How are Jews justified in creating the state of Israel?

[Rainbow Mage]

The Palestianians made a lot of bad choices, which contributed greatly to them being where they are today. The "friends" of the Palestianians, the governments of Syria, Jordan, Egypt and Lebanon, exploited and betrayed them, contributing greatly to them being where they are today.

Facts, sen, facts.

I acknowledge that yes, but does that justify the treatment by the Israeli government? Does that make it somehow more humane?

 

[Enoughie]

That's a tough one. The fundies threaten more, but the US is capable of perpetrating more. I don't think "worse" applies.
Moreover, the US gov't is not making the same statement as Arizol, who shows callous disregard for lives of all non-Jews.

He basically said that if the existence of a nation is threatened, it could use nuclear weapons.

That's an action in self-defense.

That view is even consistent with what the International Court of Justice. Which concluded: threat of use of nuclear weapons is allowed "in an extreme circumstance of self-defence, in which the very survival of a State would be at stake"

I'd say that that's a bit different from fundamentalist Muslims who have no qualms about attacking civilians not for self defense.

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[Enoughie]

If anything, you're looking a lot more full of hate than he is.

And how is that exactly?

When did I accuse someone of a genocide? When did I call a nation "parasites"?

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Natural Philosophy of Life - a simple, elegant, and powerful alternative to religious dogma

 

[Enoughie]

Tell the Gazans and the people who try to send them aid, who are intercepted by Israel's Navy that it's fiction.

Suddenly you pretend to be all innocent.

You accused Israel of a genocide, and "worse than in a concentration camp." Now it's just that Israel is preventing aid?

There are hundreds of trucks of aid going to Gaza every day. That one ship contained barely 25% of what goes into Gaza on daily basis.

Now, I already said that the situation in Gaza is terrible, and I referred you to my previous post. But you keep ignoring it.

Like I said, prove it's a perverted view. We all see the news and know Israel intercepts Gazan aid and only lets them leave their homes to leave the strip.

I actually acknowledged that auto-diadect was correct above, if you scroll up. I then stated what exactly I don't agree with.

Gee I wonder what

I did prove you wrong. But you pretend that I didn't. I refer you (for the 4th time) to my post which you keep ignoring: http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/2299350-post17.html

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[Revoltingest]

He basically said that if the existence of a nation is threatened, it could use nuclear weapons.

I don't object to self-defense, but he said so much more.

I'd say that that's a bit different from fundamentalist Muslims who have no qualms about attacking civilians not for self defense.

Not all fundie Muslims are that way.

And how is that exactly?
When did I accuse someone of a genocide? When did I call a nation "parasites"?

I never said that you accused anyone of anything nor called anyone anything.
But your language & tone are extremely hostile towards him.

 

[Rainbow Mage]

Suddenly you pretend to be all innocent.

You accused Israel of a genocide, and "worse than in a concentration camp." Now it's just that Israel is preventing aid?

That's a big part of it. Israel doesn't want people to see how truly terrible life inside Gaza is.

There are hundreds of trucks of aid going to Gaza every day. That one ship contained barely 25% of what goes into Gaza on daily basis.

And keeping them barracaded in their houses with no access to power or other resources is fine?

Now, I already said that the situation in Gaza is terrible, and I referred you to my previous post. But you keep ignoring it.

You can say it's terrible, but it's just words if you keep trying to justify Israel in doing it.

I did prove you wrong. But you pretend that I didn't. I refer you (for the 4th time) to my post which you keep ignoring: http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/2299350-post17.html

You asked me about other nations. This thread is about the nation of Israel, not any others. You should start a new thread and we'll discuss it. I want to keep this thread on topic because it addresses a serious world issue.
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[Autodidact]

I acknowledge that yes, but does that justify the treatment by the Israeli government? Does that make it somehow more humane?

Israel is in a very difficult position now. It's hard to imagine what positions or tactics are right or best. In general, I disagree with the tack they take most of the time. However, making stuff up does not help your argument. It works better to get a better understanding of the situation.

I think one of the main problems is trust; neither side trusts each other. Each side thinks the other side is out to destroy it.

I have to say, in the case of Israel, this is substantiated. The other side says so on a regular basis, and has taken actions consistent with it. So it's hard for Israel to justify trusting them, and following the direction of peace.

This is unfortunate, as it would benefit everyone in the area, especially the many Palestinians who benefit from working in the Israeli economy, one of the healthiest in the region.

However, regional leaders prefer to use Israel as a scapegoat to whip their citizens into a hostile frenzy of support for them.

This is aggravated by the historic animosity of Muslims toward the Jews for rejecting Muhammad as a prophet. Most unfortunately, this animosity is symbolized and played out in geography. The True Religion gets to control the holy shrines.

It doesn't help that religious Jews see Israel as divinely "theirs."

So Israel is stuck having to defend itself militarily, which leads to actions that are detrimental to the Palestinians who oppose them.

At least, that's how I see it.

