How Are Atheists or Secularists Harming You, Your Kids or Your Country?

[Willamena]

Jesus. Your one of those guys.
Disgusting.

Mostly penguin Jesus.

 

[Willamena]

At some point, idealism needs to actually become pragmatic action.

Only if you equate pragmatism with action.

The reason I harp on about the 2015 science curriculum is it is a simple example of something with a hard deadline and a practical impact. 'Harmony', 'negotiation' and this concept of a 'third class' are all well and good, but in no way do they illustrate how your idealism would impact on reality, or actual decision impacting on the classroom.

I am completely in favour of harmony and negotiation. I'm also quite idealistic, and generally optimistic. However, I'll readily admit that you'll never reach consensus positions on everything. I am completely at a loss as to how you could think differently, to be honest.

To take an overly idealistic position whilst not being able to apply this to a practical situation means that your ideals will remain divorced from decisions being made. In effect, your decision becomes non-action. To effect action, you need to determine the best way of applying your idealistic viewpoint, which is (I would readily admit) very difficult and frustrating to do. In this particular case, if you believe inclusion of creationism to science curriculum can be catered for, whilst building harmony between all sides, I'd suggest you're mistaken.

If I'm misunderstanding you, on the other hand, more than happy to be clarified.

I didn't intend to indicate anything about impacting on reality, so you read it correctly.

 

[lewisnotmiller]

Only if you equate pragmatism with action.

Well...sorta. What I intended was that at some point, idealism needs to lead to action. 'Pragmatic' was more just my value judgement on the nature of the required action.
So, idealism could lead to action which is NOT pragmatic in nature, like getting all the interested parties in a room to discuss how they'd drive the science curriculum (in my example). But ultimately, a decision on the actual science curriculum needs to be made. This involves concrete decisions and documentation which impacts on actual teaching delivered. So in my terms, pragmatic.

I didn't intend to indicate anything about impacting on reality, so you read it correctly.

I like talking to you, since you look at things from a different angle to me, and it makes me think. I also find it frustrating, since you look at things from a different angle to me...lol
What help is idealism divorced from action?

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Jesus. Your one of those guys.
Disgusting. No respect, but I bet you like it that way love ya

I figure that sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander. If the Christians can co-opt Yule from the Pagans, I can co-opt Christmas from the Christians.

 

[Willamena]

What help is idealism divorced from action?

The world isn't made of just actions, it is shaped by beliefs.

 

[lewisnotmiller]

The world isn't made of just actions, it is shaped by beliefs.

Not if those are divorced from practical application.
Whether the beliefs are directly actioned by the believer, or whether they inspire the actions of others, the beliefs eventually inspire action.

Beliefs that DON'T inspire action hold no value.

 

[Woodrow LI]

These questions go out to theists, atheists, agnostics and pretty much any dairy product you can think of.

(1) In what ways are the actions of atheists or secularists threatening you, family, or the country?
For example, just off the top of my head I can imagine someone saying that teaching evolution is harmful to their children, or that it is important that the people running this country believe in God.

(2) Are atheists trying to convert people in the same way that religious people do?

(3) If atheists are trying to convert people, Is it better or worse than when people of other religions try to do the same?

(4) would a rise in secularism be bad for America? Why or why not?

1. The majority are causing no harm. The problem arises with the militant few that insist on disrupting religious forums or teachings and incite hatred.

2. A small number are very adamant about doing so. They are becoming very common on religious forums.

3. No different than a person of a different faith trying to sway adherents of another faith to their ideology

4. I do not see why Secularism need to be of any issue to Religious beliefs. I do not see any reason a theist can not be secular. I do not see the question as being a problem. It is like asking if a rise in the liking of Vanilla ice Cream would be bad for America.

 

[Mohammad Nur Syamsu]

No offence, but that's NOT practical. That's idealistic.
At some point, unfortunately, ideals are sullied. There are quite literally people who sit around making decisions about curriculum. One of those decisions (in America) seems to be whether creationism is included as part of the curriculum.

Offering harmony and negotiation as a solution does not assist in planning classroom curriculum for 2015.
*shrugs*

Would you include it or not?

If not teach creationism entirely....one could just teach about how things are chosen in the universe. It is very important practically for people to learn about how choosing works. Science is simply WHACK for denying free will is real.

Increased atheism would surely spread huge ignorance about freedom, but also provide a little increase in knowledge about how things are forced.

I had 1 day education in the USA as a kid. The teacher asked the class to write an essay on all sorts of personal questions about what we liked, and what we did on the weekend. This NEVER happened in class in the Netherlands. School is just for learning you see, that is the secular atheist mindset. Me and my siblings aced all those tests at the American school, they were about 2 years backward in the USA. But I think I can safely say that the USA kids were much more grown up than we were.

