Koldo
Outstanding Member
What do you mean by 'bound'? And why should anyone care about objective morality?
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How Are Atheists or Secularists Harming You, Your Kids or Your Country?
- Thread starter Paradox22
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What do you mean by 'bound'? And why should anyone care about objective morality?
You might care if objective morality exists. Murder, for example, or child rape are universally considered to be wrong.
Koldo
Outstanding Member
Why is that?
Which doesn't mean it is necessarily correct to say that murder or child rape are ( objectively ) wrong.
How are they different? If you and I and everyone else agrees it is wrong then does that not mean they are objectively or universally wrong for everyone?
Koldo
Outstanding Member
This question makes me think we are not on the same page. So let's take a step back: Define what you meant so far by 'objective morality'.
Ok, and how do you know which verses in the Bible to pay attention to, and which to disregard? And I know you disregard some of the verses, because if you didn't, you'd be in jail right now...
I think that you had good morals BEFORE you read the Bible, and as you read the Bible you focus on the "good parts" and disregard the "bad parts". You knew good from bad before you started. That's my guess...
How do you know I'm not in jail? I'm Not saying morality comes from the bible exclusively, but it does come from God.
On what do you base morality?
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McBell
Unbound
Because they are good for no other reason than being good.
Those who are only good because they fear punishment and or hope for reward are not really good, they only pretend to be good because they fear punishment and or hope for reward.
McBell
Unbound
Which God?
The god of the Bible, who condones rape and slavery?
But rape and slavery are immoral...
Interesting pickle you have there.
McBell
Unbound
No they aren't.
They are merely weasel worded into acceptance.
McBell
Unbound
name one thing that not even one person disagrees with...?
I shant be holding my breath.
I guess you can join me in jail then.
That's exactly my point. Thanks again. Also, Objective morals are true for everyone, regardless of your agreement or acceptance of them.
I'd be interested to discuss how you are wrong but this probably isn't the thread?
There's actually a lot to cover on this, but I'll just post a couple of brief comments to start with;
1) I'm constantly surprised by people arguing that subjective or relative goodness is meaningless. A suggestion that you are incapable of judging me as 'gooder' (sic) than Hitler seems self-servicing and disingenuous.
2) Humans are entirely capable of moral judgements, and we ALL make these on a daily basis, including those who believe in an objective morality. In my opinion, these are relative moral judgements, but that doesn't make them all equal, nor mean that there are not commonalities which speak to our humanity.
3) If you're suggesting that the only reason you act morally is the Bible, then I wouldn't see you as a moral person at all. You'd merely be abjuring your moral responsibility to an external source which you believe is right. So if lining you up next to people of various other faiths, and belief structures, each of you could tell me your way is the right way, and your morals are the objectively derived ones. It's meaningless.
4) Assuming there is an objective morality, the transmission of this objective morality is entirely SUBJECTIVE. An objective morality which is subjectively transmitted is, for all practical purposes, a subjective morality.
Ok "comes from God" is a conversational "get out of jail free" card. How do you *specifically* come to know a concrete moral truth? Pick one, how about the Golden Rule. How did you specifically come to know that?
That's a little unfair. Everyone makes moral judgments, but I do appeal to a creator when making mine.
Christians call it the inner witness of the Holy Spirit, knowing that God is "present". This is difficult to put into words. Others may say consciousness or conscience or whatever which is similar, but different.
All this is not to say that morality, ethics and mores are not also learned from parents and others,etc, but still where do these sorts of concepts ultimately come from if not a supernatural source?
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To a non-believer like me, this just sounds like an extra-ordinary explanation for the very common, universal experience of human intuition and expertise.
In short, a misattribution.