 

[Rainbow Mage]

I admit auto it's a tough situation. No one would deny that. The reason people see me outcry Zionism so much isn't just because of this. This is the worst part of it, that I feel they've gone too far in their treatment of the Palestinians, but it's not the only issue. Zionism also divides Jews. It brings some Jews who support Zionism into a mentality that is versus non-Zionist Jews. While non-Zionist Jews, at least me personally, do not hate Zionist Jews, and are really very concerned for the safety of Jews who reside in Israel.

 

[Enoughie]

That's a big part of it. Israel doesn't want people to see how truly terrible life inside Gaza is.

Israel is doing exactly what Egypt is doing, they are both barricading Gaza.

And keeping them barracaded in their houses with no access to power or other resources is fine?

You can say it's terrible, but it's just words if you keep trying to justify Israel in doing it.

I'm an not justifying Israel. I am presenting the facts as they are - I'm being objective. You, on the other hand, are spreading lies and hate.

The situation in Gaza is terrible, but it is nothing like a genocide, or a concentration camp. All health indicators show that life in Gaza is better than in neighboring Egypt, for example. Or in a over a 100 other countries and territories.

So your claim that a genocide is going on in Gaza, and that life is Gaza is "worse than in a concentration camp" is pure hateful propaganda.

If you think that by spreading hateful propaganda you're helping the people in Gaza in some way (and that by me being objective I'm hurting the people in Gaza), then you're dead wrong. It is clear to everyone that the solution to the situation is directly tied to the will of the Hamas government in Gaza to come to an agreement with the Fatah government in the WB.

Otherwise, you'll just make the situation worse. Because Hamas will continue shooting rockets from Gaza on Israel, which will lead to another war.

You asked me about other nations. This thread is about the nation of Israel, not any others. You should start a new thread and we'll discuss it. I want to keep this thread on topic because it addresses a serious world issue.

The point was not what you think about other countries. It's about the fact that you're spreading lies. If the health indicators in Gaza tell you that a genocide is going on there, than you must conclude the same about a 100 other countries and territories also (including Egypt, Turkey, and many others).


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Natural Philosophy of Life - a simple, elegant, and powerful alternative to religious dogma

 

[Rainbow Mage]

Enoughie when you start making accusations against your opponent like calling them liars, a debate is pretty much done. If you can't at least be sensible in addressing my posts, I'm done.

 

[Flankerl]

In your sarcasm and disregard for Palestinian life you can't see how similar to the Holocaust what Israel is doing to the Gazans is.

So germany and its allies murdered around 12.775.000 million people during the holocaust in about 6 years.

Are you seriously implying that more than 13 million palestians have been murdered by israel? Seriously? Actually it should be way more since israel had way more time for their genocide shouldnt it?

 

[Enoughie]

Enoughie when you start making accusations against your opponent like calling them liars, a debate is pretty much done. If you can't at least be sensible in addressing my posts, I'm done.

What are your points that I'm not addressing? You've claimed that Israel is conducting a genocide, and that is exactly the point that I'm addressing.

I never called you a liar.

You said that what Israel is doing in Gaza is a genocide, and "worse than in a concentration camp."

I showed that your statement is incorrect, and backed up my claim by evidence. Yet, you choose to ignore it and continue saying the same thing.

So what does this behavior imply? Is that an honest conduct? No. If you continue to say the same thing after being proven wrong then what you're doing is spreading lies.

Instead of sensibly addressing the issues, you're now trying to make this personal.

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[Enoughie]

I never said that you accused anyone of anything nor called anyone anything.
But your language & tone are extremely hostile towards him.

My language and tone are not so much hostile toward Senedjem, as toward what he's saying. Which is: falsely accusing a nation of perpetuating a genocide.

I'd say such statements do not deserve much respect.

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Natural Philosophy of Life - a simple, elegant, and powerful alternative to religious dogma

 

[Revoltingest]

My language and tone are not so much hostile toward Senedjem, as toward what he's saying. Which is: falsely accusing a nation of perpetuating a genocide.
I'd say such statements do not deserve much respect.

I'd say that he deserves respect....as you refute what he posts.

 

[free spirit]

This is false, or at best a gross oversimplification. I don't think you have a good grasp of what Jewishness means. It is both a religion and an ethnic identity. The state of Israel is much more about the latter than the former. In fact, as I already said, most Orthodox Jews oppose the creation of the state of Israel, for religious reasons.

It's more about ethnicity than religion. I understand this is a bit foreign to a Christian, but it might help you to view Judaism as a tribal religion. One is born into the tribe [nation] of Jews, or one can be adopted in or join voluntarily. To be a Jew means much more than subscribing to the Jewish religion, and there are many, myself included, atheist Jews.

