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How and why did you reject christ?

BilliardsBall

Veteran Member
It certainly is, naively as it may seem to you that it's not.

Oh, really?

Neither does Rambam. I actually gave you the entire quote. I copied it by hand. He says: ייחוד ה' not ה' הוא יחיד.

Look, the debate turned into a whole 'nother ball game when you stated that you were born Jewish. I can't ignore that fact. As I'm sure you know, in Judaism you'd be regarded a heretic. Considering that most rabbis today say that there aren't any real heretics anymore, you're probably more along the lines of a תינוק שנשבה. It may seem like an insult, but it's a simple fact. Jews who have converted to some other religion are different from non-Jewish adherents of those religions. I'll assume therefore that you're a תינוק שנשבה. So no, I don't consider you villain. I guess I feel sorry for you.

I and all of the Jewish Judaism-adherents disagree now and have always disagreed with the suggestion that God is plural in any sort of way. That Christians continue claiming otherwise shows ignorance in the Hebrew language and in the Torah. That you have the gall to suggest that Rambam, one of the greatest sages ever, thought: a. that God was wrong. b. that he helped invent the oneness of God though he apparently knew that god is plural - well, that frankly amazes me. I probably wouldn't have said anything to you had you not brought the Rambam into the mix, yourself.

You feel I have lost focus in the debate? You're free to back out.

My argument is that in the 2nd Temple era, God was known to be plural, and Rambam did the 13 and other things to distinct us better during times of persecution.

Another argument that stems from the first is this--we Jews avoid talking about plural statements like "LORD-GOD-KING of the Universe" or echad in shema since we want to be cautious to avoid Christianity.

My third argument is that Tanakh agrees with me, not Rambam, since he felt yachid was needed to describe God, where Tanakh ONLY used echad.

My fourth argument is that you are putting Rambam above Tanakh--which is abhorrent to me as someone who loves the Word of God.

Lost focus? You never had focus, did you? You haven't made a single statement addressing any of the four arguments above.

What you have done is use some base arguments like "you insult our mighty sage" and "you're a heretic". Do those arguments make me wish to deconvert? You know why not?

Because if being a Jew means judging me by my circumcision and Bar Mitzvah and being a Christian means judging me by the love I show and the truth I know, you can call me a Christian.

In the meantime, if you were to love and respect me by addressing the actual case presented or ceasing with insults, I might be tempted to say, "Jews love like the Christians love".
 

syo

Well-Known Member
You rejected him by saying gods are true even though he said they were false? Intentionally "getting him back"? Can't think of the right word or phrase.

If jesus was fake, what was your personal relationship based on to where you can reject it?
I was taught jesus at school as being true and we must walk the path of Jesus that leads to the true god. later I found out that all these are lies.
 

BilliardsBall

Veteran Member
When the Messiah comes, he will be recognized by the entire world. He simply hasn't come yet.

Jesus, btw, is NOT recognized by the whole world.

Isaiah 11:10 is interesting in that it prophecies that the Messiah will be of the Davidic line (Jesse's tree). Christians don't even realize they have a problem with this. The Davidic line passes through the biological father, not the mother, not some foster father or adopted father. Now, according to Christians, Joseph was not Jesus' bio dad (supposedly Jesus had no bio dad). Do you see where I am headed with this? Josephs genealogy is worthless. Mary's genealogy is worthless. You have nothing to document Jesus being of Davidic heritage.

So this was your very best example? Of all the "hundreds" of so-called messianic prophesies that Christians claim ( and you did actually at least offer a genuine messianic prophesy at least -- thank you) this was the one you thought was the best, most obvious, unassailable one? Because I tore it down pretty easily.

Do you have Tanakh scriptures that Messiah will be recognized by the entire world? Now, Jesus is a pretty good candidate--in terms of 1/3 of the world says He's God and 1/3 of the world (Muslim) says He's a sinless prophet and Lord of Judgment Day, which is why--looks like to me--you didn't actually address the verse I shared, saying the JEWISH Messiah will be pursued by the GENTILES. Do you have a 3/3 of the world scripture from Tanakh or not?

Jesus has two lines of genealogy in the gospels--Joseph's is through Solomon, David's Son, the line that in Tanakh was told they would LOSE the throne of Israel. Jesus was the closest descendant to David's line through Solomon. Mary's line was through Nathan, David's Son. So Jesus was able to fulfill both prophecies (Solomon's kingly line would end, David's line would bring an eternal king). Adopting Jesus by Joseph passed Joseph's title line to Jesus.

