How are Jews justified in creating the state of Israel?

[Rainbow Mage]

Tell me, how are you justified in living in Oregon?
About the same time my family bought unused swamp land with malaria, and erected a town in it, European pioneers began the history of settling Oregon, originally inhabited by Native American tribes, including the Bannock, Chasta, Chinook, Kalapuya, Klamath, Molalla, Nez Perce, Takelma, and Umpqua.

Yeah I suppose you have a point there. Touche

 

[Caladan]

All the nations on the UN do not support Israel.

Oh dear.
do you know how the UN works Senedjem?
The Partition of the land between Jews and Arabs was voted on in the UN. the majority of the countries in the UN voted for the plan, which meant the creation of a modern state of Israel was voted FOR by the UN.
The Arab states did not respect the decision of the UN and invaded Israel, this resulted in the 1948 war, which in Israeli history is referred to as the War of Independence, in which armies from Egypt, Syria, Jordan, Lebanon, Iraq, Saudi Arabia, Yemen, Sudan and organizations such as the Muslim Brotherhood invaded Israel, the result of the war was more territorial gains by Israel.
Had the Arab states agreed to the approved UN partition plan, the Arabs in Palestine would have a legal state, and a 'Jewish state', with in fact an Arab majority, which could mean that the state would not remain Jewish for long.
politics... funny how it turns out.

 

[free spirit]

No this isn't a Jew bashing thread, it's a legitimate question. How are Jews justified in going into a land they haven't lived in for 2000 years and forcefully taking it away from the people who have lived there for a long time?

you are correct there is no natural justice in creating the Jewish state of Israel.
To create the state of Israel is a political decision, to make it a Jewish state is a religious decision. therefore the war will go on and on and on.

God did not give that land to the Jews, the following is part of an article that I wrote in my book "the way God told it" explains.

SPIRITUAL JEWS AND FLESHLY JEWS



Ask yourself also why, after four thousand years, the “Jews” are still fighting for a piece of real estate to call their own? Despite the overwhelming evidence to the contrary, the fundamentalist Jews and Christians alike passionately believe that God gave that land to the Jews: they of all people need to consider that more than four thousand years have passed since the promise was made. In view of that length of time, they should wisely come to one of these three simple conclusions: first, that God never made such a promise; second, that God is so weak that he cannot keep His promise: third, that God never meant the promise to be a piece of real estate. In the following lines there are some compelling reasons to convince those who are spiritually wise to consider that the third option is the correct one.
Firstly, because if God so wished, He could have given that land to the Jews by simply prospering His people on that land, without resorting to a conquering armed campaign of death and destruction. Secondly, God-fearing people know that death and destruction are the Devil’s tools of trade. Therefore it is obvious that God never meant the “Promised Land” to be a piece of real estate which generations of Jews and non-Jews are still fighting over. Besides, all Holy Spirit filled people have been made aware in the spirit that the real “Promised Land” is located in the heart of each individual and has to be conquered by our personal spiritual battles of repentance. Yes, it is true that the spiritual conquest of our hearts should reflect the brutality of the flesh, for our spiritual struggle of repentance requires that no quarter be given, for all evil occupying the believer’s heart has to die. For it is written in 1Peter 1:16: “you shall be Holy, for I am Holy.”
Another clear illustration of God’s spiritual meaning of the “Promised Land” is found in God’s dealing with Israel, for we know from the Old Testament that every time Israel sinned God caused them to be removed from the Promised Land, and when they repented God brought them back into the Promised Land. So we need to understand from these two clearly illustrated consequences, deriving from their good and bad behaviour, what God is telling us. That is, that sin causes us to move out from the grace of God,and repentance brings us back into the grace of God. In other words we can sincerely and confidently say: remain in the grace of God and we are dwelling in the “Promised Land.” Yes… even if we live on the inhabitable Continent of Antarctica.
Those jews and Christians that believe the promised land is a piece of real estate makes God very little indeed.

 

[Enoughie]

you are correct there is no natural justice in creating the Jewish state of Israel.
To create the state of Israel is a political decision, to make it a Jewish state is a religious decision. therefore the war will go on and on and on.

God did not give that land to the Jews, the following is part of an article that I wrote in my book "the way God told it" explains.