You don't even know who you are Sorry but you are an atheist Hebrew, and not an atheist Jew, an atheist Jew is a contradition in terms. I am a true Jew, a spiritual Jew for we read in Romans 2:28-29: “For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly; neither is circumcision that which is outward in the flesh. But he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that which is of the heart, by the spirit, not by the letter; and his praise is not from men, but from God.” Holy Spirit-filled Christians can see from the above scriptures that we are the new chosen people and according to the above scripture we are also the spiritual Jews.
Most of the present day fleshly Jews can be excused for their error because they do not understand or believe all the scriptures, but we, the followers of Christ and believers of the New Testament, should recognise them for what they really are, especially when we read in Romans 9:6-13: “But it is not as though the word of God has failed. For they are not all Israel who are descended from Israel, neither are they all children because they are Abraham’s descendants, but through Isaac your descendants will be named. That is, it is not the children of the flesh who are children of God, but the children of the promise are regarded as descendants.”… And verse 13 says: “Just as it is written, Jacob I loved but ESAU I hated.”
Please ask yourself, is Esau a descendant of Abraham? And if he is, why does God say that about him? Obviously Esau is not the apple of God’s eye, even if he is the twin brother of Jacob

 

[Enoughie]

I'd say that he deserves respect....as you refute what he posts.

Absolutely, he deserves respect.

But if I clearly refute his statement, yet he continues to make the same statement afterward, as if it is true, then I'd have to question his motives.

_____________________
Natural Philosophy of Life - a simple, elegant, and powerful alternative to religious dogma

 

[Enoughie]

You don't even know who you are Sorry but you are an atheist Hebrew, and not an atheist Jew, an atheist Jew is a contradition in terms. I am a true Jew, a spiritual Jew for we read in Romans 2:28-29: “For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly; neither is circumcision that which is outward in the flesh. But he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that which is of the heart, by the spirit, not by the letter; and his praise is not from men, but from God.” Holy Spirit-filled Christians can see from the above scriptures that we are the new chosen people and according to the above scripture we are also the spiritual Jews.
Most of the present day fleshly Jews can be excused for their error because they do not understand or believe all the scriptures, but we, the followers of Christ and believers of the New Testament, should recognise them for what they really are, especially when we read in Romans 9:6-13: “But it is not as though the word of God has failed. For they are not all Israel who are descended from Israel, neither are they all children because they are Abraham’s descendants, but through Isaac your descendants will be named. That is, it is not the children of the flesh who are children of God, but the children of the promise are regarded as descendants.”… And verse 13 says: “Just as it is written, Jacob I loved but ESAU I hated.”
Please ask yourself, is Esau a descendant of Abraham? And if he is, why does God say that about him? Obviously Esau is not the apple of God’s eye, even if he is the twin brother of Jacob

From your subjective perspective you're a "true Jew" and he's not, and from his perspective he is an atheist Jew. What makes you right and him wrong? Nothing.

So much arguing about man-made definitions and titles.

_____________________
Natural Philosophy of Life - a simple, elegant, and powerful alternative to religious dogma

 

[Autodidact]

You don't even know who you are Sorry but you are an atheist Hebrew, and not an atheist Jew, an atheist Jew is a contradition in terms. I am a true Jew, a spiritual Jew for we read in Romans 2:28-29: “For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly; neither is circumcision that which is outward in the flesh. But he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that which is of the heart, by the spirit, not by the letter; and his praise is not from men, but from God.” Holy Spirit-filled Christians can see from the above scriptures that we are the new chosen people and according to the above scripture we are also the spiritual Jews.
Most of the present day fleshly Jews can be excused for their error because they do not understand or believe all the scriptures, but we, the followers of Christ and believers of the New Testament, should recognise them for what they really are, especially when we read in Romans 9:6-13: “But it is not as though the word of God has failed. For they are not all Israel who are descended from Israel, neither are they all children because they are Abraham’s descendants, but through Isaac your descendants will be named. That is, it is not the children of the flesh who are children of God, but the children of the promise are regarded as descendants.”… And verse 13 says: “Just as it is written, Jacob I loved but ESAU I hated.”
Please ask yourself, is Esau a descendant of Abraham? And if he is, why does God say that about him? Obviously Esau is not the apple of God’s eye, even if he is the twin brother of Jacob

In order to conform with forum rules, I am going to decline to engage with you. I would appreciate it if you would do likewise. Thank you.

 

[free spirit]

Well this tread has become a political debate and I must op out of it because I believe that politically the chinese have the right to do what they like to Tibet.
And that India politically has the right to do what they like to Cashemer.
and politically the Israely have the right to do what they like in palestine.
You do not have to have much of a brain to know why, they have the biger gun thats why.
So I believe we cannot mix politics with spirituality and come out smiling, for mixing the two you will create pure evil, the Devil incarnated. :angel2:
Once the pope was such a man. at present some muslims are working hard to be that man and the Israely are on their heels.:sad:

 

[Autodidact]

arizol: It is better not to engage with people than to allow them to stir you up into this level of anger. I understand, but I remind you that you are violating forum rules, and the only person who will suffer in that situation is you.