How are Jews justified in creating the state of Israel?

[Rainbow Mage]

You make Islamic fundamentalists look like peaceful pussycats in comparison.
I hope your views aren't very widespread.....especially in politicians.

Unfortunately they are. This is the mentality Zionism creates. I have heard several Jews say exactly the same thing.

 

[fallingblood]

The Palestinians call for Jewish genocide after having genocide done to them first.

Can you show that to be true? You've never even shown that the Jews waged genocide on the Palestinians. When asked about it, you made a lame attempt to justify your comment, by describing something clearly not genocide.

You can't simply throw around the word genocide when you want to demonize a people. It simply doesn't work.

 

[fallingblood]

Unfortunately they are. This is the mentality Zionism creates. I have heard several Jews say exactly the same thing.

Zionism and Judaism are different. And not even all Zionists agree on everything, it is a diverse ideology.

More so, what you're saying simply isn't true anyway.

 

[Autodidact]

No it is not a lie, it is a prophecy that will be fulfilled at the proper time.
However the only good thing or bad thing (depending on your point of view) that eventually will come out of the enlarged fleshly Jewish state is the eventual rebuilding of the Jewish temple, which the “Jews” make no secret of wanting to do. But to rebuild the Jewish temple a thirteen hundred year old mosque has to be demolished. Can you imagine the Muslims’ anger and upheaval in the world that its forced demolition will cause? It may well be the trigger that begins the great tribulations foretold in the Book of Revelation. But the zealous “Jews,” with the support of the sympathising Christians, will some how get their way, because religious groups can influence the rulers of the day. Remember Pilate the Roman governor, and how he was forced to abandon the obvious “righteous judgement” in order to please them?
Consequently, one day they will rebuild the temple, which in turn will lead to the revelation of the false Christ (or antichrist). The false Christ will be received as the Messiah by the fleshly Jews because, as you know, the fleshly Jews are still waiting for the Christ and he will display himself in the rebuilt temple as being God. “Having great power” he will deceive many of the sympathising Christians, even the elect if it were possible. Sadly from what I hear preached in the Pentecostal churches and by the televangelists, the deception of gullible Christians and the world has already began.

None of this will ever happen.
Prove me wrong.

 

[Autodidact]

You were right up until here.

I don't think the Israeli settlement movement is in any way a factor regarding peace. It's a red herring. It has been said time and time again... borders and the possible relocation of Jews living in what are now settlements are a final status issue. I wouldn't want any part in drawing the borders for a potential nation whose purpose for being is to destroy me. Peace must come first. Peace must be unconditional.

Would you agree that it is the goal of the settlement movement to influence the outcome of these final status issues, that is, to make it more difficult for this land ever not to be part of the state of Israel?

 

[Enoughie]

The Palestinians call for Jewish genocide after having genocide done to them first.

If you start a thread about a specific topic, and make baseless assertions like the one above, at least have the decency to respond to direct questions.

You can start here: http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/2299350-post17.html

_____________________
Natural Philosophy of Life - a simple, elegant, and powerful alternative to religious dogma

 

[Autodidact]

Yes, Yes, what you say is correct, once prime minister sharon visited the site and blood was shed. what I said is in the future, you must know that the religious Jews want to rebuild the temple, and they will prevail.

Can you tell me what the winning lottery numbers will be next week? Thanks.

 

[Autodidact]

Then you are half way there, why not go all the way and restore peace to that land. Embrace all the Palestinians as brothers shering the land and destiny.
The truth is that you cannot call a gentile brother, you are the chosen people, you do not want him as neighbour, you must cleanse the land this is why you are there.

free spirit is so talented; he can foretell the future and read minds! Must be nifty.

 

[Enoughie]

.....I hope Israel will make it clear to the rest of the world that they will use nuclear weapons on all those who threaten Jewish existens, enough is enough, if we don't have the right to live then NO BODY DOES, we go down we take down every body with us.


You make Islamic fundamentalists look like peaceful pussycats in comparison.
I hope your views aren't very widespread.....especially in politicians.

And how was that comment different from the U.S. saying that "all options are on the table"?

Is the U.S. also worse than Islamic fundamentalists.

It was a dumb comment, but don't blow it out of proportion.

_____________________
Natural Philosophy of Life - a simple, elegant, and powerful alternative to religious dogma

 

[Autodidact]

The state of Israel was created because those who practised the Jewish religion had been persecuted by the nazy.

This is false, or at best a gross oversimplification.

that religion is what has united them to this day, and because their religion had once florished in that area they wanted to go back there, on the pretext that God had promise that land to them.

I don't think you have a good grasp of what Jewishness means. It is both a religion and an ethnic identity. The state of Israel is much more about the latter than the former. In fact, as I already said, most Orthodox Jews oppose the creation of the state of Israel, for religious reasons.

So religion is the divide here, the Jewish religion is the religion of the state of Israel; if you are of that faith you are welcome in Israel, three millions Palestinians are in exile and those who live in Israel are foreigner in their own country.

So here religion is used for evil ends like many other times before all religions are guilty of that.

It's more about ethnicity than religion. I understand this is a bit foreign to a Christian, but it might help you to view Judaism as a tribal religion. One is born into the tribe [nation] of Jews, or one can be adopted in or join voluntarily. To be a Jew means much more than subscribing to the Jewish religion, and there are many, myself included, atheist Jews.

