How are Jews justified in creating the state of Israel?

[Rainbow Mage]

No this isn't a Jew bashing thread, it's a legitimate question. How are Jews justified in going into a land they haven't lived in for 2000 years and forcefully taking it away from the people who have lived there for a long time?

 

[Enoughie]

No this isn't a Jew bashing thread, it's a legitimate question. How are Jews justified in going into a land they haven't lived in for 2000 years and forcefully taking it away from the people who have lived there for a long time?

They're not. And that is not what their initial intention was.

The events that led to the war in which Jews took over Palestinian lands (in 1948) was more of a "self-fulfilling prophecy": Arabs began to spread rumors (in the 1920s) that Jews want to take over all the land and rule over Arabs. This led Arabs to start massacring Jews, which in turn led Jews to establish militias to protect themselves. Which then spiraled into an Arab-Jewish war in which Jews took over many Palestinian territories.

The initial intention was to legally buy swamp lands, and abandoned lands in Palestine, cultivate these lands, and bring Jewish immigrants from Europe to settle on these lands, and to eventually have a democracy with equal rights to Jews and Arabs.

At the time (1900s) there were about 500,000 Arabs in Palestine. You would think this is a large population, but in fact it was relatively small compared to what the land could sustain. The problem was that at the time the land could not sustain many more people. So the Zionist idea was to drain swamps, and introduce advanced agricultural techniques so the land could sustain many more people.

While the Arab population was 500,000 in Palestine, there were 9 million+ Jews in Europe (this was before the Holocaust). These Jews lived in Europe as refugees or third-class citizens for hundreds of years (I think the holocaust made it quite evident how poorly Jews were treated in Europe). but in any case, this treatment made them desire to return to the land from which they were forced out around 135AD.

_____________________
Natural Philosophy of Life - a simple, elegant, and powerful alternative to religious dogma

 

[Enoughie]

Interestingly enough. Jews and Palestinians are actually much the same people - ie. they are the same population that lived in Palestine 2000 years ago. While many Jews were expelled to Europe and elsewhere, others remained. The people that remained later adopted Christianity (because of the Roman Empire) and after adopted Islam (with the Islamic conquest).

DNA tests confirm that European Jews, Sephardic Jews, and Palestinian Arabs are virtually indistinguishable. While, for example, the DNA from European Jews and other Europeans is only 15% similar.

Which makes the Israeli-Palestinian conflict one of the most idiotic conflicts in history. Except, of course that the real reason for conflict is religious - between Jews and Arab-Muslims (not just Palestinians, but all Arab Muslims).

_____________________
Natural Philosophy of Life - a simple, elegant, and powerful alternative to religious dogma

 

[gnomon]

No this isn't a Jew bashing thread, it's a legitimate question. How are Jews justified in going into a land they haven't lived in for 2000 years and forcefully taking it away from the people who have lived there for a long time?

It's far more complex than that.

 

[Rainbow Mage]

They're not. And that is not what their initial intention was.

The events that led to the war in which Jews took over Palestinian lands (in 1948) was more of a "self-fulfilling prophecy": Arabs began to spread rumors (in the 1920s) that Jews want to take over all the land and rule over Arabs. This led Arabs to start massacring Jews, which in turn led Jews to establish militias to protect themselves. Which then spiraled into an Arab-Jewish war in which Jews took over many Palestinian territories.

The initial intention was to legally buy swamp lands, and abandoned lands in Palestine, cultivate these lands, and bring Jewish immigrants from Europe to settle on these lands, and to eventually have a democracy with equal rights to Jews and Arabs.

At the time (1900s) there were about 500,000 Arabs in Palestine. You would think this is a large population, but in fact it was relatively small compared to what the land could sustain. The problem was that at the time the land could not sustain many more people. So the Zionist idea was to drain swamps, and introduce advanced agricultural techniques so the land could sustain many more people.

While the Arab population was 500,000 in Palestine, there were 9 million+ Jews in Europe (this was before the Holocaust). These Jews lived in Europe as refugees or third-class citizens for hundreds of years (I think the holocaust made it quite evident how poorly Jews were treated in Europe). but in any case, this treatment made them desire to return to the land from which they were forced out around 135AD.

