How an atheist can believe in 'God'

[ADigitalArtist]

I can't actually reply to your post because the formatting got messed up.
I'm dont see the need to limit this discussion to one concept of god, no matter how relevant you think it is to you. But the term 'God' is hugely and broadly meaningful. And I use them to illustrate why some won't consider something you do a god to be a god. E.g. the universe meets the definition of a god to some is not meaningful to atheists who it doesn't. Similarly, an alien, even a highly advanced alien, is not supernatural to atheists for reasons I'm explaining to you but I don't think you're understanding.

And anyway I was comparing foglets to spirits and ghosts, something commonly thought of as supernatural, but would not be to me because they aren't non-physical. Even if it can do other things spirits are said to do.

 

[ADigitalArtist]

We just disagree and as I said reciprocal respectful disagreement can lead to productive debate.

I wish you would have stuck with that instead of the 'have another drink' bit.

 

[Corvus]

But I have to say you sound like my prideful and mostly angry self a couple decades back. Pride may be an a evolutionary vestige from our so called common ancestors.

We have little in common, now or then.

 

[Corvus]

By the definition the advanced 'being' is supernatural. Read the definition. You are inserting emotion where intellect and reasoning should go. That is normally what any atheist or theist would do. Basically you are saying I don't care if this 'being' is immortal, telepathic, intellect beyond comprehension, and this being can change the laws of nature at will, and even create universes, it is not supernatural. However by definition it is.

Your apparent failure to understand the meaning of the word supernatural is not my problem, old bean.

supernatural
ˌsuːpəˈnatʃ(ə)r(ə)l/
adjective

1. 1.
   (of a manifestation or event) attributed to some force beyond scientific understanding or the laws of nature.
   "a supernatural being"

Thus no alien species of this universe, no matter how advanced, technologically or mentally, can fit that description. Since any individual/group of any alien species would by definition be a creature(s) that evolved on another planet, ie a naturally manifested organism. A product of the laws of nature. Entirely scientifically understandable.


Your argument is easily refuted because it is not rational, since your premise, the interpretation of the meaning of the word SUPERNATURAL, is faulty. So let's hear no more disagreement from you sirrah, have the integrity and good sense to concede defeat when defeated.

I insert no emotion, I apply only cold logic to the facts. Now bring me tribute in the form of eyeballs and shinys.

 

[MrMrdevincamus]

I can't actually reply to your post because the formatting got messed up.

Uh huh, lol...The long replies get tiresome and difficult, I know. We should get paid for this!

I'm don't see the need to limit this discussion to one concept of god, no matter how relevant you think it is to you.

My friend you remind me of myself at a rebellious stage in my life. Ok again I have already answered this in post #. Apparently you did not read it, I am going to only repeat this one more time. Yes, I had to define God so everyone (well almost everyone) would understand the concept. If I had been general and included the thousands or maybe tens of thousands of Gods as examples how in the world would anyone make sense of that? And again I said I was using the Hebrew God as an EXAMPLE to show what attributes most people associate with a 'supernatural' being/God.

But the term 'God' is hugely and broadly meaningful. And I use them to illustrate why some won't consider something you do a god to be a god.

That's fine and wonderful! However you are using 'God' as an example in your thread to promote understanding, just like I ave. In your thread you must use a version or definition that fits the thread subject. That said I would not come into our thread and berate you for not using the Hebrew God or those examples!

the universe meets the definition of a god to some is not meaningful to atheists who it doesn't. Similarly, an alien, even a highly advanced alien, is not supernatural to atheists for reasons I'm explaining to you but I don't think you're understanding.

I am understand that YOU don't like the dictionary/academic definition of God and want to choose your version of God for my thread. If I used your version of God as an example of a supernatural being my thread would not make sense. And to add insult to injury I only used God to try and get you and one other member to understand the word 'supernatural' another word that you all' didn't like the dictionary definition. Just because you do not like the academic or dictionary definition of 'supernatural' and the definition of 'God' does not mean you can change it to fit what you think God should be! Also I have licens to use any descriptive term I see fit in my thread. And I did take time to reply to your concerns.