Are you unfamiliar with Tanakh where it tells us Jechoniah will be the FINAL king from David's line? If the Messiah hasn't come yet, He has to do what Yeshua did in His birth, too (have a mother who traces to David and a father who passes the title line from Solomon by adoption, which of course, would also make the coming Messiah a great-grandson of the Joseph who married Mary/Miriam)!

Why did you rejoice in "tearing it down pretty easily"? I feel only sad when when Jews tear each other apart. There are too few of us to keep doing so.
 

BilliardsBall

Veteran Member
In that imaginary sci-fi setting (somehow, I only ever see Christians ask guys like me this question. Have religious Jews ever asked you this?), I'd tell him we received zero warning about an infinite entity changing his mind about something he said is eternal. Frankly, I'm not sure I would even want to live in an all-Jesus/all-Christianity reality.

So, what would you tell God today if He asked you why you threw away your Judaism for an empty shell of fiction?

I don't understand what you mean by "I'd tell him we received zero warning about an infinite entity changing his mind about something he said is eternal." Torah/Tanakh is eternal, it simply pointed me to Yeshua. What are you saying?

Yes, only Christians tend to ask others about their eternity, because the power is with the only living King, our eternal God and Savior. It strikes me that Muslims and others who lack assurance also lack the desire to witness.
 

BilliardsBall

Veteran Member
I'm glad to hear that a "born again" Christian still has free will, which means he is free to walk away from God. God's ultimate will is to have children who mature and grow and freely love and obey him. For that sake of his ultimate will, he sets aside his ability to control what he do, though he has that power.



Why do you feel the need to mock? Does it meet some kind of emotional need? Because it does nothing for the discussion. A personal attack doesn't help you win your case.

I have read all sorts of religious texts, the Quran, the Tao Te Ching, the Analects, many sutras, and others, and have collected the legends of indigenous peoples. For me, a forum of interfaith discussion is a true home. My one regret is that I spent so much time studying the religions of the world, that I lack the depth of teaching in Judaism that I wish now I had. But I'm only half way through my life, so I'm setting about correcting this.

I've read the totality of your Christian scriptures more than once, including for a university course, which was my first time through the whole thing. In addition, I have studied this religion which is the dominant religion of my Western culture and country. I have been particularly interested in the first and second century period, when the cauldron of second temple Judaism produced both Rabbinical Judaism and Christianity. I have also read Christian history with the lens of how development of doctrines such as Trinitarianism effected the well being of Jews. I especially enjoy reading books by learned Rabbis and Jewish scholars regarding Christian issues, such as Harvey Falk's "Jesus the Pharisee" and Richard Rubenstein's "When Jesus became God." I'm also still friends with Christians I knew back in the BBS days of the pre-internet era. I learned an enormous amount from the religion forums back then.

Since you asked.

Yes, I have the free will to walk away from the God who loves me and died for me, though I cannot imagine why I would do so unless I had some deep-rooted addiction to self-harm, and thankfully, if I walk away, I still have eternal life (the consequences for backslidden behavior are temporal).

I'm not mocking you--I was asking some QUESTIONS. You haven't answered, I think, ANY of my questions. I appreciate your diverse knowledge base and that, unlike most, you've read the entire New Testament. My background is that I changed to a Bachelor's of Religion after getting saved at university, and I've got a strong knowledge of both Judaism and Christianity. So I questioned your misunderstanding that the statement the plural gift of God in Romans 11 have to do with Jews only--and the "benefit" of being in the vine in Romans 11 hardly compares with other Romans statements about Israel. Other chapters say better things like "Ours are the patriarchs, promises, giving of Torah, the Temple Service," etc.

Romans 11: [all the] giftS of God are irrevocable
Romans 6: salvation is a free gift

Regardless of free will, as a saved Jew, I cannot lose my salvation (nor can Israel lose their election/chosenness/blessings/covenants).
 

BilliardsBall

Veteran Member
The larger meaning? I don't really know. Like I said, I'm not attracted to prophecy, so if you want a real in depth discussion, you'll have to find someone else.

But as for the 69 sevens? It refers to a period of time. Since more than one decree was given to rebuild the temple, we don't really have a starting date, so it becomes worthless as a reed of measurement. And as for the 69 sevens, who knows. I don't believe it refers to an exact amount of years. But that's just me. Like I said, I'm not a prophecy buff. If you want the Jewish understanding of it, you are better off asking one of the others.

