How an atheist can believe in 'God'

[Nakosis]

No; atheism really means not believing in anything that one considers a god. Deists, pantheists, and panentheists are all not atheists.

So, which group you mentioned here is non-theistic?

 

[MrMrdevincamus]

To be fair, there is considerable evidence that some atheists (myself probably included) are literally incapable of believing in any deities.
That means nothing, but is still a fact far as I can tell.

That's understandable. On the flip side many theists and Christians find it impossible not to believe that a creator exists. I like to follow the evidence and that is why I was intrigued when more and more scientists began saying life should be common in our universe. The universe is so old and the building blocks of life so prevalent its a given that life maybe intelligent life could exist outside earth. Still we haven't found anything yet. But that too bodes well for theists.

; {>

 

[LuisDantas]

Great, I take it you dont celebrate xmas, or any religious holiday. And that means participation as well.

Hmm

I am not asked whether I would rather have non-doctrinary holidays, so why would you think such a thing?

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

So, which group you mentioned here is non-theistic?

I'd call all of them theistic. IMO, calling something a "god" is an assertion that it's within the umbrella of theism. I consider "non-theistic god" to be a contradiction in terms. However, I've seen people use the term "non-theistic god" to describe non-personal or non-interventionist gods like deistic and pantheistic gods.

 

[Desert Snake]

A being with all the powers of God would be God.
: {>

I would just consider them highly technologically advanced civilization.

 

[LuisDantas]

I'd call all of them theistic. IMO, calling something a "god" is an assertion that it's within the umbrella of theism. I consider "non-theistic god" to be a contradiction in terms. However, I've seen people use the term "non-theistic god" to describe non-personal or non-interventionist gods like deistic and pantheistic gods.

Same here.

I wish people accepted that their understandings of "deity" and "god" are always arbitrary, fully individual even.

The failure to acknowledge that leads to whole mountains of useless, often pointless yet "unsolvable" misunderstandings.

Worse still, often enough that is the intent - consciously or otherwise.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

A being with all the powers of God would be God.
: {>

What are "the powers of a God"?

The only common element I've ever found to all the different gods that have presented to me is that a god is an object of human worship. If something isn't worshipped by humans, then it isn't a god.

By extension, since we can't worship what we don't know about, anything unknown to humanity is not a god. If, hypothetically, some being exists that we'll decide to worship as a god when we find out about it, it would only become a god when that happens.

IOW, if something has "the powers of a god" (whatever that means) it isn't a god unless and until humans find out about it and start worshipping it.

 

[Nakosis]

That is a god belief. Perhaps you are mistaken about their beliefs, however the way you described it, is a god belief.

The originator of the phrase, Paul Tillich, also claimed that God did not exist. So I don't see where I'm mistaken. He was a Christian theologian who did not have a belief in God.

I know an atheist Christian theologian seems a little weird but that's were the phrase comes from.

 

[Nakosis]

I'd call all of them theistic. IMO, calling something a "god" is an assertion that it's within the umbrella of theism. I consider "non-theistic god" to be a contradiction in terms. However, I've seen people use the term "non-theistic god" to describe non-personal or non-interventionist gods like deistic and pantheistic gods.

His words "God is being-itself or the absolute. However after this has been said, nothing else can be said about God as God which is not symbolic"

So not a deity, rather whatever condition/conditions necessary for being to take place and nothing more.

Replacing the theistic concept of God with this, allowing him to state God did not exist and still remain a Christian theologian.

 

[ChristineM]

How an atheist can believe in God
(and save face doing it)


For those that don't want to read the long version (in blue bold) MrMrM has mercy on you! I have condensed the OT down to a paragraph. Please if you have a question make sure I haven't covered it in the long version? Is it probable or possible that a race of beings so advanced they created this universe? In several articles scientists have speculated that we humans will learn to exist in an non-corporal body that never dies will become super intelligent via computer to brain interface. So why couldn't a race million of years older than ours already accomplished that feat?



