The Word is unfailing intelligence in eternity to me.

The four most, powerful words in the Bible are “The Word becomes Flesh”.

And we know not to preach just provide rational logic for a solution. The intelligence only not fails one way.

The intelligence of creation came to earth in 0AD Anno Domini Latin for the beginning of church time from the Ark through body of Mary for all and again 9 months later through the virgin birth of Christ becoming again in all mankind.

The intelligence becomes what would Jesus do in all cases of fulfilled, faith, and morality.

Peace on earth as it is in Heaven rationally and logically, and through the Faith of Abraham.

Peace always,
Stephen

 

[muhammad_isa]

..how could you and I go about finding out what's really true?

Gathering as much information from different sources as you can, without relying on
one nation's media source .. such as Fox news, CNN, BBC etc.

Independent journalism is available these days .. and you have to realize that Israel does
not permit journalists into the occupied territories .. why?

 

[muhammad_isa]

I don't expect any of you to express any opinion other than that Israel is entirely in the wrong..

Why?
..because you think that all Muslims are bigots?

If your next reply doesn't address either of those bullet points but goes on endorsing a failed strategy without attempting to justify why it's a good choice or why none of you find any fault in Hamas, then I probably won't answer it..

I find fault in most people, including myself.

The bottom line for me, is that I don't consider Israel's terrorism justified. It seems that
the west considers Palestinian and Lebanese civilian lives as "collateral damage", but
Israelis who lose their lives an outrage.

It's OK for Israelis to destroy all the infrastructure in Gaza and Lebanon, because they are "the good guys".
That's ridiculous. Non western countries see it for what it is .. inhuman bullying .. unreasonable, colonial force.

How does it make Israel a safer place to live? It doesn't.

 

[icehorse]

Gathering as much information from different sources as you can, without relying on
one nation's media source .. such as Fox news, CNN, BBC etc.

Independent journalism is available these days .. and you have to realize that Israel does
not permit journalists into the occupied territories .. why?

Cool, and what sources do you use?

 

[MayPeaceBeUpOnYou]

I don't know the history or understand the dynamics there or who is to blame. I don't know who is poking at whom. Maybe the Israelis are attacking Palestinians there without provocation, or maybe the Palestinians are restive and provoking the Israelis.

I'm referring to making strategic choices given circumstances. If attacking the Israelis can result in gains, then that is a potentially strategic choice. If it can only result in increased hardship for Palestinians, then it seems like a poor choice. If standing down results in a better life, that would be my choice. If I found myself a chattel slave or a POW, I'd have to decide whether active resistance was to my advantage or whether compliance was. Hopefully, I'd make a rational decision and not one based in rage.

The hardship is already present which started with a colonial project which resulted in almost a million palastinians being ethnic cleansed.

can't emphasize enough that my point is about making strategic versus emotional choices. I don't see the Arabs switching to the former any time soon. I expect them to continue attacking whatever price they pay for that

It’s now a couple times I hear about emotional choices. We are human and make choices which sometimes involves emotion. You are talking about people that are living under oppression for almost a century by s state which is fully supported by the biggest super power in the world who plays with their lives.

We should recognize the palastnians resistance doesn’t have the knowledge as those who they are fighting. If you wanna look at a strategic perspective Hamas would argue 7 October brought back their situation on the agenda of the international community and not to forget they exposed the right wing government of Israel which reacted ‘emotionally ‘ to 7 October and we see the result of their response of beheaded babies on our screens.

I think we underestimate how a person would react in their position, I grew up in Europe and I can’t imagine doing what they are doing but for me and you it’s a easy talk. When people are driven in a corner everything is possible, choice of emotional or strategic is sometimes not possible.

 

[Godobeyer]

While many Westerners have condemned the Israelis in the news and on this thread, I haven't seen a single Muslim on this thread (or in the news either for that matter) make any effort to see things from the Israeli perspective, even to explain why they think it invalid or inappropriate for Israel to retaliate. Nor has one commented on the horrible result for the Palestinian people following the October 7th attacks.

I can condemn any crime done by Hamas or any Muslim.
Especially when about kids or women.

Most of Pro Israel don't condemn, Israel crimes.

The problem is i understand the motivations that made hamas attacked Israel.
Which Gaza besieged for 14 years, and Israel captured in prison many innocents including women and kids.
And occupation of West Bank, besides provocation to Masjid Alqsa.

I know there are Western people here,defend for Palestinians. it's great we share same humanity values, I personally salute them,they don't influence by thier own media biased to Israel.They had commun humun sense.

 

[Godobeyer]

None of these links work for me.

True, do not know whats wrong with links!

Spoiler: Graphics picture,

 

[Andrew Stephen]

"I don't know who is poking at whom. Maybe the Israelis are attacking Palestinians there without provocation, or maybe the Palestinians are restive and provoking the Israelis." It Aint Necessarilt So

Peace to all,

Thanks for the updates, GodObeyer, God Bless you, Sir, and please, all help us all pray for peace.

وسيجدون ما صنعوا حاضرا. ولا يظلم ربك أحدا.
wasayajidun ma sanaeuu hadira. wala yazlim rabuk 'ahdan.

He came to remove mental anger and mental hate and fear, we all know the opposite of fear is Love.

to me, The New Promised land is the New Temple and The Body of Christ through One Son, from One Mother in all mankind becoming again the image of The Creator and One God for The One Father.

