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How are Jews justified in creating the state of Israel?

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Enoughie

Active Member
Your answer are political, the problem is spiritual, anless you address that your answers are useless. You must see that religion only is the reason for the occupation of Palestine.
So I like to confuse you some more.

Even if religion is the only reason (and it really isn't). Religion is the reason for the "occupation" of Palestine both from the Muslim and Jewish side. So that does very little to address the situation here.

_____________________
Natural Philosophy of Life - a simple, elegant, and powerful alternative to religious dogma
 

Caladan

Agnostic Pantheist
Your comments show such utter ignorance of the conflict in the Middle East that I'm not surprised that its still raging on.
Amen to that. I'm sometimes at awe by the ignorance of some people in an era which is so ultra-futuristic on so many levels. it makes me understand that our ancestors, while not having powerful computers and a broadband internet access, and instead had the skin of a gazelle to use as a scroll and ink to write the information, sometimes had such a brilliant way to communicate social and political ideas, that make billions of terabytes of internet space seem completely wasted.
 

Rainbow Mage

Lib Democrat/Agnostic/Epicurean-ish/Buddhist-ish
I don't care about Israel either way, even though I don't agree with it's actions. I just wish my government would cut the parasite off of our backs.
 

Enoughie

Active Member
Amen to that. I'm sometimes at awe by the ignorance of some people in an era which is so ultra-futuristic on so many levels. it makes me understand that our ancestors, while not having powerful computers and a broadband internet access, and instead had the skin of a gazelle to use as a scroll and ink to write the information, sometimes had such a brilliant way to communicate social and political ideas, that make billions of terabytes of internet space seem completely wasted.

It's a fairly interesting phenomenon that despite having access to endless information, many people who go online still choose to ignore all the facts and follow conspiracy theories, or all sorts of superstition.

I think it has a lot to do with human psychology in combination with poor education (people prefer to confirm their ignorance instead of actually seeking the truth). But I doubt it's a new phenomenon. I think it's a trend that always existed in humans throughout the ages, but it's only one becoming more evident as more people can freely express their thoughts and beliefs to wide audiences.

_____________________
Natural Philosophy of Life - a simple, elegant, and powerful alternative to religious dogma
 

Autodidact

Intentionally Blank
More than 60 years have past and there is no peace for the Jews. Why? It is because they are out of the will of God.

Hold on, RF, do you realize how lucky we are? We have a member who knows the will of God. How cool is that? So free spirit, does this only work in retrospect, or can you tell the will of God into the future?
 

Enoughie

Active Member
Meaning stop sending funds to Israel when we're in a financial hole ourselves. Israel is a parasite draining the life out of America.

We spend about $100 billion every year on maintaining U.S. bases throughout the world - in over 100 countries. Out of the $3 billion we give to Israel 75% goes right back to America (to the military-industrial complex). The rest goes to all sorts of military research (for example Israel invented the unmanned aerial vehicles [UAV] that we use so successfully in our wars). So at least the money is not entirely wasted, like in the case of maintaining our bases.

I also think that we should drastically cut down on military expenditure, because the way we currently do it really harms our national security in the long run. But at the same time, at least we don't have a base in Israel to maintain, and Israel's location is very important for us strategically, so it would be really dumb to sacrifice such an important ally for no apparent reason

At the same time we give billions in military aid to countries like Egypt, that help us very little. So I don't see why Israel is so central to your "cost cutting" strategy, especially when it would be extremely counter-productive for us to cut Israel.

_____________________
Natural Philosophy of Life - a simple, elegant, and powerful alternative to religious dogma
 

Autodidact

Intentionally Blank
Judaism is a religion, and like many other religions has suffered persecutions, mostly because they did not comform to the custom of those societies; today Israel is doing the same to the Arabs living in Israel. hypocricy is rife expecially in Israel.

So Jews deserved and provoked the centuries of persecution we experienced in Europe? Including those Jews who assimilated completely into their countries of birth?
 

Autodidact

Intentionally Blank
You do not believe that God has given the Jews that land: So why are the Jews there?
Why are you where you are? They went there to build a country where they could live without fear of persecution.
It would have been more acceptable if the UN had given the Jews one state that was part of USA, they have over 50 states they would have not missed one of them. Plus they would have been placed among friends, so why the jews did not ask for that.
Sorry: but I see the Jews notion of the missinterpreted will of God.
To dispossess the Palestinians was an act laking natural justice and to fix a wrong with a wrong is beyond comprehension. You say the jews have peace! enjoy while you have it.
What is that, a threat? Ooh, the nation of Israel is quaking in its borders; free spirit is on his way. Watch out, Israel!
 

fallingblood

Agnostic Theist
Sure, maybe you can explain how modern day genocide is far more complex then it actually is

You don't want an actual answer. You want to just once more push your anti-Zionism. That is all that this thread is for you. We've seen it over and over again. If you aren't willing to finally look at the facts, which have been presented to you in various threads about this same subject, or look at the history, then there is no need to try to explain anything to you.