Not only can Theists believe in God I can show a way that agnostics and atheists with open minds can believe in God too. This belief is both rational and logical. My idea is not new but a lot of the evidences and observations are, some are emerging as I write this. I am going to make this as brief and painless as possible. With each passing week NASA finds another batch of planets. It seems planets orbiting most stars is the new normal*. Scientists agree that there is scientific evidence to support the age of the universe is 13 billion years + or - a billion years or two. That is an nearly unimaginable span of time. Its enough time for many 1st generation stars to burn out to a nuclear cinder or maybe super Nova depending on its size. Its enough time for new stars called 2nd generation stars to form from the dust and debris of those first stars that exploded and spread their nuclear synthesized elements through out space. Our sun is such a star, and we, our planet and solar system is made from first generation star dust. According to science life supposedly arose nearly as soon as earth cooled enough to stop glowing**. So even considering the most pessimistic odds there should be millions of planets supporting life***, some should be intelligent life if you evolutionary biologists believe what you preach. If such a planet formed intelligent life a million years before our planet did that race of beings would be far advanced, as much as we humans are more advanced than an insect****. I was reading that soon computers would be able to directly interface with our brains*****. After that happens those who study these things say humans will become a cloud mentality with the ability to communicate telepathically******. The next step of human machine evolution would be our entire population acting as ONE. Lol we are the borg! No worries humans advanced to that level would create anything they wanted, no assimilation needed. It seems obvious to me that super advanced humans could create universes******* given enough time.In fact a fairly new theory is that we live in a TWO DIMENSIONAL universe that mimics a three D universe, its called the holographic universe********. In other words our universe is a program running in an unbelievably advanced computer like system. So these super advanced beings or ONE being would be the same thing as an old testament God. In fact it would solve many cryptic messages found in the bible and major religions. So now atheists can believe in God with out fear of being 'backwards' etc. I have included foot notes to support my claims if anyone is interested in doing more research.

So discuss, is the advanced race idea plausible possible probable? If not why? Even you do not agree with this version of advanced races there are other scenarios based on the same core idea. Anyway thanks for replies, if any.


I did not have time to install the footnotes however I will source any information especially those with the star (asterisk).

: {>

An atheist is one who who disbelieves or lacks belief in the existence of god or gods. Belief that some entity is a god nullifies the definition for that person so no, an atheist would not believe in ET being a god, but an agnostic might if evidence was sufficient

 

[Deidre]

You would have to ask them. As I said there are many different kinds of atheists. And I bet if you were to Google using key words you would find many atheists who say they want to believe in God or words to that effect. I say each individual has a right to define themselves and their world view.

; {>

I don't disagree...I think that's the key, in giving up that 'want' to believe. Or the idea that we need to believe. I've been religious, I was an atheist...and now I'm at a cross roads, feeling like my mind naturally and logically thinks like an atheist now, but it's the heart that takes time to catch up. I think convincing ourselves that we need to believe in something outside of ourselves, isn't entirely healthy. If you believe, great. But, I think that many atheists might struggle with this, because we live in such a faith-based saturated society.

 

[lewisnotmiller]

How an atheist can believe in God
(and save face doing it)


For those that don't want to read the long version (in blue bold) MrMrM has mercy on you! I have condensed the OT down to a paragraph. Please if you have a question make sure I haven't covered it in the long version? Is it probable or possible that a race of beings so advanced they created this universe? In several articles scientists have speculated that we humans will learn to exist in an non-corporal body that never dies will become super intelligent via computer to brain interface. So why couldn't a race million of years older than ours already accomplished that feat?



Not only can Theists believe in God I can show a way that agnostics and atheists with open minds can believe in God too. This belief is both rational and logical. My idea is not new but a lot of the evidences and observations are, some are emerging as I write this. I am going to make this as brief and painless as possible. With each passing week NASA finds another batch of planets. It seems planets orbiting most stars is the new normal*. Scientists agree that there is scientific evidence to support the age of the universe is 13 billion years + or - a billion years or two. That is an nearly unimaginable span of time. Its enough time for many 1st generation stars to burn out to a nuclear cinder or maybe super Nova depending on its size. Its enough time for new stars called 2nd generation stars to form from the dust and debris of those first stars that exploded and spread their nuclear synthesized elements through out space. Our sun is such a star, and we, our planet and solar system is made from first generation star dust. According to science life supposedly arose nearly as soon as earth cooled enough to stop glowing**. So even considering the most pessimistic odds there should be millions of planets supporting life***, some should be intelligent life if you evolutionary biologists believe what you preach. If such a planet formed intelligent life a million years before our planet did that race of beings would be far advanced, as much as we humans are more advanced than an insect****. I was reading that soon computers would be able to directly interface with our brains*****. After that happens those who study these things say humans will become a cloud mentality with the ability to communicate telepathically******. The next step of human machine evolution would be our entire population acting as ONE. Lol we are the borg! No worries humans advanced to that level would create anything they wanted, no assimilation needed. It seems obvious to me that super advanced humans could create universes******* given enough time.In fact a fairly new theory is that we live in a TWO DIMENSIONAL universe that mimics a three D universe, its called the holographic universe********. In other words our universe is a program running in an unbelievably advanced computer like system. So these super advanced beings or ONE being would be the same thing as an old testament God. In fact it would solve many cryptic messages found in the bible and major religions. So now atheists can believe in God with out fear of being 'backwards' etc. I have included foot notes to support my claims if anyone is interested in doing more research.