_____________________
Natural Philosophy of Life - a simple, elegant, and powerful alternative to religious dogma

The holocaust is no excuse to start a Zionist state, which most Rabbis at the time condemned outrightly. Also, no you're romanticizing what happened a bit. This all turned really ugly when the Jews decided they wanted Jerusalem back and fought until they actually seized the Dome of the Rock.

 

[Rainbow Mage]

Interestingly enough. Jews and Palestinians are actually much the same people - ie. they are the same population that lived in Palestine 2000 years ago. While many Jews were expelled to Europe and elsewhere, others remained. The people that remained later adopted Christianity (because of the Roman Empire) and after adopted Islam (with the Islamic conquest).

DNA tests confirm that European Jews, Sephardic Jews, and Palestinian Arabs are virtually indistinguishable. While, for example, the DNA from European Jews and other Europeans is only 15% similar

_____________________
Natural Philosophy of Life - a simple, elegant, and powerful alternative to religious dogma

And this justifies it how?

 

[Rainbow Mage]

It's far more complex than that.

Sure, maybe you can explain how modern day genocide is far more complex then it actually is

 

[Enoughie]

The holocaust is no excuse to start a Zionist state,

The holocaust has no relation to the conflict whatsoever. At the time of WWI, after the fall of the Ottoman Empire, there were two entities whose territorial claims to land in the Middle East where considered by the British (who had control over the Middle East): Zionists, and the Sharif Hussein of Mecca.

The Sharif was supposed to receive most of the territories (including Iraq, Syria, Jordan, etc.), while the Zionists were supposed to receive Palestine.

This was established through the Balfour Declaration of 1917 (long before the holocaust):

"His Majesty's government view with favour the establishment in Palestine of a national home for the Jewish people, and will use their best endeavours to facilitate the achievement of this object, it being clearly understood that nothing shall be done which may prejudice the civil and religious rights of existing non-Jewish communities in Palestine, or the rights and political status enjoyed by Jews in any other country."

which most Rabbis at the time condemned outrightly.

I don't see how what Rabbis think has anything to do with the establishment of the state of Israel. Israel was established as a secular state by mostly secular Zionist Jews.

Also, no you're romanticizing what happened a bit. This all turned really ugly when the Jews decided they wanted Jerusalem back and fought until they actually seized the Dome of the Rock.

You're talking here already about what happened once the situation started to spiral out of control, and both Jews and Palestinians started to fight over lands. But this still has nothing to do with the fact that Zionists had absolutely no desire to conquer lands. They were buying them legally all the way until war broke out in 1947.

_____________________
Natural Philosophy of Life - a simple, elegant, and powerful alternative to religious dogma

 

[gnomon]

Sure, maybe you can explain how modern day genocide is far more complex then it actually is

And some question why this forum is in a downturn at the moment.

Modern day genocide?

That's too rich.

 

[Rainbow Mage]

I don't see how what Rabbis think has anything to do with the establishment of the state of Israel. Israel was established as a secular state by mostly secular Zionist Jews.

Then why do they justify having it by saying god gave it to them, if it's a secular state by secular Jews? Why do they wrangle support from the Christians by saying it's a fufillment of prophecy? They don't even believe in prophecy.

 

[Rainbow Mage]

And some question why this forum is in a downturn at the moment.

Modern day genocide?

That's too rich.

What would you call it then? The Palestinians have been baracaded inside of their homes and not allowed to leave unless they're leaving the country. They are being starved to death and forced to survive on the most meager resources.

 

[Rainbow Mage]

Wonder why people don't give Tibet the support in their struggle against China that they give Israel in their struggle against the Gaza Strip? Oh wait a minute, because just like China, the US government is backing the oppressor, and not the oppressed.

 

[Flankerl]

No this isn't a Jew bashing thread, it's a legitimate question. How are Jews justified in going into a land they haven't lived in for 2000 years and forcefully taking it away from the people who have lived there for a long time?