 

[Mohammad Nur Syamsu]

I'm not at all sure I need to respect beliefs that have no evidence to support them. Why should I?

See....what this means in practise is that ALL subjectivity is surpressed or thrown out the window. Objectivity works based on evidence forcing to a conclusion, resulting in a fact. But the point of subjectivity is that you choose the conclusion yourself whether love or hate is real. You form an opinion, it matters very much the way you choose, how you identify what you like, how one "like" you have relates to all your other likes and dislikes, etc. etc.

That is the evil which secularism / atheism is inclined towards, that it only really validates objectivity.

 

[lewisnotmiller]

If not teach creationism entirely....one could just teach about how things are chosen in the universe. It is very important practically for people to learn about how choosing works. Science is simply WHACK for denying free will is real.

Science is science. It's a process followed to establish evidence based conclusions. It has no opinion on anything, including free will.

Increased atheism would surely spread huge ignorance about freedom, but also provide a little increase in knowledge about how things are forced.

Atheism and/or secularism does not determine one's understanding of free will. A key tenet of secularism is allowing all the ability to choose for themselves.

I had 1 day education in the USA as a kid. The teacher asked the class to write an essay on all sorts of personal questions about what we liked, and what we did on the weekend. This NEVER happened in class in the Netherlands. School is just for learning you see, that is the secular atheist mindset.

Actually, that's complete bunkum. I won't comment on the Dutch education system, but I'm a qualified teacher, and an atheist. I taught primary kids for several years, and I will absolutely guarantee you that I employed holistic learning models, was not a big fan of standardised testing, and since creative writing is a favourite hobby of mine, encouraged my kids to be little writers and readers every chance I got. More than that, I tried to install a passion for it in those that showed an interest.

I also coached the basketball and football teams, got them to say please and thank-you, went on every school camp going, and had several of the children with more difficult home lives in my class. None of this has a thing to do with either atheism or secularism. You're attacked a straw man. At best, you're extrapolating issues you perceive in Dutch education, and putting it down to secularism.

Me and my siblings aced all those tests at the American school, they were about 2 years backward in the USA. But I think I can safely say that the USA kids were much more grown up than we were.

So...your argument is that a non-secular upbringing makes you grow up quicker?

 

[lewisnotmiller]

See....what this means in practise is that ALL subjectivity is surpressed or thrown out the window. Objectivity works based on evidence forcing to a conclusion, resulting in a fact. But the point of subjectivity is that you choose the conclusion yourself whether love or hate is real. You form an opinion, it matters very much the way you choose, how you identify what you like, how one "like" you have relates to all your other likes and dislikes, etc. etc.

That is the evil which secularism / atheism is inclined towards, that it only really validates objectivity.

You should come and join in some of the threads where atheists argue that morals are subjective. It'd be a change to have someone tell us we're too quick to only believe in objective items.

 

[Secret Chief]

I fear that the blood won't literally be turned into wine; making me a vampire rather than a desperate lush.

 

[Mohammad Nur Syamsu]

and since creative writing is a favourite hobby of mine, encouraged my kids to be little writers and readers every chance I got. More than that, I tried to install a passion for it in those that showed an interest.

But that's just typical you see. You shift the focus on the results of a decision, the resulting written text, instead of focusing on the spirit in which a decision is made.

So...your argument is that a non-secular upbringing makes you grow up quicker?

My argument is that in general, religious people focus on the spirit in which a decision is made, while secular / atheist people focus on the results of a decision.

Reasonably, there exists no, or next to none, "Dutch spirit". It is not something that is talked about in the Netherlands, the spirit is just not real you see, it is superstition. So in the USA you have these relatively lower education scores than in Europe in high school, but what happens is, people in the USA generally have a much higher emotional development, and then you see that some Americans really love maths, out of their own heart, and they become the best in the world at it, because of this emotional basis.

 

[Mohammad Nur Syamsu]

You should come and join in some of the threads where atheists argue that morals are subjective. It'd be a change to have someone tell us we're too quick to only believe in objective items.

Atheists use a different meaning for subjective, they certainly don't acknowledge the existence of the human spirit ofcourse.

They use subjective to mean like, everybody is materially different, or their positions are materially different, and therefore they will have different opinions. So the conclusion is then simply forced by chaotic variables, just as like facts are forced by evidence, it is not chosen.

 

[lewisnotmiller]

But that's just typical you see. You shift the focus on the results of a decision, the resulting written text, instead of focusing on the spirit in which a decision is made.

Instilling a passion for something is ignoring the spirit with which a decision is made? Holding a preconception is one thing, but holding it in the face of a post which indicates the exact opposite isn't a mark of well-grounded opinion. It's simply bias.

My argument is that in general, religious people focus on the spirit in which a decision is made, while secular / atheist people focus on the results of a decision.

Firstly, secular people can be theists. I have no idea how this fits into your preconception.
Secondly, atheists can be religious. I have no idea how THIS fits into your preconception.