So discuss, is the advanced race idea plausible possible probable? If not why? Even you do not agree with this version of advanced races there are other scenarios based on the same core idea. Anyway thanks for replies, if any.


I did not have time to install the footnotes however I will source any information especially those with the star (asterisk).

: {>

I can already admit God in some form is hypothetically possible. Since there is no convincing evidence, though, still an atheist.

 

[Ponder This]

The old "anything is possible" argument hasn't worked for atheists so far, so I doubt it would change for technologically advanced extraterrestrials worthy of 'god status'.

In fact, if an alien spaceship landed on Earth and one of these super-technological entities popped out and claimed directly to be a god, many atheists would remain unconvinced. In fact, even if that alien performed technological miracles as demonstrable proofs, it still would not suffice. The atheists aren't going to start praying to technologically advanced super aliens if they are allowed to have any sort of choice in the matter.

Moreover, many theists would reject the notion of an alien god as well and in the face of all of the same evidence, probable, improbable, plausible, implausible, evident, or not. It simply does not matter. Why?

Because it's a thought exercise on a forum. That's why. It's like asking someone who's never been more than 3 feet from the ground what he would think if he were standing on a skyscraper. He's like, "What? You mean more than 3' off the ground?" It's like asking someone who's never been in an airplane before if he is afraid of flying in an airplane. It's like asking someone on the street what he thinks it would be like to be an astronaut in space.

All we have are fanciful notions, there's no way to talk about it as if it were real, as if we understood what these aliens are actually like. It's actually easier to talk about metaphysical experiences that we have in common with other people than to talk about something outside of our experiences altogether. The people who say, "I would never do that" might end up being the people most strongly convinced if something actually were to happen - because until that moment arrives when it affects them personally, they can't really, actually, seriously entertain the idea or understand it in a meaningful way.

 

[MrMrdevincamus]

I'd call all of them theistic. IMO, calling something a "god" is an assertion that it's within the umbrella of theism.

Websters, sources and any professionals I know of do not make that requirement, but you did say that is your opinion

I consider "non-theistic god" to be a contradiction in terms. However, I've seen people use the term "non-theistic god" to describe non-personal or non-interventionist gods like deistic and pantheistic gods.

Would you agree all this posturing comes from 'emotional' concerns? Is the aversion to admit or to actually say God can exist so unpalatable that some atheists would rather change the definition of God with an uncommon definition? Even a deistic etc God can be supernatural if it creates the universe by means other than physical laws permit. I know its painful to admit such things if the situation is reversed. It took a long time and a lot of introverted brow beating to admit that an advanced being could be Jesus and could have created the Abrahamic religions. I had to allow intellect overrule emotional issues, and I am not sure that was healthy for my belief system. That's because unlike atheism, Abrahamic religions especially Christianity considers faith to be one of the most important attributes a Christian can possess. In fact God took Enoch and Elijah straight to heaven without dying because their faith was so pure!* Of course like atheists etc there are Christians that would never ever EVER admit God could be an extraterrestrial being of unimaginable intelligence.

; {>

 

[MrMrdevincamus]

An atheist is one who who disbelieves or lacks belief in the existence of god or gods. Belief that some entity is a god nullifies the definition for that person so no, an atheist would not believe in ET being a god, but an agnostic might if evidence was sufficient

I do not understand your reasoning. What definition are you basing your reply on?

 

[MrMrdevincamus]

I don't disagree...I think that's the key, in giving up that 'want' to believe. Or the idea that we need to believe. I've been religious, I was an atheist...and now I'm at a cross roads, feeling like my mind naturally and logically thinks like an atheist now, but it's the heart that takes time to catch up. I think convincing ourselves that we need to believe in something outside of ourselves, isn't entirely healthy. If you believe, great. But, I think that many atheists might struggle with this, because we live in such a faith-based saturated society.

I too was an atheist and as time went by and my life experiences added up AND my education progressed I become unconvinced atheism was the best choice to describe....well everything. To address your reply I am sure many religious folk are religious because they fear death so much it drives them to chose the hope of eternal life. Worse is the fear of hell which is an invention of later Christian vetters' and rewriters' of the bible. Then there is a psychological need for the ultimate father figure of a all powerful God who will protect us. You mentioned a 'faith-based saturated society' that is true, but think what if we lived in Egypt of 4000 years ago! Talk about saturation! lol...

; {>

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Websters, sources and any professionals I know of do not make that requirement, but you did say that is your opinion

The online Merriam-Webster's doesn't define "Theistic", but dictionary.com does. Note defintion #2:

theism

[thee-iz-uh m]

• Examples
• Word Origin

See more synonyms on Thesaurus.com
noun
1.
the belief in one God as the creator and ruler of the universe, withoutrejection of revelation (distinguished from deism ).
2.
belief in the existence of a god or gods (opposed to atheism ).

the definition of theistic

Edit: and the online Oxford dictionary:

theistic


ADJECTIVE

• Relating to or characterized by belief in the existence of a god or gods.
  
