How are Jews justified in creating the state of Israel?

[LuisDantas]

You were right up until here.

I don't think the Israeli settlement movement is in any way a factor regarding peace. It's a red herring. It has been said time and time again... borders and the possible relocation of Jews living in what are now settlements are a final status issue. I wouldn't want any part in drawing the borders for a potential nation whose purpose for being is to destroy me. Peace must come first. Peace must be unconditional.

Peace is by necessity conditional, unfortunately. It only exists when people refuse to engage in violence.

The rest of this post of yours is IMO a bit too condensed to be clear. What do you mean by "a final status issue", for instance? Some elaboration would be very welcome.

 

[free spirit]

Did you just roll the book of revelation into a joint and smoke it?

HA, Haaaaa I am glad to see you have a sense of humour
Do you understand that in 1967 after the Israeli army took Jerusalem, the Israeli government and high command ordered that the Temple mount complex together with the Dome of the Rock and the Al Aqsa mosque would be handed to the Islamic authorities?
and this is the case still today, decades after the Israelis have taken Jerusalem and after Israeli paratroopers have taken the site of where the historical Temple rested.
at the moment, Israeli Jews are unauthorized to visit the site.

Yes, Yes, what you say is correct, once prime minister sharon visited the site and blood was shed. what I said is in the future, you must know that the religious Jews want to rebuild the temple, and they will prevail.

 

[Caladan]

I don't care about Israel either way, even though I don't agree with it's actions. I just wish my government would cut the parasite off of our backs.

Meaning stop sending funds to Israel when we're in a financial hole ourselves. Israel is a parasite draining the life out of America.

I see enoughie has done a good job on answering this marvelously presented argument but I'll elaborate a bit more.
right now, the American national debt stands at about 14 trillion $. that means about 14 thousand billion dollars.
I wonder how a 3 billion 'aid' counts for the American financial troubles or economical woes. it is practically a drop in the ocean.
further more, as enoughie eloquently explained. the American aid to Israel is a long term guarantee for American interests on various important levels, economic, political and strategic.
economic, because the vast majority of the 'generous American aid' obligates Israel to spend it on American military hardware, that is 75% of it. it is a guarantee that Israel will keep buying and spending large amounts of money on American technology.
it means that American technology is going to be battle tested by professional Israeli personnel in the Mid eastern arena. for example the Israeli Air Force was the first to make kills using the legendary F-15. this new plane at the time was used by Israel to 'battle test it' against Russian made MiGs, such as the MiG-21 Fishbed and the MiG-25 Foxbat, Foxbat being the Russian plane that the F-15 was designed to counter. other Russian made planes were taken down by Israelis using the F-15.
Israel has used the F-15 in various places through out the region, from Lebanon to Tunisia.
not only did the Israelis were the first ones to ever test what was an uber modern aircraft at the time in real life situations, but to date out of the 108 kills made by F-15s by all Airforces who have used these plane around the world, most of the kills were achieved by the Israelis. this means that Israel has downed about 60 Russian made fighter planes using this particular American made plane, and has also used the plane for various operations deep in enemy territory. much of it was done during the cold war, in the height of American-Soviet tension, I'm sure I do not need to explain the importance of that.

Egypt for example also receives annual aid from the US, almost the same amount of money Israel receives. I wonder, does the US benefit as much from the aid given to Egypt?
are we ever going to label the Egyptians 'parasites' senedjem?

 

[free spirit]

You do realise that arabic is an official language of the state of israel like hebrew right?

Then you are half way there, why not go all the way and restore peace to that land. Embrace all the Palestinians as brothers shering the land and destiny.
The truth is that you cannot call a gentile brother, you are the chosen people, you do not want him as neighbour, you must cleanse the land this is why you are there.

 

[free spirit]

I don't even know what this means. Could you try it again? thanks.

The state of Israel was created because those who practised the Jewish religion had been persecuted by the nazy. that religion is what has united them to this day, and because their religion had once florished in that area they wanted to go back there, on the pretext that God had promise that land to them.

So religion is the divide here, the Jewish religion is the religion of the state of Israel; if you are of that faith you are welcome in Israel, three millions Palestinians are in exile and those who live in Israel are foreigner in their own country.

So here religion is used for evil ends like many other times before all religions are guilty of that.

 

[Reverend Rick]

They don't even believe in prophecy.

Huh? They are still waiting for prophecy to be fulfilled.

 

[LuisDantas]

The state of Israel was created because those who practised the Jewish religion had been persecuted by the nazy.

