How are Jews justified in creating the state of Israel?

[arizol]

You're right! Dang it.


That's a tough one. The fundies threaten more, but the US is capable of perpetrating more. I don't think "worse" applies.
Moreover, the US gov't is not making the same statement as Arizol, who shows callous disregard for lives of all non-Jews.

All none Jews? have none Jews cared about Jewish lives? lets be realistic not all non Jews are Jew haters but a big amount of them are. Look at the amount of people who take the streets around the world screaming Jews go back to the ovens and all those who claim to be fare to Jews sit quietly and do not oppose them, why not? because you don't care? so fine don't but I do, Im not ready to sacrifice my life or any other Jewish life for those haters or do nothing non Jews who scream equality and when it comes to Jews they sit and do nothing, if they don't care I don't think should Jews care about them in order to survive.

 

[Tarheeler]

Israel is in a very difficult position now. It's hard to imagine what positions or tactics are right or best. In general, I disagree with the tack they take most of the time. However, making stuff up does not help your argument. It works better to get a better understanding of the situation.

I think one of the main problems is trust; neither side trusts each other. Each side thinks the other side is out to destroy it.

I have to say, in the case of Israel, this is substantiated. The other side says so on a regular basis, and has taken actions consistent with it. So it's hard for Israel to justify trusting them, and following the direction of peace.

This is unfortunate, as it would benefit everyone in the area, especially the many Palestinians who benefit from working in the Israeli economy, one of the healthiest in the region.

However, regional leaders prefer to use Israel as a scapegoat to whip their citizens into a hostile frenzy of support for them.

This is aggravated by the historic animosity of Muslims toward the Jews for rejecting Muhammad as a prophet. Most unfortunately, this animosity is symbolized and played out in geography. The True Religion gets to control the holy shrines.

It doesn't help that religious Jews see Israel as divinely "theirs."

So Israel is stuck having to defend itself militarily, which leads to actions that are detrimental to the Palestinians who oppose them.

At least, that's how I see it.

Damn good post, Autodidact.

I agree, it's become a standoff of sorts. Neither side can back down and trust the other but, at the same time, neither side benefits from the status quo.

I'd love to see Israel become a truly secular nation with equal rights and access for everyone within its borders regardless of ethnicity or religion. But how do they make it that point without those within its borders working to destroy the country and a portion of the population?

As with most things, the vast majority of people want to live healthy, happy lives. It's the extremists on both sides that tend to create a situation where everyone suffers.
Palestinians should not be forced to live in ghettos and behind concertina wire fences. But at the same time, Israelis should not have to live in fear of suicide bombers and attacks from their neighbors.

And, at this point, I really don't think a two-state solution would be very effective. Even if the Palestinians and Israelis accept it and pledge to live peacefully beside one another, I seriously doubt the neighboring countries will embrace the idea with open arms.

 

[Enoughie]

I don't object to self-defense, but he said so much more.

You're probably right. I was just referring to that particular statement.

I think sometimes when people get over-emotional they say things and don't really think through what they've said.

It's a different issue when this is your POV when you're cool, calm, and collected.

Not all fundie Muslims are that way.

Perhaps not all support physical aggression, but they all certainly have imperialist tendencies, which are aggressive by nature.


_____________________
Natural Philosophy of Life - a simple, elegant, and powerful alternative to religious dogma

 

[arizol]

For your information I had ancestors in the Holocaust as well, and I don't need to use their suffering as an excuse for something like Zionism.

Im not using past Jewish suffering for zionism but i am 100% for Jews defending them selfs in any way or means available to them this time even by shedding blood if it is the only way possible because history showed us more then ones that when they come for Jews no body stands up to defend them so Jews should defend them selfs, I say it again even if it means shedding blood because history will only remember those who survive, no body will care who is right because winners get to wright history and trust me it always good to be on the winning side because no body remembers losers even if they are innocent.

 

[Bismillah]

Spot on arizol!