 

[Autodidact]

Regardless of its controversial origins and it's political and military faults, Israel's presence is still a vast improvement to the region.

It's a two-edged sword, don't you think? It brings prosperity, democracy and education, but also a lot of hostility, violence, and an excuse and scapegoat for Muslim and Arab leaders to focus and distract their populace.

 

[Autodidact]

The religious Jews want to rebuild the temple that was dertroied by the Romans, but to rebuild the temple on the same spot a 1300 years old mosque has to be demolished.
you ask "time for what" time to demolish the mosque.

The Al Aksa mosque? You've been snowed by some conspiracy wingnuts. The Jews have not the slightest intent to destroy it. I'm sure Caladan can fill us in in more detail.

This is an interesting subject, though, because once you get into Jerusalem, you seriously do get into disputes that are 1500 years old. I think for both religions, control of these sites in Jerusalem has a symbolic meaning as to who is right about God. Islam has always asserted control of certain religious sites, primarily Mecca, as a way of asserting that it is the one true religion. So this site has a symbolic, historic significance as a physical manifestation of who is right about God. I agree that religion is an extremely destructive force, and the primary reason people are fighting over the same acre of land for 15 centuries. If everyone there turned atheist tomorrow, this would be trivially easy to solve. As it is, it is going to be very touchy to work out.

Please note that in 1947, the entire city was designated International, that is, nuetral. The Jews accepted this; the Arabs did not. Eventual settlement may include some version of this. Stupid so many people had to die, isn't it?

 

[YmirGF]

It's a two-edged sword, don't you think? It brings prosperity, democracy and education, but also a lot of hostility, violence, and an excuse and scapegoat for Muslim and Arab leaders to focus and distract their populace.

Come now, Auto, it's not like these lovely people needed much of an excuse. Those leaders are simply playing on deeply held, age old prejudices that are grounded in Islamic theology.

 

[Blackheart]

I think your hatred for Israel is really shining through now. And I have to say that it is simply based on ignorance. You've created illogical arguments as to why Israel is evil, yet, when well informed individuals on this site have tried to correct you, you simply dismiss the information and continue with how evil Israel is.

I see no evidence of Israel wanting to take over all that land. Maybe some do, but I would say that is a minority. I understand that the Israelis are tired of the ordeal, as they have been attacked various times from surrounding countries (which raises the question, why was it okay for Egypt to attack Israel, yet the other way around is evil? You may want to answer that sometime). So I'm sure they are weary, but I see no evidence for a massive campaign like you are suggesting. Especially since they aren't stupid.

As for the United States giving all of this money to Israel, it was already explained why. We don't need to protect them, they do so fine by themselves. Maybe you want to drop the hate speech, and look at it in a rational manner. Because honestly, all of the hatred and ignorance you've been spreading lately (both about Islam and Israel) is really sickening.

I cannot simply go to America and pronounce a new state for me and my friends simply because, once upon a time I had some ancestors living there. I would expect America to attack my state and if for some reason they couldnt do it then im sure America's allies would do so on their behalf.

No country is simply evil but Israel's political/military actions are.

As for America protecting Israel well let me ask you this. Why is the vast majority of their military weaponary Amercian? Of course America protects them. Which other states in the middle east have nuclear weapons? Which other states have nuclear weapons, show a blatant disregard for civilian human life and are not under any type of sanctions to disarm their nuclear capability? Or even to merely stop the oppression?

Its not hate speech to say that Israel should not be allowed to oppress those who are simply incappable of defending themselves. Get a grip!

 

[Autodidact]

I have tried for a while now to understand the history and current situation and it is complex. There are a good many people on both sides trying to reach out to one another but still so many hard on expelling the other side. Even a two sstate solution is going to be troublesome. I vote for Israelistine or even Palisreal. One secular state providing freedom for everyone to live and worship under one roof.

In theory I agree, but if the majority are Muslims, isn't there a significant risk they would vote in an Islamic state with Sharia law, and Jews having dhimmi status, which many Muslims think is just fine?

 

[Autodidact]

Well I think a two state solution would be best because it doesn't seem the Jews and Palestinians will ever be able to live under one nation.

So you would agree that the Arabs made a bad decision by rejecting a two-state plan in 1947?

 

[Autodidact]

Yep pretty much. Once they're done with Palestine they'll move on to Lebanon and Jordan. After all that was once part of ancient Israel as well. They'll find some way to justify it. All I have to say is they better not mess with Egypt, or there will be heck to pay.

This is ridiculous. Remember, it was the Arab states that have attacked Israel, not the other way around. (except in 1956.)

 

[Autodidact]

You are simplistic; according to you buying the land is all that is needed to create a nation

Not what he said. However, legal immigrants should have a say in the affairs of their adopted land, don't you agree?

 

[Autodidact]

The Palestinians call for Jewish genocide after having genocide done to them first.

When did that happen? Remember, the U.N. gave them a country. They rejected it, and attacked Israel. That's the historic fact.

 

[Autodidact]

I cannot simply go to America and pronounce a new state for me and my friends simply because, once upon a time I had some ancestors living there. I would expect America to attack my state and if for some reason they couldnt do it then im sure America's allies would do so on their behalf.

Wait, other than the ancestors part, isn't this exactly how the United States came into existence? A bunch of Europeans moved here and pronounced a new state.