How are Jews justified in creating the state of Israel?

[kai]

No this isn't a Jew bashing thread, it's a legitimate question. How are Jews justified in going into a land they haven't lived in for 2000 years and forcefully taking it away from the people who have lived there for a long time?

There not! and is that what you think happened?


try this for starters.

Israel - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[LuisDantas]

Hey, Autodidact, that is a fine job of summarizing the history that you have just done. Congrats and frubal!

 

[Autodidact]

Another thing which is really weird. If you really, seriously, want to understand this conflict, it is rooted in World War I. After WW I, the victorious powers divvied up what they had won, and the Middle East got carved up in an argument between France and Britain that had everything to do with the recent war and the jostling between those countries, and very little to do with the people who lived there. So you could say, in a way, to this day we are fighting the mess created when Britain tried to **** France off almost a hundred years ago. Weird, eh?

 

[kai]

simplified thumbnail:

Well, roughly, the Jews didn't conquer it. Britain did. Jews immigrated there, legally, and were contributing to positive progress, not only in agriculture, but in instituting democratic institutions and even universities. Arabs rioted over the number of Jews that Britain was allowing in. I don't think this is controversial, and (I think) Arabs and anti-Zionists would agree that Arabs started the violence with these riots. All of this increased as Jews poured in to escape German persecution during the 30's. Palestinian Arabs revolted against the British, but because of Jewish immigration. The British throttled the revolt brutally. In response to the revolt, the British limited Jewish immigration, just when Hitler's holocaust made it more necessary for more Jews to immigrate, and increasing the number of Jewish victims of the holocaust.

When the U.N. committee came in to investigate and make recommendations, the Jews cooperated; the Arabs boycotted. The U.N. recommended two states be created; one Arab and one Jewish. (If this sounds familiar, this is the same solution being discussed today. That's right, had the Arabs accepted the U.N. recommendation, the last 60 years of war could have been avoided, and the Palestinians would have a state today.) Unfortunately, the Arabs declared that if there was any Jewish state, however small, they would fight against it, and they did, attacking immediately. Palestinian Arabs fled to neighboring states by the tens of thousands, where they are still refugees today. Basically--short version--Israel won and established its borders. Jews poured in from all over the world.

Here is a map of the proposed U.N. partition that the Arabs rejected:

Then there was the Suez crisis, leading to the Sinai war an interesting side-light in the 50's. It would be fair to say that Israel attacked Egypt, in response to Egypt nationalizing the Suez canal. Israel and its allies won, but gave the canal and most of the territory back in response to U.S. and Soviet pressure.

Arab countries have attacked Israel twice since then. Both times Israel fought back and won, increasing Israeli territory, which really just makes things worse and more complicated.

After that it just gets messier and more complicated every decade.

The relationship between Jordan and the Palestinians is also complicated and important.

Also the Israeli settlement movement, in my view, makes peace almost impossible, because the direction of peace would be for Israel to give back the land it conquered, but how can you give back land when you have these passionate citizens living on it?

At least, that's how I understand it, and now everyone can tell me how I'm wrong.

Thats a good post!

i would just add that the British defeated the curent occupiers the Ottomans in WW1 then got it under mandate from the League of nations in around 1922. there was no such entity as Israel or palestine or indeed Iraq, Palestine, Jordan, Syria and Lebanon during that time it was all Ottoman.


Heres access to more maps:

Unimaps.com - Jordan and Palestine at 1914

 

[kai]

Another thing which is really weird. If you really, seriously, want to understand this conflict, it is rooted in World War I. After WW I, the victorious powers divvied up what they had won, and the Middle East got carved up in an argument between France and Britain that had everything to do with the recent war and the jostling between those countries, and very little to do with the people who lived there. So you could say, in a way, to this day we are fighting the mess created when Britain tried to **** France off almost a hundred years ago. Weird, eh?

well the thing is it goes farthur back than that, due to various Islamic empires carving it up ending in around 600 years of Ottoman rule there ended up vast tracts of land with no nation states in it.



This may be of interest:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paris_Peace_Conference,_1919

 

[Autodidact]

Yes, you really couldn't say that the Palestinians have ruled Palestine for many, many centuries. They've lived there, but not had self-governance in recent history.

 

[free spirit]

Last I heard, the idea that the state of Israel will destroy the mosque is nothing more than a rumor created by those who wish to instill fear in the Palestinians. In other words, it is nothing more than a lie.

What is the state of Israel without the Jewish temple? Nothing, that is what it is, because the temple is the center of who they are.

Therefore Jews must say that it is a lie, because it is not the time yet.

 

[kai]

Yes, you really couldn't say that the Palestinians have ruled Palestine for many, many centuries. They've lived there, but not had self-governance in recent history.