That is only true in the most technical of senses. The Zionists were buying lands legally in the region long before the Nazists took power. Had the League of Nations not taken the initiative of recognizing Israel - or for that matter, had Nazism never existed - there would still be a Jewish settlement of some kind there. It wouldn't necessarily be recognized as a State, and it could have all kinds of trouble with military defense and other needs, but I have no doubt that the Zionists meant business quite independently of Nazi Germany.

To be fair, there is equally no doubt that Nazism did provide a lot of incentive in its own, twisted way. But it is not really a root cause of the existence of Israel.

that religion is what has united them to this day, and because their religion had once florished in that area they wanted to go back there, on the pretext that God had promise that land to them.

So religion is the divide here, the Jewish religion is the religion of the state of Israel; if you are of that faith you are welcome in Israel, three millions Palestinians are in exile and those who live in Israel are foreigner in their own country.

So here religion is used for evil ends like many other times before all religions are guilty of that.

The Jewish people are united by a lot more than just their beliefs, and they went through the trouble of buying the land. Also, Israel has a lot of inhabitants of Muslim faith, among others.

Tensions are a serious problems, to be sure. But I fear that you are presenting things in too simplistic terms to be true to facts.

 

[Father Heathen]

Regardless of its controversial origins and it's political and military faults, Israel's presence is still a vast improvement to the region.

 

[Rainbow Mage]

I see enoughie has done a good job on answering this marvelously presented argument but I'll elaborate a bit more.
right now, the American national debt stands at about 14 trillion $. that means about 14 thousand billion dollars.
I wonder how a 3 billion 'aid' counts for the American financial troubles or economical woes. it is practically a drop in the ocean.
further more, as enoughie eloquently explained. the American aid to Israel is a long term guarantee for American interests on various important levels, economic, political and strategic.
economic, because the vast majority of the 'generous American aid' obligates Israel to spend it on American military hardware, that is 75% of it. it is a guarantee that Israel will keep buying and spending large amounts of money on American technology.
it means that American technology is going to be battle tested by professional Israeli personnel in the Mid eastern arena. for example the Israeli Air Force was the first to make kills using the legendary F-15. this new plane at the time was used by Israel to 'battle test it' against Russian made MiGs, such as the MiG-21 Fishbed and the MiG-25 Foxbat, Foxbat being the Russian plane that the F-15 was designed to counter. other Russian made planes were taken down by Israelis using the F-15.
Israel has used the F-15 in various places through out the region, from Lebanon to Tunisia.
not only did the Israelis were the first ones to ever test what was an uber modern aircraft at the time in real life situations, but to date out of the 108 kills made by F-15s by all Airforces who have used these plane around the world, most of the kills were achieved by the Israelis. this means that Israel has downed about 60 Russian made fighter planes using this particular American made plane, and has also used the plane for various operations deep in enemy territory. much of it was done during the cold war, during the height of American-Soviet tension, I'm sure I do not need to explain the importance of that.

Egypt for example also received annual aid from the US, almost the same amount of money Israel receives. I wonder, does the US benefit as much from the aid given to Egypt?
are we ever going to label the Egyptians 'parasites' senedjem?

In the long run Egypt doesn't cost us half as much as Israel does. None of the other nations we help combined cost us as much. The reason people think that is because they only look at the actual funds we send Israel, but not at the other stuff we do for them. We always run to their defense anytime there's aggressors on their tails in the Middle East. I wouldn't be surprised if that's what this war on terror is actually all about is to cover Israel's back. Every time Israel gets into trouble America is the first one they run to. That's dollars people aren't taking into account here.

 

[free spirit]

The modern state of Israel is primarily a secular state created for secular reasons. In its first borders, Jerusalem was an international city contained with Arab Palestine.
No, the jewish religion is the religion of the state of Israel. Israel is not a secular state only those who are of the Jewish faith are assisted to migrate to Israel.

Time for what?

The religious Jews want to rebuild the temple that was dertroied by the Romans, but to rebuild the temple on the same spot a 1300 years old mosque has to be demolished.
you ask "time for what" time to demolish the mosque.

 

[Rainbow Mage]

Huh? They are still waiting for prophecy to be fulfilled.

I was speaking of the secular atheistic Jews who make up the majority of Israel's population.

 

[Blackheart]

Regardless of its controversial origins and it's political and military faults, Israel's presence is still a vast improvement to the region.

Somehow I dont think the families who have been unfairly removed from their homes or murdered by Israeli soldiers would agree with you there.

 

[TJ73]

I have tried for a while now to understand the history and current situation and it is complex. There are a good many people on both sides trying to reach out to one another but still so many hard on expelling the other side. Even a two sstate solution is going to be troublesome. I vote for Israelistine or even Palisreal. One secular state providing freedom for everyone to live and worship under one roof.