I think I can help--in context, Daniel's "shabuas" or sevens are years.

Decree to rebuild Jerusalem plus 69x7 Bible liturgical festival years (360 days each) = Pesach 33 AD, when Messiah the Prince died, per Daniel's prediction.

Yeshua may not be the Messiah, it could be another Davidic descendant who was born in Bethlehem than died on Pesach 33 AD. :)

PS. "I'm not attracted to prophecy" is not a substitute for overlooking obvious prophecies about Yeshua HaMashiach. And if you're not attracted to prophecy, why did you ask me to share some strong prophecies? To tear at them? To tear me down? That doesn't seem nice and is the kind of difficult behavior fellow Jews make against Messianics all the time--it draws us closer to Yeshua, not away from Him.

After all our people have been through, being the least of all peoples (0.25% of the world's population) you want to marginalize me more? Why?!
 

IndigoChild5559

Loving God and my neighbor as myself.
Do you have Tanakh scriptures that Messiah will be recognized by the entire world?
Yes they do.

Now, Jesus is a pretty good candidate--in terms of 1/3 of the world says He's God and 1/3 of the world (Muslim) says He's a sinless prophet and Lord of Judgment Day, which is why--looks like to me--you didn't actually address the verse I shared, saying the JEWISH Messiah will be pursued by the GENTILES. Do you have a 3/3 of the world scripture from Tanakh or not?
Why are you contaminating the discussion with Islamic ideas of Jesus? They do not believe Jesus is God and the Messiah as you do. Technically that means, according to Chrisitanity, that they are not following Jesus.

Nothing in prophecy says the messiah will be sinless.

I have addressed your claim. It is spurious. The verses about Gentiles accepting the Messiah refer to all the world. Not 1/3.

Jesus has two lines of genealogy in the gospels.
Both genealogies are completely worthless. In order for tribal affiliation with Judah or lineage to David to be established, his biological father would have to have that direct line. Not a foster father or adopted father, and not his mother. You're monkey's wrench is the so-called virgin birth (which was NOT prophesied). In order to establish a Davidic line for Jesus, he has to have a biological father of that line. You have to choose: virgin birth or Davidic line. You can't have both.
 

Harel13

Am Yisrael Chai
Staff member
Premium Member
What are you saying?
All that "nobody can keep the laws"/"Jesus "fulfilled" the law"/"we're all sinners who can't repent without being born again first"/ etc nonsense.
Not to mention a whole bunch of flaws in Jesus.
My argument is that in the 2nd Temple era, God was known to be plural, and Rambam did the 13 and other things to distinct us better during times of persecution.
You have zero proof for that, other than the claims of a band of nut-jobs from that era.
"LORD-GOD-KING of the Universe"
I have no idea what you're talking about.
or echad in shema since we want to be cautious to avoid Christianity.
Same.
My third argument is that Tanakh agrees with me, not Rambam, since he felt yachid was needed to describe God, where Tanakh ONLY used echad.
It is quite unfortunate that you don't know Hebrew very well.
My fourth argument is that you are putting Rambam above Tanakh--which is abhorrent to me as someone who loves the Word of God.
Again, since I deny your misinterpretation of the Tanach, I don't like you claiming the Rambam said things that he did not say nor imply things that he did not imply. Again, it's unfortunate that you don't understand how the Hebrew language works.
Lost focus? You never had focus, did you? You haven't made a single statement addressing any of the four arguments above.
I have, but hey, classic Christian, ignoring what's in front of your eyes. You know, Ramban (with an N) won a debate against a convert to Christianity much like yourself. The local Christians were so furious that they kicked Ramban out of town.
Disputation of Barcelona
you can call me a Christian.
Good to know.
ceasing with insults
תינוק שנשבה isn't an insult. I do in fact feel sorry for you.

Well, since we know where we both stand, I'll be taking my leave from this thread now. Have a pleasant day.
 

IndigoChild5559

Loving God and my neighbor as myself.
Yes, I have the free will to walk away from the God who loves me and died for me, though I cannot imagine why I would do so unless I had some deep-rooted addiction to self-harm, and thankfully, if I walk away, I still have eternal life (the consequences for backslidden behavior are temporal).