And anyway I was comparing foglets to spirits and ghosts, something commonly thought of as supernatural, but would not be to me because they aren't non-physical. Even if it can do other things spirits are said to do.

I understand you were trying to use Foglets as an example. However I dont think anyone on earth would say Foglets are supernatural. You of course are free to use them for an example but that particular example doesn't work well or at all.

Thanks for your reply, maybe there is hope we will establish a dialog as long as we keep it civil as possible.

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[MrMrdevincamus]

I wish you would have stuck with that instead of the 'have another drink' bit.

I am truly sorry and will ask your forgiveness, that was a low blow. My temper is the biggest stumbling block in taking my relationship with my God to a higher level, and its harmful to others as well. I am attempting to use the teachings of Jesus when my temper/pride flares up. Jesus always employed kindness and hospitality when speaking or meeting strangers, and considered all mankind as brothers and sisters.

Hebrew 13 ; Be not forgetful to entertain strangers: for thereby some have entertained angels unawares.
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[MrMrdevincamus]

We have little in common, now or then.

Yep more than we know I would wager!

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[MrMrdevincamus]

Your apparent failure to understand the meaning of the word supernatural is not my problem, old bean.

supernatural
ˌsuːpəˈnatʃ(ə)r(ə)l/
adjective

1.
(of a manifestation or event) attributed to some force beyond scientific understanding or the laws of nature.
"a supernatural being" THAT CAN PART THE RED SEA OR TURN THE EARTH BACK A DAY, OR DIE ON THE CROSS THEN BE RESURRECTED FOR EXAMPLE [/b] (Font in bold and the color red is my addition to promote clarity

No, that is exactly what I said. If a being creates a 'miracle' it is a supernatural event because the miracle can not be explained by science and said miracle violates, changes manipulates physical (natural) laws.

Thus no alien species of this universe, no matter how advanced, technologically or mentally, can fit that description. Since any individual/group of any alien species would by definition be a creature(s) that evolved on another planet, ie a naturally manifested organism. A product of the laws of nature. Entirely scientifically understandable.

Try to think way beyond that box. If a being created a universe it also could create the physical laws that governed it. It could give that universe a God that was by design able to violate the physical law of that universe, therefore the God is really is supernatural to the minions that inhabit the crated universe, and that universe could be the one we find ourselves in.

Your argument is easily refuted because it is not rational, since your premise, the interpretation of the meaning of the word SUPERNATURAL, is faulty.

I disagree. Read my replies, or better yet show a quote where I wrongly define supernatural! Use a direct quote not something you think I said. You will be unable to show one example! I have never had the experience where there is so much intentional misunderstanding.

If the members including you are not being malicious the only other reason for such thing is denial. The problem here is a refusal for the atheists not me to accept the simple definition of a word. That is pure denial plain and simple. I use the dictionary version of supernatural and have since the OT. Those that disagree have attempted to twist the definition of supernatural and of God, to tweak the definition even to make up their own definition of supernatural. The denial is understandable because it will force them to admit their world view is illogical. The denial is a form of emotion but in some cases it is more serious and the examples in this thread sound nearly like clinical denial. Their own posts show the level of emotional baggage is so great it clouds the intellect of those members. It finally dawned on our beloved atheists members that if ET could be God, even if that possibility is infinitesimally small, their entire world view would go bye bye. Christians if they can keep an open mind could easily accept Jesus/God was an advanced being without changing anything in their worldview. But I bet a large number of them would be jumping off the church steeple.

So let's hear no more disagreement from you sirrah, have the integrity and good sense to concede defeat when defeated.

Lol I will admit defeat when someone actually defeats my argument! When those that disagree with me must deny dictionary definitions, or has to change those definitions to fit their desires, they have already lost the debate. So it's time for them to come up with rebuttals that challenge my claims with FACTS, not emotion. Its time for them to use unadulterated definitions and concepts. I am sure they are hoping if they say it enough times eventually their falsehoods will turn into fact! Now that would be a freakin' miracle! Lol! BTW, just saying, there are other ways to insert a supernatural God into this conversation without it being an ET. Ever hear of Infinite Universe theory ? Google the MWI or many worlds interpretation. Its a fairly recent origins (of the universe(s) theory and it says some where anything imaginable (and things not imaginable suppose) is or has will take place. So a universe that has a Hebrew God in it is a given!