The IDF in their Merkavas have the God Given Right to kill those fourteen year old Palestinians who dare to throw rocks at them.

 

[Revoltingest]

All none Jews? have none Jews cared about Jewish lives? lets be realistic not all non Jews are Jew haters but a big amount of them are. Look at the amount of people who take the streets around the world screaming Jews go back to the ovens and all those who claim to be fare to Jews sit quietly and do not oppose them, why not? because you don't care? so fine don't but I do, Im not ready to sacrifice my life or any other Jewish life for those haters or do nothing non Jews who scream equality and when it comes to Jews they sit and do nothing, if they don't care I don't think should Jews care about them in order to survive.

I can't fathom your post.

 

[Revoltingest]

Perhaps not all support physical aggression, but they all certainly have imperialist tendencies, which are aggressive by nature.

I disagree.
While I see some troublesome aspects of Islam, I just know too many Muslims who don't support imperialism.

 

[gnomon]

Enoughie when you start making accusations against your opponent like calling them liars, a debate is pretty much done. If you can't at least be sensible in addressing my posts, I'm done.

This debate was done when you created the OP.

Hyperbolic crap posted as a topic for discussion does not turn into a informed debate.

Just as when I told you the situation of the creation of Israel was complex and you immediately responded with the Holocaust.

If that isn't trolling behavior I don't know what is.

You are hardly anyone with any character to bemoan someone calling you a liar when the best thing you offer up at any given time is exaggerated nonsense.

 

[Rainbow Mage]

Im not using past Jewish suffering for zionism but i am 100% for Jews defending them selfs in any way or means available to them this time even by shedding blood if it is the only way possible because history showed us more then ones that when they come for Jews no body stands up to defend them so Jews should defend them selfs, I say it again even if it means shedding blood because history will only remember those who survive, no body will care who is right because winners get to wright history and trust me it always good to be on the winning side because no body remembers losers even if they are innocent.

You can use a post like that to justify any evil. Sorry I don't buy it. Two wrongs don't make a right. To me it's not ok that we as Jews mistreat and stomp others into the dirt just because they did it to us. In fact, this is what keeps hate and violence going in the world.

 

[Rainbow Mage]

This debate was done when you created the OP.

Hyperbolic crap posted as a topic for discussion does not turn into a informed debate.

Just as when I told you the situation of the creation of Israel was complex and you immediately responded with the Holocaust.

If that isn't trolling behavior I don't know what is.

Do you are hardly anyone with any character to bemoan someone calling you a liar when the best thing you offer up at any given time is exaggerated nonsense.

Gnomon- Ignored

 

[Enoughie]

I disagree.
While I see some troublesome aspects of Islam, I just know too many Muslims who don't support imperialism.

But we're not talking about all Muslims here. I'm specifically referring to Islamic fundamentalists - who all support the spread of Islam, and making Islam the law of the land (Sharia) where Islam is predominant (ie. Islamic fascism/Imperialism)

_____________________
Natural Philosophy of Life - a simple, elegant, and powerful alternative to religious dogma

 

[Revoltingest]

But we're not talking about all Muslims here. I'm specifically referring to Islamic fundamentalists - who all support the spread of Islam, and making Islam the law of the land (Sharia) where Islam is predominant (ie. Islamic fascism/Imperialism)

No argument here.

 

[gnomon]

Gnomon- Ignored

Brilliant!

Now I know the tactic to get other people to ignore me.

Just tell them exactly what they are doing.

Huzzah!

 

[YmirGF]

This debate was done when you created the OP.

Hyperbolic crap posted as a topic for discussion does not turn into a informed debate.

Just as when I told you the situation of the creation of Israel was complex and you immediately responded with the Holocaust.

If that isn't trolling behavior I don't know what is.

You are hardly anyone with any character to bemoan someone calling you a liar when the best thing you offer up at any given time is exaggerated nonsense.

I really could not agree more, gnomon.
:clap:clap:clap:clap:clap:clap:clap

 

[Bismillah]

Hyperbolic crap posted as a topic for discussion does not turn into a informed debate.