So I questioned your misunderstanding that the statement the plural gift of God in Romans 11 have to do with Jews only--and the "benefit" of being in the vine in Romans 11 hardly compares with other Romans statements about Israel. Other chapters say better things like "Ours are the patriarchs, promises, giving of Torah, the Temple Service," etc.
Romans 11 is much more fascinating to me than the bulk of Paul's writings, because it states his beliefs regarding Jews who don't share a belief in Jesus, that our covenant is not null and void (a very different statement than the author of Hebrews, who says our covenant is old and passing away). He also believes that Israel as a people will b saved. This is quite different from the usual Christian claim that Jews are lost to salvation because we reject Jesus.

Yes, I'm familiar with the verse about "Ours [Jews'] are the patriarch, promises.." etc. Paul makes a point of warning gentile believers of being arrogant towards Jews who don't believe in Jesus.

Regardless of free will, as a saved Jew, I cannot lose my salvation (nor can Israel lose their election/chosenness/blessings/covenants).

Now you are contradicting yourself. Didn't you just say that you could walk away? Having the choice to walk away means you have free will. Saying you CANNOT lose your salvation means no free will. But to be very honest, I don't think this tangent is one I want to pursue. Despite Judaism's adherence to free agency, the whole argument of "Once saved always saved" is a debate between Chrisitans -- one which you guys will never agree on.

Be well, my friend.[/quote]
 
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IndigoChild5559

Loving God and my neighbor as myself.
I think I can help--in context, Daniel's "shabuas" or sevens are years.

Decree to rebuild Jerusalem plus 69x7 Bible liturgical festival years (360 days each) = Pesach 33 AD, when Messiah the Prince died, per Daniel's prediction.

Yeshua may not be the Messiah, it could be another Davidic descendant who was born in Bethlehem than died on Pesach 33 AD. :)

PS. "I'm not attracted to prophecy" is not a substitute for overlooking obvious prophecies about Yeshua HaMashiach. And if you're not attracted to prophecy, why did you ask me to share some strong prophecies? To tear at them? To tear me down? That doesn't seem nice and is the kind of difficult behavior fellow Jews make against Messianics all the time--it draws us closer to Yeshua, not away from Him.

After all our people have been through, being the least of all peoples (0.25% of the world's population) you want to marginalize me more? Why?!
I'm really not interested in the meaning of the sevens in Daniel. I don't believe we know what it is. Jewish theology may have other ideas. I am not educated enough in Jewish prophecy to give an adequate answer.

I asked you for Messianic Prophecies. No one in Christian history thinks that the date for the Messiah can be nailed down. Don't you think if it were this easy, that your Christian scriptures would mention it? But no, the writers of your Christian scriptures did not consider this evidence.

I asked you for your best so-called prophecy because the bulk of Christian so-called prophecies are not prophecies at all, or they are quoted out of context by Chrisitans, or misquoted, or simply made up. I wanted to enlighten you to these things.

Christians need to be familiar with the Jewish perspective, because in your ignorance of the Tanakh and of Judaism, it appears to you that it is more than obvious Jesus is the Messiah, and Jews must be crazy not to believe. Well, we are a long ways from crazy, and you need to be familiar with what we think if you are going to argue for your beliefs with Jews.
 

Unveiled Artist

Veteran Member
@Unveiled Artist

Hey, I just found this. This was my parish where I was baptized and confirmed as a teenager along with my mom. Just thought you'd enjoy it.


I meant to get back at you. That's a beautiful mass. I had pictures former friend took of me getting baptised. I didn't keep it. I gave everything away and the Bible they gave me to the neighbors here in my complex. The only Christian thing in my apartment is a mini statue of saint Francis. But keep that as a keep sake. Thank you for sharing it.
 

Saint Frankenstein

Here for the ride
Premium Member
I meant to get back at you. That's a beautiful mass. I had pictures former friend took of me getting baptised. I didn't keep it. I gave everything away and the Bible they gave me to the neighbors here in my complex. The only Christian thing in my apartment is a mini statue of saint Francis. But keep that as a keep sake. Thank you for sharing it.
You're welcome. I knew you would enjoy it. I love St. Francis, too, as you can tell by my profile. :)
 

Vouthon

Dominus Deus tuus ignis consumens est
Premium Member
Romans 11 is much more fascinating to me than the bulk of Paul's writings, because it states his beliefs regarding Jews who don't share a belief in Jesus, that our covenant is not null and void

Unsurprisingly, Nostra Aetate relied almost exclusively upon Romans 11 as its scriptural reference-point for a positive reappraisal of Judaism, arguing against supersessionism and deicide, without citing Hebrews even once (which was conspicuous by its absence).