At some point, you need to just drop the anti-Zionism propaganda and hatred, and do some research.
 

Enoughie

Active Member
Hold on, RF, do you realize how lucky we are? We have a member who knows the will of God. How cool is that? So free spirit, does this only work in retrospect, or can you tell the will of God into the future?

I think we have more than one member claiming to know the will of God. It's commonly called being religious.

_____________________
Natural Philosophy of Life - a simple, elegant, and powerful alternative to religious dogma
 

Sunstone

De Diablo Del Fora
Premium Member
I'm not sure how you can be said to deserve a territory simply because you have been persecuted. So far as I can see, no nation has ever deserved it's territory. Rather, it took its territory. It seized it. And that's pretty much what has been the case through out known history.
 

Enoughie

Active Member
I'm not sure how you can be said to deserve a territory simply because you have been persecuted. So far as I can see, no nation has ever deserved it's territory. Rather, it took its territory. It seized it. And that's pretty much what has been the case through out known history.

As I wrote in my first response here (http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/2299240-post2.html), Zionist Jews didn't "deserve" a territory because they were persecuted. They were looking for a homeland to call their own because of it. And they decided to buy territories and establish a homeland in their historic land in Palestine (with the approval of the power that had control over that land at the time - Britain).

I'm not sure what "deserving a territory" means. The only question is how you go about trying to get a territory. The Zionists decided to get a territory by buying it, and by receiving international recognition. It didn't quite work the way they intended.

_____________________
Natural Philosophy of Life - a simple, elegant, and powerful alternative to religious dogma
 

Autodidact

Intentionally Blank
You don't want an actual answer. You want to just once more push your anti-Zionism. That is all that this thread is for you. We've seen it over and over again. If you aren't willing to finally look at the facts, which have been presented to you in various threads about this same subject, or look at the history, then there is no need to try to explain anything to you.

At some point, you need to just drop the anti-Zionism propaganda and hatred, and do some research.

Yes, I think there's a legitimate argument to be made that creating Israel was not the way to go or even not justified, but this one isn't fact-based. You'd be more effective if you learned some history, Senedjem.
 

Autodidact

Intentionally Blank
I'm not sure how you can be said to deserve a territory simply because you have been persecuted. So far as I can see, no nation has ever deserved it's territory. Rather, it took its territory. It seized it. And that's pretty much what has been the case through out known history.

Yes, but that's not quite what happened in Israel. It was much more complicated than that.
 

Autodidact

Intentionally Blank
Well, as you might have gathered: I'm no expert on Israel -- especially its history.

simplified thumbnail:

Well, roughly, the Jews didn't conquer it. Britain did. Jews immigrated there, legally, and were contributing to positive progress, not only in agriculture, but in instituting democratic institutions and even universities. Arabs rioted over the number of Jews that Britain was allowing in. I don't think this is controversial, and (I think) Arabs and anti-Zionists would agree that Arabs started the violence with these riots. All of this increased as Jews poured in to escape German persecution during the 30's. Palestinian Arabs revolted against the British, but because of Jewish immigration. The British throttled the revolt brutally. In response to the revolt, the British limited Jewish immigration, just when Hitler's holocaust made it more necessary for more Jews to immigrate, and increasing the number of Jewish victims of the holocaust.

When the U.N. committee came in to investigate and make recommendations, the Jews cooperated; the Arabs boycotted. The U.N. recommended two states be created; one Arab and one Jewish. (If this sounds familiar, this is the same solution being discussed today. That's right, had the Arabs accepted the U.N. recommendation, the last 60 years of war could have been avoided, and the Palestinians would have a state today.) Unfortunately, the Arabs declared that if there was any Jewish state, however small, they would fight against it, and they did, attacking immediately. Palestinian Arabs fled to neighboring states by the tens of thousands, where they are still refugees today. Basically--short version--Israel won and established its borders. Jews poured in from all over the world.

Here is a map of the proposed U.N. partition that the Arabs rejected:

palestinepartitionplan47ss.gif


Then there was the Suez crisis, leading to the Sinai war an interesting side-light in the 50's. It would be fair to say that Israel attacked Egypt, in response to Egypt nationalizing the Suez canal. Israel and its allies won, but gave the canal and most of the territory back in response to U.S. and Soviet pressure.

Arab countries have attacked Israel twice since then. Both times Israel fought back and won, increasing Israeli territory, which really just makes things worse and more complicated.

After that it just gets messier and more complicated every decade.

The relationship between Jordan and the Palestinians is also complicated and important.

Also the Israeli settlement movement, in my view, makes peace almost impossible, because the direction of peace would be for Israel to give back the land it conquered, but how can you give back land when you have these passionate citizens living on it?

At least, that's how I understand it, and now everyone can tell me how I'm wrong.
 
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