Just as when I told you the situation of the creation of Israel was complex and you immediately responded with the Holocaust.

Maybe you could help transform this into a right and proper debate then?

 

[gnomon]

Maybe you could help transform this into a right and proper debate then?

You mean with a response like this:

Spot on arizol!

The IDF in their Merkavas have the God Given Right to kill those fourteen year old Palestinians who dare to throw rocks at them.

A response that wasn't even related to the persons post. A person who was clearly upset at the imbecilic and constant comparisons to Israel as a Nazi state.

Yeah, sure. I'll get right on that.

Too bad it looks like arizol was just banned. Looks like the wrong person was modded as a troll.

But if anyone wants to see the right and proper debate I only have to point to Enoughie's, Autodidact's and the posts of others who were bothering to provide an intelligent, sourced commentary on the creation of the state of Israel and the justification for it.

So there's the transformation from crap to a decent thread. It's this simple. When discussing the political/historical nature of Palestine, Israel and the Middle East don't go around saying "The Holocaust! The Holocaust! Genocide! Genocide!".

You are all very welcome.

 

[Autodidact]

I'm glad Abibi is here, though, jumping to the conclusion that he will be able to post from the "other" side, I'm guessing. Abibi, could you tell us where you think I may have gone wrong in sketching the history of the state of Israel, or what it should do now?

 

[Bismillah]

Patronizing Gnomon:

A response that wasn't even related to the persons post. A person who was clearly upset at the imbecilic and constant comparisons to Israel as a Nazi state.

Perhaps you should glance at the post above

Im not using past Jewish suffering for zionism but i am 100% for Jews defending them selfs in any way or means available to them this time even by shedding blood if it is the only way possible because history showed us more then ones that when they come for Jews no body stands up to defend them so Jews should defend them selfs

Yeah, sure. I'll get right on that.

I would appreciate it

Too bad it looks like arizol was just banned. Looks like the wrong person was modded as a troll.

I wouldn't know the science behind "modding" but telling a poster you'd like to twist their neck around is all advised as it is stupid.

But if anyone wants to see the right and proper debate I only have to point to Enoughie's, Autodidact's and the posts of others who were bothering to provide an intelligent, sourced commentary on the creation of the state of Israel and the justification for it.

ok then I would like to ask how are Israelis justified in their actions post independence. Issues that are of more importance and relevance like settlements, blockades, and occupations.

So there's the transformation from crap to a decent thread. It's this simple. When discussing the political/historical nature of Palestine, Israel and the Middle East don't go around saying "The Holocaust! The Holocaust! Genocide! Genocide!"

You are all very welcome.

I see, maybe you would like to add a post that "transforms" the thread .

 

[gnomon]

Patronizing Gnomon: .....

I did read the post. It didn't deserve your sarcasm which was so enlightening as to the topic of the thread of which you have no problem in turning around and accusing another of not adding to it's substance.

Face it. Senedjem could do no better than ignore the rational replies to his questions and harp on comparing Gaza to a concentration camp and by association Israel as Nazi state.

You don't have a problem with that?

Fine.

ok then I would like to ask how are Israelis justified in their actions post independence. Issues that are of more importance and relevance like settlements, blockades, and occupations.

Off topic and who cares.

We had enough of that from the creator of this dreadful thread.

Topic: How are Jews justified in creating the state of Israel?

Got any opinions about that?

Or is there more work I need to do for you? Need me to go create any special threads? Any Kumbaya BS?

You call me patronizing for pointing out something factual. That Senedjem was engaging in nothing more than flame baiting. I prefer to point it out in open forums rather than going behind people.

But please, throw heaps of incredibly enlightened scholarship on the thread and shut me up!

 

[Rainbow Mage]

ok then I would like to ask how are Israelis justified in their actions post independence. Issues that are of more importance and relevance like settlements, blockades, and occupations.

I would as well.