SPIRITUAL JEWS AND FLESHLY JEWS



Ask yourself also why, after four thousand years, the “Jews” are still fighting for a piece of real estate to call their own? Despite the overwhelming evidence to the contrary, the fundamentalist Jews and Christians alike passionately believe that God gave that land to the Jews: they of all people need to consider that more than four thousand years have passed since the promise was made. In view of that length of time, they should wisely come to one of these three simple conclusions: first, that God never made such a promise; second, that God is so weak that he cannot keep His promise: third, that God never meant the promise to be a piece of real estate. In the following lines there are some compelling reasons to convince those who are spiritually wise to consider that the third option is the correct one.
Firstly, because if God so wished, He could have given that land to the Jews by simply prospering His people on that land, without resorting to a conquering armed campaign of death and destruction. Secondly, God-fearing people know that death and destruction are the Devil’s tools of trade. Therefore it is obvious that God never meant the “Promised Land” to be a piece of real estate which generations of Jews and non-Jews are still fighting over. Besides, all Holy Spirit filled people have been made aware in the spirit that the real “Promised Land” is located in the heart of each individual and has to be conquered by our personal spiritual battles of repentance. Yes, it is true that the spiritual conquest of our hearts should reflect the brutality of the flesh, for our spiritual struggle of repentance requires that no quarter be given, for all evil occupying the believer’s heart has to die. For it is written in 1Peter 1:16: “you shall be Holy, for I am Holy.”
Another clear illustration of God’s spiritual meaning of the “Promised Land” is found in God’s dealing with Israel, for we know from the Old Testament that every time Israel sinned God caused them to be removed from the Promised Land, and when they repented God brought them back into the Promised Land. So we need to understand from these two clearly illustrated consequences, deriving from their good and bad behaviour, what God is telling us. That is, that sincauses us to move out from the grace of God,and repentancebrings us back into the grace of God. In other words we can sincerely and confidently say: remain in the grace of God and we are dwelling in the “Promised Land.” Yes… even if we live on the inhabitable Continent of Antarctica.
Those jews and Christians that believe the promised land is a piece of real estate makes God to be very little indeed.

This would all make sense, except for the little fact that the land being "promised to Jews" had very little to do with the reason why Jews in the 19th century sought a homeland of their own.

It had much more to do with the facts of persecution in Europe and fear for their lives (which proved to be a very justified fear).

Using your analogy would mean that any nation that seeks to have a homeland (whether it is Palestinians, Tibetans, Kurds, or Jews) should not worry about the poor physical conditions and "real estate" in which their people live in reality, but rather seek "inner peace" in their heart and have a homeland in their imaginary world.

The reason why Israel still has to fight for its existence is purely geopolitical. What you have in the Middle East is vestiges of Islamic Imperialism (that, incidentally also seek to have control over "real estate"), that for over 1300 years had control over territories, and now they feel "disrespect" because someone else lays claims to the same land they once had. That's not a simple situation, to say the least.

If Jews were to "change their perspective," in whichever way you see fit, that would still not change the geopolitics in the Middle East one bit.

_____________________
Natural Philosophy of Life - a simple, elegant, and powerful alternative to religious dogma

 

[Caladan]

you are correct there is no natural justice in creating the Jewish state of Israel.
To create the state of Israel is a political decision, to make it a Jewish state is a religious decision. therefore the war will go on and on and on.

God did not give that land to the Jews, the following is part of an article that I wrote in my book "the way God told it" explains.