To me I see There is division and Confusion over those who say they are "owners" and sellers to now sharers and takers back and separators of people and kicker outers of people who are indiginous to the Promised land that are heirs to the homeland, but the old homeland belongs now to all indigineous and are the picked to carrier the provided New living Sacrifice and the New Homeland is fulfilled and today is the Body of Christ in all mankind becoming again. And for historic and old religious beliefs, the Old Living Sacrifice is now fulfilled. From the Bosom of Abraham to Heaven, now flesh is eternal and we are brothers and sisters through the Living Sacrifice that unites all. The Promised land belongs to all now, free and shared for all. The Old Temple is fulfilled and the Old Promised land is Historic and Old Covenant Religious History, now fulfilled, what is God provided, picked is the New Living Sacifice that unites all mankind, from cousins to brothers in One Mother for One Father who were Isralites the Original Exodus, who are today the fulfilled Israelites, the curtain has been torn, from bottom to top, picked to carry the New Ark of the Covenant, into the New Exodus through the New Eve, Mary, the One Mother, for the One Father and the One God Prophet Muhammad reminds us to in all mankind.

For we all know how to be well and remove Provacation which is separation from the Homeland and is the New Fulfilled Promise Land through the Body of Christ for everyone. "Hamas said its attack was in response to Israel's continued occupation, blockade of Gaza, expansion of settlements, Israel's disregard for international law, as well as alleged threats to the Al-Aqsa Mosque and the general plight of Palestinians." Wikipedia. Separation of anyone from the One Mother causes Mental Anger and Mental Hatered and fear from any ununited side. We become united from The One Mother through the One Living Sacrifice of the One Son in the Power of The One Holy Spirit Person in Being for The One Father, becoming again the image of the Creator and One God for The One Father.

Peace always,
Stephen Andrew
Catholic

 

[Revoltingest]

I can condemn any crime done by Hamas or any Muslim.
Especially when about kids or women.

Most of Pro Israel don't condemn, Israel crimes.

They don't even admit being crimes....or even wrongful.
And some here even approve of the massive "collateral
deaths, & using starvation as a weapon.

 

[muhammad_isa]

Cool, and what sources do you use?

A good start would be the wikipedia page.. Israel_Hamas_war - Wikipedia

..and again, why do the Israelis refuse entry to the occupied territories for journalists?

 

[Godobeyer]

They don't even admit being crimes....or even wrongful.
And some here even approve of the massive "collateral
deaths, & using starvation as a weapon.

That's has one definition for me, its absolutely about racism thoughts blind their minds,disable/lack of humanity sense .

Which originally came from evil interpretations of" the chosen people, promised land", and others are the chosen human animals.

 

[Andrew Stephen]

Peace to all,

The New Living sacrifice is what Jesus transforms from cousins becoming brothers becoming again transfigured glorified into the image of the Creator and One God for the Father and God from the Love of The One Mother through the "Firstborn" of all creation back from where we came by blood and water.

Man from Adam and Eve improperly picked the sacrifice of Fig Leafs and were told by God, "I will Provide, Pick, choose the Living Sacrifice."
And God chose animals for the innocent to suffer for the atonement and absolutuion of sin of the guilty and repentant sinners. But the blood only washes the soul but not the flesh, until The Christ. And Animals only atoned for the soul. the New Living Sacrifice of The Son of God in the New Temple of the Living Sacrifice, the Bodies of all mankind are restored eternal life to the flesh and soul, out of the Bosom of Abraham, to the New Heaven and Earth, Heaven foe all brothers and sisters as Son's and Daughters of God in the flesh.

We know we have to see all mankind as Son's of God.

We are all picked, "Chosen" to carry forward and in a special and reverent way and not on an Ox cart, the provided "chosen" sacrifice.
We are actually, rartionally the chosen to carry the chosen sacrifice, for all mankind, one New Promised land and One New Temple in Our Own Christ and it is the Mind of The One God and is the intelligience of Creation in the Flesh of all mankind, through One Living Sacrifice and One Mother for One Father.

The Chosen carry forward the chosen.

In Abrahamic Faiths, Sacrifice is the atonement. With the fulfillment of the New Temple, the Sacrifice is now fulfilled for Eternal life to not only the soul but to the flesh, through the Christ, the spirit amd flesh of immortality and incorruption.

Picked to carry the provided sacrifice to the promised land are the Israelites.

Fulfilled today is The New Living Sacrifice in the New Living Temple and we are all picked to carry.

Peace always,
Stephen Andrew
Catholic mystic

 

[Revoltingest]

That's has one definition for me, its absolutely about racism thoughts blind their minds,disable/lack of humanity sense .

Which originally came from evil interpretations of" the chosen people, promised land", and others are the chosen human animals.

Rather than being about race, it's religious
bigotry that causes many Jews & Christians
to devalue Muslim lives & rights.

 

[Andrew Stephen]

Peace to all,

Some say Some pick and choose from various, some or most of all religious orders, and not Catholics.
Muhammad reminds us all of The One God.
To me, Catholic theology resolves world peace.

Peace always,
Stephen
Catholic

 

[Aupmanyav]

"How about we defund UNRWA?"

I think not just UNRWA, but the whole UN edifice (except perhaps for UNICEF) should be defunded and dissolved. It does not serve any purpose and is highly wasteful. The building could be utilized for some other purpose.