Why would you ask a question when you believe that you already have the right answer?

 

[Rainbow Mage]

Why would you ask a question when you believe that you already have the right answer?

To get other people's insights and explinations. Surely something like this is deserving of an explination?

 

[Enoughie]

Then why do they justify having it by saying god gave it to them, if it's a secular state by secular Jews? Why do they wrangle support from the Christians by saying it's a fufillment of prophecy? They don't even believe in prophecy.

The problem is that today Israelis are about just as ignorant about their own history as Americans are about theirs.

That's why many Christians and conservatives in America say that America is a Christian nation (while this is fundamentally not true - the U.S. Constitution is distinctively secular!)

Religious Jews in Israel (especially those who live in the illegal settlements), who are a relative minority in Israeli, view everything in religious terms. And that how they justify their own actions, and that's how they relate to Evangelical Christians in American.

But this has nothing to do with the history of the Israeli-Arab conflict.

The first Prime Minister of Israel famously said: we have no ownership over the past in this land [Israel], only over the future.

So while he certainly recognized that Jews had sovereignty over this land some 2000 years ago, he understood that this does not give Jews the right to take land from Arabs. They only have "ownership over the future" - to build on new grounds.

Of course, this idyllic worldview had to be revised as it became clear that peaceful coexistence is no longer possible (around the 1940s). Yet, right up to the war in 1948, Jews were still legally acquiring lands, and this was proven by an independent British commission (the Peel Commission in 1938) that was investigating (the false) Arab claims of Jews stealing land from Arabs.

_____________________
Natural Philosophy of Life - a simple, elegant, and powerful alternative to religious dogma

 

[Enoughie]

Wonder why people don't give Tibet the support in their struggle against China that they give Israel in their struggle against the Gaza Strip? Oh wait a minute, because just like China, the US government is backing the oppressor, and not the oppressed.

It seems to me that your understanding of these conflicts is based more on a simplistic understanding that is based on ignorance, and not on actual knowledge of the facts on the ground.
_____________________
Natural Philosophy of Life - a simple, elegant, and powerful alternative to religious dogma

 

[Enoughie]

What would you call it then? The Palestinians have been baracaded inside of their homes and not allowed to leave unless they're leaving the country. They are being starved to death and forced to survive on the most meager resources.

While I agree that the situation is Gaza is terrible, if you think that life in Gaza can be compared to a genocide, then how would you rate life in about a 100 or so countries and territories where life standards are much worse (for example, Egypt, Iran, Turkey, Afghanistan, etc.)?!

Is life in Egypt worse than a "modern day genocide"? That's an interesting worldview you have there. As always, not based on facts, but on ignorance.

_____________________
Natural Philosophy of Life - a simple, elegant, and powerful alternative to religious dogma

 

[idea]

Israel became an independent state after Israel was recognised by the UN, so if you don't like it, blame the UN - all the nations in the UN, and everyone who voted to make Israel a state...

 

[Rainbow Mage]

Israel became an independent state after Israel was recognised by the UN, so if you don't like it, blame the UN - all the nations in the UN, and everyone who voted to make Israel a state...

All the nations on the UN do not support Israel.

 

[Caladan]

No this isn't a Jew bashing thread, it's a legitimate question. How are Jews justified in going into a land they haven't lived in for 2000 years and forcefully taking it away from the people who have lived there for a long time?

My grandmother's family has lived in Israel for 7 generations. these people, together with other pioneers paid money to buy a land in what is now central Israel, this land was filled with swamps, they dried those swamps, dealt with the problems of drying these swamps such as malaria and have created an agricultural town, it is now a city with a population which stands at over 200,000.
They had good relations with the Arabs, to the point that Arabs from the surrounding villages would warn my grandmother's father when other Arabs organized raids on the town.
Tell me, how are you justified in living in Oregon?
About the same time my family bought unused swamp land with malaria, and erected a town in it, European pioneers began the history of settling Oregon, which at the time was originally inhabited by Native American tribes, including the Bannock, Chasta, Chinook, Kalapuya, Klamath, Molalla, Nez Perce, Takelma, and Umpqua.