SPIRITUAL JEWS AND FLESHLY JEWS



Ask yourself also why, after four thousand years, the “Jews” are still fighting for a piece of real estate to call their own? Despite the overwhelming evidence to the contrary, the fundamentalist Jews and Christians alike passionately believe that God gave that land to the Jews: they of all people need to consider that more than four thousand years have passed since the promise was made. In view of that length of time, they should wisely come to one of these three simple conclusions: first, that God never made such a promise; second, that God is so weak that he cannot keep His promise: third, that God never meant the promise to be a piece of real estate. In the following lines there are some compelling reasons to convince those who are spiritually wise to consider that the third option is the correct one.
Firstly, because if God so wished, He could have given that land to the Jews by simply prospering His people on that land, without resorting to a conquering armed campaign of death and destruction. Secondly, God-fearing people know that death and destruction are the Devil’s tools of trade. Therefore it is obvious that God never meant the “Promised Land” to be a piece of real estate which generations of Jews and non-Jews are still fighting over. Besides, all Holy Spirit filled people have been made aware in the spirit that the real “Promised Land” is located in the heart of each individual and has to be conquered by our personal spiritual battles of repentance. Yes, it is true that the spiritual conquest of our hearts should reflect the brutality of the flesh, for our spiritual struggle of repentance requires that no quarter be given, for all evil occupying the believer’s heart has to die. For it is written in 1Peter 1:16: “you shall be Holy, for I am Holy.”
Another clear illustration of God’s spiritual meaning of the “Promised Land” is found in God’s dealing with Israel, for we know from the Old Testament that every time Israel sinned God caused them to be removed from the Promised Land, and when they repented God brought them back into the Promised Land. So we need to understand from these two clearly illustrated consequences, deriving from their good and bad behaviour, what God is telling us. That is, that sin causes us to move out from the grace of God,and repentance brings us back into the grace of God. In other words we can sincerely and confidently say: remain in the grace of God and we are dwelling in the “Promised Land.” Yes… even if we live on the inhabitable Continent of Antarctica.
Those jews and Christians that believe the promised land is a piece of real estate makes God very little indeed.

More empty ideology from people who live on aboriginal land.
Modern Jews do not believe God gave them modern Israel. their families have either arrived during the dramatic events in Europe in the first half of the previous century or during the century before that, or have always lived in the region and have arrived to Israel for various regional political events, ranging from the expulsion of Jews from Arab lands, to the Zionist enterprise, etc.
Modern Israel is not the work of a mysterious divine force behind world events. it is the achievement of determination which spans the European continent and beyond, where political Jews have worked and struggled to achieve a recognition to the plea of the Jews of Europe, who after suffering from centuries of persecution on religious basis in the continent, have now had to suffer discrimination and persecution on national and racial basis, it was also created by hard working pioneers who bought, cleared and worked swamp land in many cases.

 

[free spirit]

This would all make sense, except for the little fact that the land being "promised to Jews" had very little to do with the reason why Jews in the 19th century sought a homeland of their own.

It had much more to do with the facts of persecution in Europe and fear for their lives (which proved to be a very justified fear).

Using your analogy would mean that any nation that seeks to have a homeland (whether it is Palestinians, Tibetans, Kurds, or Jews) should not worry about the poor physical conditions and "real estate" in which their people live in reality, but rather seek "inner peace" in their heart and have a homeland in their imaginary world.

The reason why Israel still has to fight for its existence is purely geopolitical. What you have in the Middle East is vestiges of Islamic Imperialism (that, incidentally also seek to have control over "real estate"), that for over 1300 years had control over territories, and now they feel "disrespect" because someone else lays claims to the same land they once had. That's not a simple situation, to say the least.

If Jews were to "change their perspective," in whichever way you see fit, that would still not change the geopolitics in the Middle East one bit.

_____________________
Natural Philosophy of Life - a simple, elegant, and powerful alternative to religious dogma

More than 60 years have past and there is no peace for the Jews. Why? It is because they are out of the will of God.

 

[Caladan]

More than 60 years have past and there is no peace for the Jews. Why? It is because they are out of the will of God.

The Jews of Israel live in more prosperity and security than the vast majority of the people of the world.
It is no surprise that the last surveys of respected survey, statistic and business organizations have listed Israel in the top ten nations on the most satisfying countries to live in 2010. Israel ranked the top 10 together with nations such as Sweden and Canada, and seems to be the happiest nation in Asia.
Central Israel has been terror free for years. the vast majority of the citizens live a completely normal life, including the most basic security.

 

[free spirit]

More empty ideology from people who live on aboriginal land.
Modern Jews do not believe God gave them modern Israel. their families have either arrived during the dramatic events in Europe in the first half of the previous century or during the century before that, or have always lived in the region and have arrived to Israel for various regional political events, ranging from the expulsion of Jews from Arab lands, to the Zionist enterprise, etc.
Modern Israel is not the work of a mysterious divine force behind world events. it is the achievement of determination which spans the European continent and beyond, where political Jews have worked and struggled to achieve a recognition to the plea of the Jews of Europe, who after suffering from centuries of persecution on religious basis in the continent, have now had to suffer discrimination and persecution on national and racial basis, it was also created by hard working pioneers who bought, cleared and worked swamp land in many cases.