Well you couldnt really say "palestinians" have governed ever! but that depends who exactly is a Palestinian and who isnt .

 

[Autodidact]

What is the state of Israel without the Jewish temple? Nothing, that is what it is, because the temple is the center of who they are.

The modern state of Israel is primarily a secular state created for secular reasons. In its first borders, Jerusalem was an international city contained with Arab Palestine.

Therefore Jews must say that it is a lie, because it is not the time yet.

Time for what?

 

[Autodidact]

OTOH, from the Palestianian point of view, I'm guessing they justly anticipated that if the British ever left, they would have a self-governing Palestine, and felt quite ripped off to have the Jews enter the scene and muck their dream up.

My perception since then is that they have been mistreated and exploited by their Arab neighbors, who have not allowed them to assimilate, have not effectively advocated for them, have exploited their situation to increase their own power within their countries, and basically treated them very badly.

The end result is clear--they are much worse off now than they would have been had the Arab countries accepted the U.N. partition. Unless something amazing happens, if there is ever a two-state solution, it will probably be quite close to that, and possibly worse. Note that Jerusalem was NOT part of the original country of Israel, and is now the most difficult bargaining point in any negotations.

 

[arizol]

What would you call it then? The Palestinians have been baracaded inside of their homes and not allowed to leave unless they're leaving the country. They are being starved to death and forced to survive on the most meager resources.

On what ground to you claim that the so called Palestinians are being starved to death? show me the prove of most meager resources? That territory that is being occupied by Arabs receives the biggest welfare from UN in the world, Israel supplies them with water, gas and electricity but for fools it's never enough for some reason they want Jews to share every thing they have, put their sweat and blood and someone wants us to give it to somebody else while all those others keep their to them selfs. Enough is enough if you feel sorry for those so called Palestinians why don't you take them to where you live because we Jews owe neither to them nor to Arabs absolutely nothing. There shouldn't be a single Jewish life sacrificed for the sake of Arabs or EU, why should Jews loose out or be sold by people like you who call them selfs peace lovers but did you realize that you are sacrificing one so another can unjustifiably prosper.

Show me prove.

 

[free spirit]

Last I heard, the idea that the state of Israel will destroy the mosque is nothing more than a rumor created by those who wish to instill fear in the Palestinians. In other words, it is nothing more than a lie.

No it is not a lie, it is a prophecy that will be fulfilled at the proper time.
However the only good thing or bad thing (depending on your point of view) that eventually will come out of the enlarged fleshly Jewish state is the eventual rebuilding of the Jewish temple, which the “Jews” make no secret of wanting to do. But to rebuild the Jewish temple a thirteen hundred year old mosque has to be demolished. Can you imagine the Muslims’ anger and upheaval in the world that its forced demolition will cause? It may well be the trigger that begins the great tribulations foretold in the Book of Revelation. But the zealous “Jews,” with the support of the sympathising Christians, will some how get their way, because religious groups can influence the rulers of the day. Remember Pilate the Roman governor, and how he was forced to abandon the obvious “righteous judgement” in order to please them?
Consequently, one day they will rebuild the temple, which in turn will lead to the revelation of the false Christ (or antichrist). The false Christ will be received as the Messiah by the fleshly Jews because, as you know, the fleshly Jews are still waiting for the Christ and he will display himself in the rebuilt temple as being God. “Having great power” he will deceive many of the sympathising Christians, even the elect if it were possible. Sadly from what I hear preached in the Pentecostal churches and by the televangelists, the deception of gullible Christians and the world has already began.

 

[arizol]

No this isn't a Jew bashing thread, it's a legitimate question. How are Jews justified in going into a land they haven't lived in for 2000 years and forcefully taking it away from the people who have lived there for a long time?

Jews always lived in Israel, at times they were a minority but there was always a Jewish presence there, even if we say there were no Jews there for a period of time but neither were Arabs, Arabs last time I checked are from S.A.

Taken away from whom? there was never such a thing as a Palestinian state, Jews got that land from those who owned it at that time, Brits who captured it from Ottomans and the list goes back and back all the way till Romans and that list does not include Palestinians so we feel absolutely fine I'm sure we could have felt even better then the current situation but unfortunately Jews care to much what others think of us after all these years of oppression Jews want to show that we are just like everybody else "humans" so they constantly try to do favors to Arabs an Europeans even at the cost of Israeli Jewish lives, I guess it is wrong, if we want to be like everybody else we should start acting like every body else, by force, the only language that can guaranty national survival, the entire world to this day keeps pushing their agenda by force keeps occupying and conquering lands but we Jews are the evil ones. One rabbi who very much loved his people ones said it is better to have a strong and hated by every body Israel then a loved by every body Auschwitz, I can only imagine if Jews would be as violent to defend them selfs as Arabs.