 

[Rainbow Mage]

I have tried for a while now to understand the history and current situation and it is complex. There are a good many people on both sides trying to reach out to one another but still so many hard on expelling the other side. Even a two sstate solution is going to be troublesome. I vote for Israelistine or even Palisreal. One secular state providing freedom for everyone to live and worship under one roof.

Well I think a two state solution would be best because it doesn't seem the Jews and Palestinians will ever be able to live under one nation.

 

[TJ73]

Well I think a two state solution would be best because it doesn't seem the Jews and Palestinians will ever be able to live under one nation.

You never know. With every generation comes change. Perhaps there will be a stronger movement towards cooperation. You never what the future holds. There could be some dramatic change in the world, a natural change a political change .... There could be a catalyst that brings a new attitude. We can pray or wish or hope.

 

[Blackheart]

The state of Israel was created because those who practised the Jewish religion had been persecuted by the nazy. that religion is what has united them to this day, and because their religion had once florished in that area they wanted to go back there, on the pretext that God had promise that land to them.

So religion is the divide here, the Jewish religion is the religion of the state of Israel; if you are of that faith you are welcome in Israel, three millions Palestinians are in exile and those who live in Israel are foreigner in their own country.

So here religion is used for evil ends like many other times before all religions are guilty of that.

You seem to be missing the secular involvement of the UN here. Without their drive (ochestrated by the UK) to establish 'the return to the promise land' there would be no Israel today. Again it boils down to the dominace of the west and their self centered ambitions. Religion can only be guilty for peoples actions when religion instructs those actions. Correct me if im wrong but no religious scripture says that the Arabs should be made prisioners in their own country so that the west can indulge in their ideology. The Jews could not have done this alone and therefore the west is as guilty as anyone for what is happening.

 

[Flankerl]

Then you are half way there, why not go all the way and restore peace to that land. Embrace all the Palestinians as brothers shering the land and destiny.
The truth is that you cannot call a gentile brother, you are the chosen people, you do not want him as neighbour, you must cleanse the land this is why you are there.

First of all iam not half way anywhere since iam not israeli.
The problem with the one state solution is that israeli jews would be a minority in israel and that would mean that the country wouldnt be called israel for very long. Also yeah it would totally work out for israeli jews and palestinians living in one country. Because you know all those terrorists would be really peaceful all of sudden.
Thats how the world works.

The religious Jews want to rebuild the temple that was dertroied by the Romans, but to rebuild the temple on the same spot a 1300 years old mosque has to be demolished.
you ask "time for what" time to demolish the mosque.

lol yeah there are some jews that would want to rebuild the temple but they are a minority in a minority.

 

[free spirit]

Well this tread has become a political debate and I must op out of it because I believe that politically the chinese have the right to do what they like to Tibet.
And that India politically has the right to do what they like to Cashemer.
and politically the Israely have the right to do what they like in palestine.
You do not have to have much of a brain to know why, they have the biger gun thats why.
So I believe we cannot mix politics with spirituality and come out smiling, for mixing the two you will create pure evil, the Devil incarnated. :angel2:
Once the pope was such a man. at present some muslims are working hard to be that man and the Israely are on their heels.:sad:

 

[Blackheart]

You never know. With every generation comes change. Perhaps there will be a stronger movement towards cooperation. You never what the future holds. There could be some dramatic change in the world, a natural change a political change .... There could be a catalyst that brings a new attitude. We can pray or wish or hope.

The Israelis do not want to live in harmony. If this was the case they wouldnt be building more settlements on Palestinain land and then calling them terrosists when they try to resist their homes being bulldozed. Israel will devour as much land as it can and the west will continue to support this by supplying them with arms etc as it has done for decades. In the meanwhile Palestine is not allowed to buy a brick to rebuild a school or medication for this sick. Meanwhile the west supports Israel and then shows a face of mediator in the media.

 

[Rainbow Mage]

The Israelis do not want to live in harmony. If this was the case they wouldnt be building more settlements on Palestinain land and then calling them terrosists when they try to resist their homes being bulldozed. Israel will devour as much land as it can and the west will continue to support this by supplying them with arms etc as it has done for decades. In the meanwhile Palestine is not allowed to buy a brick to rebuild a school or medication for this sick. Meanwhile the west supports Israel and then shows a face of mediator in the media.

Yep pretty much. Once they're done with Palestine they'll move on to Lebanon and Jordan. After all that was once part of ancient Israel as well. They'll find some way to justify it. All I have to say is they better not mess with Egypt, or there will be heck to pay.