  ‘theistic religions’
  
  ‘the idea of theistic evolution’

theistic - definition of theistic in English | Oxford Dictionaries

Would you agree all this posturing comes from 'emotional' concerns?

What posturing?

Is the aversion to admit or to actually say God can exist so unpalatable that some atheists would rather change the definition of God with an uncommon definition? Even a deistic etc God can be supernatural if it creates the universe by means other than physical laws permit. I know its painful to admit such things if the situation is reversed. It took a long time and a lot of introverted brow beating to admit that an advanced being could be Jesus and could have created the Abrahamic religions. I had to allow intellect overrule emotional issues, and I am not sure that was healthy for my belief system. That's because unlike atheism, Abrahamic religions especially Christianity considers faith to be one of the most important attributes a Christian can possess. In fact God took Enoch and Elijah straight to heaven without dying because their faith was so pure!* Of course like atheists etc there are Christians that would never ever EVER admit God could be an extraterrestrial being of unimaginable intelligence.

; {>

It seem that whatever conversation you're participating in isn't the same one as the rest of us. Nothing here addresses the positions I hold or anything I've said in this thread.

 

[MrMrdevincamus]

The old "anything is possible" argument hasn't worked for atheists so far, so I doubt it would change for technologically advanced extraterrestrials worthy of 'god status'.

In fact, if an alien spaceship landed on Earth and one of these super-technological entities popped out and claimed directly to be a god, many atheists would remain unconvinced. In fact, even if that alien performed technological miracles as demonstrable proofs, it still would not suffice. The atheists aren't going to start praying to technologically advanced super aliens if they are allowed to have any sort of choice in the matter.

I am talking about a being that even those ETs you mentioned would worship the ONE I am describing which has all the powers the Hebrew God had. It would not need a spacecraft because it created this universe and prob every detail in it down to all physical laws.

Moreover, many theists would reject the notion of an alien god as well and in the face of all of the same evidence, probable, improbable, plausible, implausible, evident, or not. It simply does not matter. Why?

Yes see above. However theists would not even know it was ET, and it would not matter because it would be that God. It could follow prophecy and could even helped man write the bible.

Because it's a thought exercise on a forum. That's why. It's like asking someone who's never been more than 3 feet from the ground what he would think if he were standing on a skyscraper. He's like, "What? You mean more than 3' off the ground?" It's like asking someone who's never been in an airplane before if he is afraid of flying in an airplane. It's like asking someone on the street what he thinks it would be like to be an astronaut in space.

Your precisely correct! However they would be expecting a space ship and little green men, not the living God Jesus coming as promised from the east and on a white horse, eyes as red as flame coming to do battle with the antichrist...

All we have are fanciful notions, there's no way to talk about it as if it were real, as if we understood what these aliens are actually like. It's actually easier to talk about metaphysical experiences that we have in common with other people than to talk about something outside of our experiences altogether. The people who say, "I would never do that" might end up being the people most strongly convinced if something actually were to happen - because until that moment arrives when it affects them personally, they can't really, actually, seriously entertain the idea or understand it in a meaningful way.

I agree, however if God/Jesus/5the being did return as promised I am sure there would be a lot fewer atheists after he 'landed'. lol, eh?

; {>

 

[Corvus]

Literally anything can "be God". All it takes is someone deciding to consider that object as a deity.

Indeed. If you believe the Sun is God then it's quite easy to point out your God on a cloudless day. Likewise you could focus your worship on a race of highly advanced ETs. Neither are supernatural, both are natural phenomenon as much a product of the universe as we are. Of course. I guess it depends on what you think God's nature is.

 

[MrMrdevincamus]

The online Merriam-Webster's doesn't define "Theistic", but dictionary.com does. Note defintion #2:


the definition of theistic

Edit: and the online Oxford dictionary:


theistic - definition of theistic in English | Oxford Dictionaries

1.
the belief in one God as the creator and ruler of the universe, withoutrejection of revelation (distinguished from deism ).
2.
belief in the existence of a god or gods (opposed to atheism ).

Your reply plays to my hand, thanks btw !


.

What posturing?


It seem that whatever conversation you're participating in isn't the same one as the rest of us. Nothing here addresses the positions I hold or anything I've said in this thread.

Posturing means avoiding saying an ET could be God. No one especially YOU have given a reason ET that I described (and that researchers said would be possible) could not be God. That is simple but understandable denial my friend.

; {>