Judaism is a religion, and like many other religions has suffered persecutions, mostly because they did not comform to the custom of those societies; today Israel is doing the same to the Arabs living in Israel. hypocricy is rife expecially in Israel.

 

[Enoughie]

Judaism is a religion, and like many other religions has suffered persecutions, mostly because they did not comform to the custom of those societies; today Israel is doing the same to the Arabs living in Israel. hypocricy is rife expecially in Israel.

Judaism is not just a religion, it is also a nationality. Even those Jews who "conformed" to the customs of societies in Europe were still treated as second-class citizens.

Arabs in Israel are equal before the law, and have full political rights - the same cannot be said about [almost] any Arab or Muslim country in the world. So yes hypocrisy is rife, especially toward Israel.

_____________________
Natural Philosophy of Life - a simple, elegant, and powerful alternative to religious dogma

 

[Caladan]

Judaism is a religion, and like many other religions has suffered persecutions, mostly because they did not comform to the custom of those societies; today Israel is doing the same to the Arabs living in Israel. hypocricy is rife expecially in Israel.

Do your research. Judaism is a religion. but Jews are a society, an ethnic group, and a historical nation.
furthermore, don't you find it a bit ironic and hypocritical to pin down the persecution of Jews on the Jews because they have not adopted the costume of these societies, while blaming the Jews of persecuting others on the same ground?
furthermore, it would enlighten you to know, that the Jews of Germany have considered themselves Germans first, and Jews later. over 100,000 Jews served in the German army during WWI, that is out of a total population of 550,000 German Jews, meaning that a fifth of all German Jews have fought for their country- Germany. 80% of them served on front-line duties. over 30,000 Jews were awarded decorations for the bravery, sacrifice and dedication they have made for Germany.
that makes German Jews the ethnicity from which the highest percentage of Germans have fought in World War I, more than any other ethnic, religious or political group in Germany. so much for the myth of the Aryan fatherland.
It was a Jewish lieutenant, Hugo Gutmann, who awarded the Iron Cross, First Class, to a 29-year-old corporal named Adolf Hitler. After Hitler came to power, Gutmann was incarcerated by the Gestapo.
Out of the Jewish population who did not escape Germany after the rise of Nazism, 90% were killed. I guess they did not assimilate well enough, being that they evidently had such a low statistics of patriotism in WWI for the fatherland.

 

[Enoughie]

More than 60 years have past and there is no peace for the Jews. Why? It is because they are out of the will of God.

Right. That must be it. There is no peace because the Jews upset the Gods.

Have you ever thought of the idea that it is because Israel is surrounded by authoritarian regimes that derive their stability from uniting their oppressed people against Israel?

That's the only thing that still keeps the Ayatollahs in place in Iran (and by extension strengthens Hamas and Hizballah).

There is no peace because it is against the interests of Arab and Islamic regimes. It's that simple.

_____________________
Natural Philosophy of Life - a simple, elegant, and powerful alternative to religious dogma

 

[Autodidact]

No this isn't a Jew bashing thread, it's a legitimate question. How are Jews justified in going into a land they haven't lived in for 2000 years and forcefully taking it away from the people who have lived there for a long time?

It's a legitimate question--I actually even agree with you, but that's not in fact what happened. Your history isn't quite right.

 

[Autodidact]

Then why do they justify having it by saying god gave it to them, if it's a secular state by secular Jews? Why do they wrangle support from the Christians by saying it's a fufillment of prophecy? They don't even believe in prophecy.

Jews are a complex and multi-faceted group. It's hard to say "they" about Jews. In any case, modern Zionism for the most part was a secular movement. Actually, most Orthodox views consider modern Zionism a violation of G-d's commandment.

 

[free spirit]

More empty ideology from people who live on aboriginal land.
Modern Jews do not believe God gave them modern Israel. their families have either arrived during the dramatic events in Europe in the first half of the previous century or during the century before that, or have always lived in the region and have arrived to Israel for various regional political events, ranging from the expulsion of Jews from Arab lands, to the Zionist enterprise, etc.
Modern Israel is not the work of a mysterious divine force behind world events. it is the achievement of determination which spans the European continent and beyond, where political Jews have worked and struggled to achieve a recognition to the plea of the Jews of Europe, who after suffering from centuries of persecution on religious basis in the continent, have now had to suffer discrimination and persecution on national and racial basis, it was also created by hard working pioneers who bought, cleared and worked swamp land in many cases.