I insert no emotion, I apply only cold logic to the facts. Now bring me tribute in the form of eyeballs and shinys.

One of the points of the OT was to at least show (hard) atheists that their world view is not logical or rational. I wanted to show even if it was an tiny possibility God could exist.

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[MrMrdevincamus]

Some food for thought. A supernatural being DOES NOT HAVE TO BE NON CREATED. So that too enhances the validity of how I defined supernatural and of my thread in general. I simply used God to clarify what I meant when I referenced supernatural. I could of used other examples but the biblical God is well known example, much like the flip side where Hitler or Nazis are used as examples of evil. Below is a cut and paste of supernatural beings all of them created except for God ;

Hyponyms (each of the following is a kind of "supernatural being"):

deity; divinity; god; immortal (any supernatural being worshipped as controlling some part of the world or some aspect of life or who is the personification of a force)

aeon; eon ((Gnosticism) a divine power or nature emanating from the Supreme Being and playing various roles in the operation of the universe)

angel (spiritual being attendant upon God)

faerie; faery; fairy; fay; sprite (a small being, human in form, playful and having magical powers)

disembodied spirit; spirit (any incorporeal supernatural being that can become visible (or audible) to human beings)"

eh?

 

[Corvus]

When those that disagree with me must deny dictionary definitions, or has to change those definitions to fit their desires, they have already lost the debate. So it's time for them to come up with rebuttals that challenge my claims with FACTS, not emotion. Its time for them to use unadulterated definitions and concepts.

Amusing, but outright irrational. You were defeated. You just don't know it/cannot accept it. That happens a lot.

 

[Corvus]

My temper is the biggest stumbling block in taking my relationship with my God to a higher level, and its harmful to others as well. I am attempting to use the teachings of Jesus when my temper/pride flares up.

The ego is the enemy, it must be ruthlessly persecuted.

 

[ChristineM]

I do not understand your reasoning. What definition are you basing your reply on?

Dictionary definitions, in particular the oxford English dictionary but all other dictionaries agree.

atheism - definition of atheism in English | Oxford Dictionaries

 

[Desert Snake]

How would you know if it came back not in a space craft but from the sky that has opened as prophesied in the new testament. One of many verses describing Jesus return ; ie ;

1 Thessalonians 4:15-17:

For this we declare to you by a word from the Lord, that we who are alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord (Jesus), will not precede those who have fallen asleep. For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the voice of an archangel (like thunder), and with the sound of the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and

The main problem is that merely because someone may think some advanced alien is a god, doesn't really mean they're gods. The "definition", gets muddled, because what you are describing, is someone claiming an alien to be a god. Ok. However, that does not make that alien an 'god' to me, even if it is to someone else. 'god' , not the name, is subjective, and defined by the worshipper.

'Theism' being an obscure word anyway.

 

[MrMrdevincamus]

This is a notice that I am stop following this thread because it is becoming redundant, and the main idea has been discussed and answered (see below). I will check back when I see a email notification to see if a new take on the OT has been posted. I would be happy to answer discuss new questions or disagreements. I want to thank everyone who replied, even those who misunderstood the intent of the thread which led to the thread becoming misdirected, boring and nearly toxic. I am not blaming anyone just stating the facts as I understand them. The silly thing is the word definitions that some members had problems with would not effected the main idea of the OT at all! What follows is the short version (in blue font) where I explain why I think the OT has been vindicated.

For those that don't want to read the long version (in blue bold) MrMrM has mercy on you! I have condensed the OT down to a paragraph. Please if you have a question make sure I haven't covered it in the long version? Is it probable or possible that a race of beings so advanced they created this universe?

Yes, I think most would agree its possible but not probable a race could have advanced to the point of creating a universe. See below. Yes its a tiny version of a universe however its a good proof of concept, and who says a couple thousand years from now a full sized universe couldn't be created? A few thousand years of scientific attempts and still no universe? That's ok come back in a million years, or a billion years. The thing is there is so much time available anything is possible.