Its references are as follows:


Nostra aetate


1. Cf. Acts 17:26

2. Cf. Wis. 8:1; Acts 14:17; Rom. 2:6-7; 1 Tim. 2:4

3. Cf. Apoc. 21:23f.

4. Cf 2 Cor. 5:18-19

5. Cf St. Gregory VII, letter XXI to Anzir (Nacir), King of Mauritania (Pl. 148, col. 450f.)

6. Cf. Gal. 3:7

7. Cf. Rom. 11:17-24

8. Cf. Eph. 2:14-16

9. Cf. Lk. 19:44

10. Cf. Rom. 11:28

11. Cf. Rom. 11:28-29; cf. dogmatic Constitution, Lumen Gentium (Light of nations) AAS, 57 (1965) pag. 20

12. Cf. Is. 66:23; Ps. 65:4; Rom. 11:11-32

13. Cf. John. 19:6

14. Cf. Rom. 12:18

15. Cf. Matt. 5:45

No trace of Hebrews.

A Rabbi once, somewhat humorously, paraphrased the argument in Hebrews as being akin to, "anything Jews can do, Christ can do better" i.e. because of its apparent claims - in an unuanced, straight reading - that Jesus represents a better covenant, a better tabernacle, a better sacrifice, a better (spiritual and eternal) Temple and a better (eternal) high priest than Judaism, with those infamous Melchizedek passages.

As Gilbert Rosenthal notes, Nostra Aetate rejected this theology:


A Jubilee for All Time

It calls for dialogue between the two faiths. And rather than advocating proselytizing Jews, it cites Paul's views in Romans 9-11, which stress that Christianity is the new shoot grafted on the old, nurturing roots of Judaism and that God does not renege on His promises or calling, and it looks forward to an eschatological joining of the two faiths in worshipping the one God (Zephaniah 3:9). By citing Romans 9-11, Nostra Aetate rejects the usual interpretation of the Letter to the Hebrews chapter 8 that seems to portray Judaism as obsolete and passe. To put it differently, Romans trumps Hebrews.


Indeed, the most recent Vatican document on Jewish-Catholic dialogue was again prefixed around an exegesis of Romans 11 and it's "olive tree" framework:

“The gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable” (Rom 11:29) - A reflection on theological questions pertaining to Catholic-Jewish relations (10 December 2015)

The New Perspective on Paul in New Testament scholarship, spearheaded by E.P. Sanders and including in its ranks Jewish scholars such as Paula Fredriksen, has done great work in teasing out all of the exegetical nuances of Pauline thought on Judaism.

It is arguably very clear now - to me at least, anyway - that the traditional Protestant interpretation of his authentic Epistles is pretty far off the mark (he did not, for example, set a "gospel of grace" against a "works" based Judaism but was rather concerned with intra-Christian disputes over the integration of non-Torah observant Gentiles into the movement and a proper understanding of his Epistles is impossible without invoking that context).

Of course, Catholics are very happy with the New Perspective turn in scholarship, as we've never believed in sole fide (faith alone) and "once saved, always saved" anyway, so the new scholarly perspective on Paul is actually like our old one in many respects.

Emblematic of the New Perspective is the work of Paula Fredriksen. A review of her books here:


Enter Paul: On Paula Fredriksen’s “Paul: The Pagans’ Apostle” and “When Christians Were Jews” - Los Angeles Review of Books


Put it this way: an itinerant rabbi from the Galilee — the backwaters of Palestine — leads a popular movement among the Jews, one that comes to an ignominious end when he is executed for sedition by the Roman authorities. Some of his followers form a small community in Jerusalem, proclaiming that not only was this rabbi and prophet the longed-for Messiah of Israel, but he is alive, in glory with God, vested with impregnable power and heavenly authority. These messianic Jews share goods in common and worship daily at the temple, praying and waiting eagerly for Jesus’s imminent return, when he will drive out the pagan occupiers and restore his people’s fortunes.

Pause the frame there. Nothing about this picture offers even a hint that this same community — one defined by exclusive loyalty to Jesus, Israel’s Messiah and Lord — will, centuries hence, find itself filling the Roman Empire, legalized and endorsed by that same empire, dominated by gentiles, not Jews, and led by men like Aurelius Augustinus Hipponensis.