You do not believe that God has given the Jews that land: So why are the Jews there? It would have been more acceptable if the UN had given the Jews one state that was part of USA, they have over 50 states they would have not missed one of them. Plus they would have been placed among friends, so why the jews did not ask for that.
Sorry: but I see the Jews notion of the missinterpreted will of God.
To dispossess the Palestinians was an act laking natural justice and to fix a wrong with a wrong is beyond comprehension. You say the jews have peace! enjoy while you have it.

 

[Caladan]

Jews are a complex and multi-faceted group. It's hard to say "they" about Jews. In any case, modern Zionism for the most part was a secular movement. Actually, most Orthodox views consider modern Zionism a violation of G-d's commandment.

True on both accounts. Zionism has little to do with the failed rebellion against the Romans almost 2000 years ago, and the mass expulsion that followed. Zionism was a pragmatic political movement of the social reality in the 19th and 20th century in Europe. it did not deal with divine claims to the land of Israel, it was inspired and moved by events such as the famous Dreyfus affair in which a French Jewish artillery Captain was falsely accused of spying for Germany and was made to represent the nature of all Jews in France by various news papers.
Eventually, all the accusations against Alfred Dreyfus were demonstrated to be baseless. Dreyfus was exonerated and reinstated as a major in the French Army in 1906. He later served during the whole of World War I, ending his service with the rank of Lieutenant-Colonel.
as for the complexity and multi-faceted nature of Jewish society around the world. look no further than the modern Jews who are relevant to this thread. the Israeli political map, the Israeli soldiers, etc.
the Israeli army, unlike the American for example, is built on mandatory service, in large, this means that young Israelis of all backgrounds, political ideas, secular or religious will serve side by side. in the Israeli army, on your spare time you may find yourself reading anything from Noam Chomsky (who is one of the most successful critics of Israeli policies) to Sexual Tantra, any decent reading material that you or the other guys bring. the Israeli military, whether it operates in controversial areas such as the Gaza strip or the West bank is made of soldiers who may have strong leanings to the political left, or to the right. with soldiers who would view the whole situation from radically different POV than some of their other comrades.
the Israeli political landscape is a diverse one. with people who vote for classical left parties finding it not contradictory to serve in combat units for various reasons.

Going back to the Dreyfus affair, the factions around his trial remained in place for decades afterward. The far right remained a potent force, as did the moderate liberals. The liberal victory played an important role in pushing the far right to the fringes of French politics. It also prompted legislation such as a 1905 law separating church and state. The coalition of partisan anti-Dreyfusards remained together, but turned to other causes. Groups such as Maurras's Action Française, formed during the affair, endured for decades.
The Vichy Regime was composed to some extent of old anti-Dreyfusards and their descendants. The Vichy Regime would later close its eyes to the arrest of Dreyfus's granddaughter, Madeleine Levy, by the Gestapo. Madame Levy was imprisoned in Camp Drancy on November 3, 1943, and on November 20 of the same year she was deported to Auschwitz, where she was murdered. Dreyfus' two nephews also fought as officers in the French artillery, both did not survive the first world war. I suppose that French men of Jewish heritage, serving as the finest soldiers of the French military and dying for their country, while other Non-Jewish French collaborate with the invaders and hand over the family of those who fought against the same invader for France in the previous war, is another fine lesson in loyalty, patriotism, assimilation.. and who is preserving a nation's costumes and lives by them.

 

[Caladan]

You do not believe that God has given the Jews that land: So why are the Jews there?

It would actually help your confusion if you took the time to read the posts which generously answer your questions in this thread.

 

[free spirit]

Right. That must be it. There is no peace because the Jews upset the Gods.
No; there is no peace because the Jews think they are doing the will of God.

Have you ever thought of the idea that it is because Israel is surrounded by authoritarian regimes that derive their stability from uniting their oppressed people against Israel?
No; the Palestinians have been robed of their land, so they are defending their rights.

That's the only thing that still keeps the Ayatollahs in place in Iran (and by extension strengthens Hamas and Hizballah).
There is no peace because it is against the interests of Arab and Islamic regimes. It's that simple.
You are ignorant of the brotherhood of Islam, terrorism will multiply 1000 times when the Jews will destroy the 1300 years old mosque of the rock and rebuild their temple on its place. it's that simple.