PHYSICISTS IN JAPAN PLAN TO CREATE NEW UNIVERSE IN LAB
USING THE HIGGS FIELD, SCIENTISTS THEORIZE IT IS POSSIBLE TO CAUSE A 'BABY UNIVERSE' TO BREAK OFF FROM OUR OWN, SAFELY
A radical new project could permit human beings to create a "baby universe" in a laboratory in Japan.

In several articles scientists have speculated that we humans will learn to exist in an non-corporal body that never dies will become super intelligent via computer to brain interface. So why couldn't a race million of years older than ours already accomplished that feat?

According to experts immortality will upon us in a few decades, not hundreds or thousands of years. So think about it! What if Einstein had lived for a few hundred or a thousand years? So by the weight of emerging technologies and the consensus of those that live and work daily with these disciplines I believe its possible for humans to attain most if not all God attributes. At the least given enough time humans could rival angels ability's. The sources listed below are only examples to show cause that the concept is being researched and sometimes various aspects are under experiment. I do not vouch for their validity etc.

The Year Man Becomes Immortal
We're fast approaching the moment when humans and machines merge. Welcome to the Singularity movementhttp://content.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,2048299,00.html
another

So again the OTs fulfilled its objectives at least the factual/academic ones. The most important final goal was not met due to the discussion being stuck and entangled and slowed to a boring crawl with disagreement about simple word definitions. That final goal was also meant to discuss the implications and 'what if's' of earths religions being influenced by advanced beings and other issues. The discussion was to cover these ET's coming to earth as God or Gods and the impact those revelations would have on atheists and believers of today.

Sample sources (below) >>
Humans Will Be Immortal By 2030s, Says Google's Ray ...
www.knowyourmobile.com › Google

Jun 08, 2015 · Humans Will Be Immortal By 2030s, Says Google's Ray Kurzweil. ... humans will develop “the means to instantly create new portions of ourselves, ...

PS I DO SEE A FEW NEW POSTS AND I WILL READ AND RESPOND, IT THEY HAVEN'T ALREADY BEEN COVERED, TANKS' AGAIN ~

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[MrMrdevincamus]

The ego is the enemy, it must be ruthlessly persecuted.

Correct, its like too many apps running on a PC and sucking memory resources. Ego, anger, pride etc slows me down and takes the edge off my concentration. I learned that when trying to improve my chess game. DC'ing the beer until after the game is a good idea too!

 

[MrMrdevincamus]

Amusing, but outright irrational. You were defeated. You just don't know it/cannot accept it. That happens a lot.

How exactly am I defeated when the OT does not even allow for such an outcome? What exactly is amusing? You did not say so maybe you will let us in on the joke. Also since you were afraid to use precise examples what is irrational? Lets take this one point at a time so I can take your entire redundant faux argument apart in about half a second and expose it for what it really is, pure unadulterated crap.

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[MrMrdevincamus]

The main problem is that merely because someone may think some advanced alien is a god, doesn't really mean they're gods. The "definition", gets muddled, because what you are describing, is someone claiming an alien to be a god. Ok. However, that does not make that alien an 'god' to me, even if it is to someone else. 'god' , not the name, is subjective, and defined by the worshipper.

'Theism' being an obscure word anyway.

With all due respect you (and two or three)* are dancing around the definition of 'supernatural'. Don't get mad, it's a human condition. First, it's not that I think an advanced being is God, if the ET had all the abilities of God it would indeed be God! 'Ouch!'..... I will throw my adversities a bone tho'. This deity would have to think it was God for me to feel it was God. And how would anyone prove what another sentient being was thinking? But you see, all this is emotional baggage! Its me admitting my own emotional weaknesses. If I can admit its emotions that will not allow me to believe, or TO BELIEVE in God, well my atheist brothers and sisters, you too are on the path to truth, and truth will set you free!


NOTES;

* Define supernatural.... This should be simple. I do understand why some of you would redefine this word for this discussion. And really this thread was not meant to draw absolute conclusions. The only real point of the OT was to discuss 'the what if' God was an advanced race that rendered its self down to an disembodied 'spirit'. Or could God be an super involved human from a million years in the future?Things like that. However I think the thread has become a bit toxic, which is too bad. It started out well enough...

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