How did this happen? Why did it happen? To answer, we need to leave Augustine behind and follow Fredriksen into the world of the eastern Mediterranean in the first century of the common era, specifically Jewish life under the thumb of the Roman Empire...

Common Christian teaching on this point says something like the following. The coming of Jesus is the end of the Law of Moses. The Law was once the means of knowing and obeying God’s will, and thus of shaping the life of God’s chosen people. But now God’s people is the church, not Israel, defined by faith in Jesus, which is available to all humanity. The works of the Law fail because humans cannot do enough good to achieve the righteousness requisite for life with God; it is the tragedy of the Jews that they think they can save themselves through such efforts, refusing the free gift of salvation through Jesus. If any ethnic Jews accept that gift, and come to faith, then they should cease Torah observance, for otherwise they would be continuing in the old way of things. The result: A new people of God, shorn of theologically relevant ethnic distinctions, universal in every way, a “new humanity” of Jews and gentiles indistinguishable one from the other. More than any other author in the New Testament, Paul is claimed as proponent and progenitor of this view. Fredriksen begs to differ.

First, she says that this view makes mockery of the history and election of the Jews. God calls them and gives them the Law, only to punish them for seeking to obey it. Second, it undermines the goodness and trustworthiness of God. God unconditionally and irrevocably bound himself to Abraham’s descendants as his people forever. Yet here he is said to have replaced them with another, on other grounds. How could this be the same God as the One spoken of in Genesis, Deuteronomy, Isaiah, and Jeremiah? Third, it does not fit the evidence of the New Testament itself. The Book of Acts makes no mention of the apostles or early believers giving up the Law. The only relevant question is whether gentiles who believe ought also to keep the Law. The answer is no for them, but not for Jews — Jews, that is, who belong to the church and have faith in Jesus.

This picture suggests the fourth and most important point, connecting back to Paul. The vision of the gospel gathering gentiles to Israel before Jesus’s victorious reappearance only makes sense if the resulting community consists of distinct Jews and distinct gentiles. That is why Paul fought so hard against, then worked so hard for, gentiles to remain gentiles even as they spurned idols for worship, in Jesus’s spirit, of the one God alone. How could the gentiles be distinct as gentiles if the Jews did not remain distinct as Jews? Jews aren’t distinct by mere parentage: their sons are circumcised, they rest on the Sabbath, they observe kashrut, and so on. For Paul or the other apostles to reject the Torah for themselves and fellow Jews would be to give up their Jewish identity, and thus to compromise the project of a single community worshiping the God of Israel “with one voice,” as Paul puts it — Jews-as-Jews and gentiles-as-gentiles.
 
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firedragon

Veteran Member
Why did you reject christ after having a genuine personal relationship with and his god?

Did you have a conversation with him (if you had a genuine relationship with christ before) and told me hey, see ya? or had a deep talk of departure?

If you had a genuine relationship with the christian god directly, the same questions.

Many people reject christianity, but I'm wondering if they had a relationship with christ, how did they reject christ and/or his god. There is a difference.

For me, I never had a relationship with christ's father. Never believed he existed. Christ, I can kinda understand, because he was a human flesh and blood. That, and I do believe in spirits (say of my loved ones), so this wasn't too hard to "get." The more I worshiped, the less I worshiped. It was an intense feeling of "this isn't right for you." Then I say and thought about what my priest said to me before I went to RCIA. "Maybe you should wait." Now, if Churches want you to come to church and be saved, what priest would ask you to wait first?

So, however you define it, I said in so many words "hey, jesus. I know you're important to people. I can't believe in human sacrifice. (I feel its wrong to worship 'you' as a person/flesh/however defined). This is my last actual Mass.

That's it.

I'm more open than most since I really have nothing to hide about my spiritual life. I did read a native american quote (I posted it somewhere). The author of this book asked her chief if she can use his words in her book. He says, "Of course you can use them. They are not my words, but of god". (Context please)

Why did you reject christ after having a genuine personal relationship with and his god?

Are you sure you have not rejected the Christ?
 

Unveiled Artist

Veteran Member
You're welcome. I knew you would enjoy it. I love St. Francis, too, as you can tell by my profile. :)

I was thinking of saint Francis as a confirmation saint. I picked Gutrude since my sponsor mentioned it wasnt too common. I found gutrude is a purgatory saint. I like the nature and Francis thought.

Whose your patron saint?
 
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