 

[Quagmire]

**Mod Post***

Due to the nature of the discussion so far, this thread has been moved to Political Debates.
​

 

[free spirit]

You are disgusting, you are either lying to your self or just full of it, on what ground to you claim that the so called Palestinians are being starved to death? show me the prove of most meager resources? That territory that is being occupied by Arabs receives the biggest welfare from UN in the world, Israel supplies them with water, gas and electricity but for fools it's never enough for some reason they want Jews to share every thing they have, put their sweat and blood and someone wants us to give it to somebody else while all those others keep their to them selfs. Enough is enough if you feel sorry for those so called Palestinians why don't you take them to where you live because we Jews owe neither to them nor to Arabs absolutely nothing. There shouldn't be a single Jewish life sacrificed for the sake of Arabs or EU, why should Jews loose out or be sold by people like you who call them selfs peace lovers but did you realize that you are sacrificing one so another can unjustifiably prosper.

Show me prove.

Yes you are discasting, and also full of yourself: For prove all you have to do is watch the news where palestinians have been evicted from their farms from their homes, Palestinians have a tricol of water, the jews in abondace, Yes the Jews are very generous to the Palestinians certainly more than the nazi were to the people that suffered the holocaust.

The solution to this mess is to declare all palestinians citizens of Israel with equal rights and oblications. A bylingual state with one law.

World opinion is changing as they see the daily injustces suffered by the Palestinians.
Woe to Israel if it does not change

 

[Poisonshady313]

Also the Israeli settlement movement, in my view, makes peace almost impossible, because the direction of peace would be for Israel to give back the land it conquered, but how can you give back land when you have these passionate citizens living on it?

At least, that's how I understand it, and now everyone can tell me how I'm wrong.

You were right up until here.

I don't think the Israeli settlement movement is in any way a factor regarding peace. It's a red herring. It has been said time and time again... borders and the possible relocation of Jews living in what are now settlements are a final status issue. I wouldn't want any part in drawing the borders for a potential nation whose purpose for being is to destroy me. Peace must come first. Peace must be unconditional.

 

[free spirit]

You were right up until here.

I don't think the Israeli settlement movement is in any way a factor regarding peace. It's a red herring. It has been said time and time again... borders and the possible relocation of Jews living in what are now settlements are a final status issue. I wouldn't want any part in drawing the borders for a potential nation whose purpose for being is to destroy me. Peace must come first. Peace must be unconditional.

But only you must hold the gun

 

[Flankerl]

A bylingual state with one law.

You do realise that arabic is an official language of the state of israel like hebrew right?

 

[Caladan]

What is the state of Israel without the Jewish temple? Nothing, that is what it is, because the temple is the center of who they are.

Therefore Jews must say that it is a lie, because it is not the time yet.

Did you just roll the book of revelation into a joint and smoke it?
Do you understand that in 1967 after the Israeli army took Jerusalem, the Israeli government and high command ordered that the Temple mount complex together with the Dome of the Rock and the Al Aqsa mosque would be handed to the Islamic authorities?
and this is the case still today, decades after the Israelis have taken Jerusalem and after Israeli paratroopers have taken the site of where the historical Temple rested.
at the moment, Israeli Jews are unauthorized to visit the site.

 

[Caladan]

Arab countries have attacked Israel twice since then. Both times Israel fought back and won, increasing Israeli territory, which really just makes things worse and more complicated.

That is of course true. the territorial gains Israel has made in 1967 (increasing its size by more than 3 times at the time) brought what are now millions of Palestinians under Israel's rule. these people were under the rule of Egypt (Gaza strip) and Jordan (West Bank) before. it is no surprising that Egypt did not want to include the Gaza strip in the peace treaty with Israel, in which Israel has given back the territory it has taken from Egypt in the 1967 campaign, when Jordan signed a peace treaty with Israel it did not lay claim to the West Bank either. if you look at why, its pretty obvious. in the 70's the Jordanian military has killed tens of thousands of Palestinians when crushing a Palestinian uprising against Jordan, that is, thousands more Palestinian casualties than in the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. Egypt today is making sure that the Palestinians in Gaza strip would be sealed off from Egyptian territory.
basically, while Israel has gained an outstanding military victory, in the long run, Egypt and Jordan have imported the Palestinian problem to Israel.

Also the Israeli settlement movement, in my view, makes peace almost impossible, because the direction of peace would be for Israel to give back the land it conquered, but how can you give back land when you have these passionate citizens living on it?

Thousands of settlers have been evacuated by Israeli governments in various periods in Israeli history in order to reshape the political reality.

At least, that's how I understand it, and now everyone can tell me how I'm wrong.

I think you are making this thread very interesting and enjoyable to debate!