_____________________
Natural Philosophy of Life - a simple, elegant, and powerful alternative to religious dogma

I believe that if Israel become a political state by abandoning their religious divide it will bring real peace to the area.

 

[Rakhel]

Last I heard, the idea that the state of Israel will destroy the mosque is nothing more than a rumor created by those who wish to instill fear in the Palestinians. In other words, it is nothing more than a lie.

 

[free spirit]

It would actually help your confusion if you took the time to read the posts which generously answer your questions in this thread.

Your answer are political, the problem is spiritual, anless you address that your answers are useless. You must see that religion only is the reason for the occupation of Palestine.
So I like to confuse you some more.

Yet another convincing spiritual explanation of entering “into the Promised Land,” or “into His rest,” or “into the grace of God,” is found in Hebrews chapter four because this chapter is connecting the entering into the “Promised Land” by Joshua with the entering “into God’s day of rest.” The connection is irrefutable for we read in Hebrews 4:1 and 6-11 and 16: “Therefore, let us fear lest, while a promise remains of entering His rest, any one of you should seem to have come short of it.” And in verse 6 we read: Since therefore it remains for some to enter it, and those who formerly had good news preached to them failed to enter because of disobedience. He again fixed a certain day, ‘Today,’ saying through David after so long a time just as has been said before, Today if you hear His voice, do not harden your hearts. For if Joshua had given them rest, He would not have spoken of another day after that. There remains therefore a Sabbath rest for the people of God. For the one who has entered His rest has himself also rested from his works, as God did from His. Let us therefore be diligent to enter that rest, lest anyone fall through following the same example of disobedience.” In verse 16 again we read: “Let us therefore draw near with confidence to the Throne of Grace, that we may receive mercy and may find grace to help in time of need.” As you can see, all these things such as the promised land, the entering of Joshua, the day of rest, and the grace of God are all metaphorically connected with the entering and dwelling in the “Promised Land.” In other words we ought to conquer our evil earthly hearts with the arduous personal battles of repentance, in order to make God’s grace dwell in each one of us. Yes it is true that with God’s grace dwelling in our hearts we have conquered and are dwelling in the promised land.

 

[Enoughie]

Right. That must be it. There is no peace because the Jews upset the Gods.
No; there is no peace because the Jews think they are doing the will of God.

The vast majority of Jews in Israel is secular. Which means that they care very little about doing the will of the Gods.

Have you ever thought of the idea that it is because Israel is surrounded by authoritarian regimes that derive their stability from uniting their oppressed people against Israel?
No; the Palestinians have been robed of their land, so they are defending their rights.

Right. Only Palestinians are fighting Israel. That's why Hizballah attacked Israel from Lebanon (2006), and before that Syria and Egypt (1973) attacked Israel, and before that Syria, Egypt, and Jordan (1967) attacked Israel, and before that Syria, Lebanon, Jordan, Egypt, Iraq, and the "Arab armies" of Haj Amin al-Husseini (1948), and a few more instances in between.

What about the "rights" of about a million Jews who were ethnically cleansed from their lands throughout the Middle East (from Morocco to Iraq) around the creation of Israel? They don't have rights?

You seem to be utterly ignorant about the dynamics of the conflict in the Middle East. The conflict started around the 1920s, when the Mufti of Jerusalem Haj Amin al-Husseini and his aids started to spread false rumors that Jews are trying to take over and rule over the Arabs. These false rumors had absolutely no basis in reality (which was demonstrated in the Peel Commission report in 1938), but unfortunately this spiraled into a Jewish-Palestinian conflict, and became a self-fulfilling prophecy.

That's the only thing that still keeps the Ayatollahs in place in Iran (and by extension strengthens Hamas and Hizballah).
There is no peace because it is against the interests of Arab and Islamic regimes. It's that simple.
You are ignorant of the brotherhood of Islam, terrorism will multiply 1000 times when the Jews will destroy the 1300 years old mosque of the rock and rebuild their temple on its place. it's that simple..

Right. You know what would be even worse? If the French decide to take over America. Because that would lead to WW3. What you're suggesting is just about as likely to happen.

Your comments show such utter ignorance of the conflict in the Middle East that I'm not surprised that its still raging on.

_____________________
Natural Philosophy of Life - a simple, elegant, and powerful alternative to religious dogma