But, for what it's worth, I'm the sort of atheist you're talking about...the non-religious secularist type. You're going to have to define spirit at some point for this to be meaningful, since it's quite possible you run with a literal and religious definition. That would be a fun conversation...but anyway, you define spirit for me, and we can discuss it.

Reasonably, there exists no, or next to none, "Dutch spirit". It is not something that is talked about in the Netherlands, the spirit is just not real you see, it is superstition.

And yet Australia, which is a secular country, has a concept of mateship that's well known and talked about to the point of jingoism.

So in the USA you have these relatively lower education scores than in Europe in high school, but what happens is, people in the USA generally have a much higher emotional development, and then you see that some Americans really love maths, out of their own heart, and they become the best in the world at it, because of this emotional basis.

Americans have a much higher emotional development? Watch an episode of Jerry Springer and get back to me on that. I think what you're likely to find in reality, is that people develop emotionally based on their lifestyle and upbringing, rather than their relative secularness or atheism, or even their birthplace. (Yeah, I know...secularness is not really a word...I'm just rolling with the spirit of the thing...)

 

[lewisnotmiller]

Atheists use a different meaning for subjective, they certainly don't acknowledge the existence of the human spirit ofcourse.

Speaking personally, I'd acknowledge the existence of the human spirit. I'd just choose not to run with a literal definition for it. This is, most likely, a subjective way of working, but...*shrugs*

They use subjective to mean like, everybody is materially different, or their positions are materially different, and therefore they will have different opinions. So the conclusion is then simply forced by chaotic variables, just as like facts are forced by evidence, it is not chosen.

You're obsessing over this concept that atheists don't believe in free will, aren't you?
Why not just start a topic asking people what their opinion on free will is, and see what responses you get? You might be surprised.

 

[Mohammad Nur Syamsu]

Instilling a passion for something is ignoring the spirit with which a decision is made? Holding a preconception is one thing, but holding it in the face of a post which indicates the exact opposite isn't a mark of well-grounded opinion. It's simply bias.

You know what I am talking about. The focus shifts from the spirit of the kids, towards producing high standard literary texts. So as when a kid writes, "I really like going to the mall", then you would be inclined to respond like, that's a rather bland writing style, here is some ways you can make it more sophisticated.

But, for what it's worth, I'm the sort of atheist you're talking about...the non-religious secularist type. You're going to have to define spirit at some point for this to be meaningful, since it's quite possible you run with a literal and religious definition. That would be a fun conversation...but anyway, you define spirit for me, and we can discuss it.

I already said, the spirit chooses.

And yet Australia, which is a secular country, has a concept of mateship that's well known and talked about to the point of jingoism.

Indeed, a sign of high emotional development.

Americans have a much higher emotional development? Watch an episode of Jerry Springer and get back to me on that. I think what you're likely to find in reality, is that people develop emotionally based on their lifestyle and upbringing, rather than their relative secularness or atheism, or even their birthplace. (Yeah, I know...secularness is not really a word...I'm just rolling with the spirit of the thing...)

....come on, you know the sort of thing I am talking about. To be controlling, calculating, instead of spontaneous, thoughtful, caring.

 

[Valjean]

How are atheists or secularists harming you, your kids or your country?

1) People with different beliefs or lifestyles, especially if they seem to be doing perfectly fine, threaten the beliefs and cultural norms of the majority community. They threaten individual ego-integrity and community cohesion. They threaten the mythology underlying the power and influence of the elite.
Ie: they make us uncomfortable, they threaten the status quo. They threaten the elites. They rouse the rabble.

2) If God becomes displeased with us there will be plagues, pestilence, famine and invasion.

So proper ideas and behavior must be enforced or the sky will fall.

 

[Valjean]

I'm not looking at a practical application at all, but if I were, it would be harmony and negotiation.

So Christians say pi = 3, and secularists insist it's 3.14..... Should we have one class teaching each plus a third teaching a 3.07 compromise?

 

[icehorse]

See....what this means in practise is that ALL subjectivity is surpressed or thrown out the window. Objectivity works based on evidence forcing to a conclusion, resulting in a fact. But the point of subjectivity is that you choose the conclusion yourself whether love or hate is real. You form an opinion, it matters very much the way you choose, how you identify what you like, how one "like" you have relates to all your other likes and dislikes, etc. etc.

That is the evil which secularism / atheism is inclined towards, that it only really validates objectivity.

Why would you say that? Many subjective beliefs have evidence. For example, I believe that the separation of church and state encourages invention and innovation. I have evidence to support that belief, but I couldn't prove it objectively. A beautiful sunrise or sunset takes my breath away - it's awesome, maybe even spiritual. But I don't have to give it supernatural explanations, I can just appreciate it. It's all subjective, it simply doesn't need supernatural explanations.