How are the Titles, ‘Father’, and ‘Son’, defined in the scriptures - in relation to Spirit and Flesh

[TrueBeliever37]

I believe then that you are talking about the real Trinity and not a church recognized one that strays from the truth.

However by the definition of person as having a personality, then God fits that definition and all three members of the Trinity are one person by that definition. However each member of the Trinity is a different kind of person. Jesus is the kind of person that has a human body. The Paraclete is a person expressed in millions of people.

Muffled there is no Trinity period. There is only one God, and that one God is a Spirit. When the time was right, he made himself a fleshly body to dwell in, and shed blood for our sins. He called the body his Son because the Spirit was the Father of that body. But it wasn't another person. It was the one and only God himself, here on earth.

The Trinity is a belief that there are three different persons in the Godhead. That's much different than there being an eternal Spirit that is called the Father. And then later in time, the Spirit takes on a fleshly body to sacrifice for sins, and calls that body the Son. Then later he manifests himself as the Holy Spirit in his people.

 

[DNB]

I believe I have explained it very well. The Spirit in Jesus is God, the flesh of Jesus is not God.

The spirit of God is transcendent, infinite and omnipresent - your explanation was implausible and absurd. ...only, unless you are saying that all Christians may be endowed with the Holy Spirit, which is a gift from God, not something that we refer to as 'God Himself'.

 

[TrueBeliever37]

The spirit of God is transcendent, infinite and omnipresent - your explanation was implausible and absurd. ...only, unless you are saying that all Christians may be endowed with the Holy Spirit, which is a gift from God, not something that we refer to as 'God Himself'.

The Holy Spirit IS God. God had foretold he would dwell in his people. Joel 2:28-29 Acts 2:17-19 There is only one God. God is a Spirit. John 4:24 There is only one Spirit. Ephesians 4:4 God is a Spirit and he is holy. The one God took on a body to shed blood for our sins. The Messiah was that one and only God, not another person in the Godhead. John 20:28-29

 

[DNB]

The Holy Spirit IS God. God had foretold he would dwell in his people. Joel 2:28-29 Acts 2:17-19 There is only one God. God is a Spirit. John 4:24 There is only one Spirit. Ephesians 4:4 God is a Spirit and he is holy. The one God took on a body to shed blood for our sins. The Messiah was that one and only God, not another person in the Godhead. John 20:28-29

Ok, gotcha. ...no, only the Father is God! There are no other deities or divine beings, or persons or modes, in the entire universe other than Him.

 

[JerryMyers]

Revelation 1:17-18 refutes your false narrative.

Revelation 1:17-18 also refuted the narratives of the Synoptic Gospels of Mark, Luke and Matthew. You are NOT going to find anywhere in the Synoptic Gospels quoting Jesus as saying he was the first and the last (as in Rev 1:17) or said/implied he resurrected after he was dead (as in Rev 1:18).

So, are you now going to say the Synoptic Gospels are all ridiculous and false too because they did not say what Revelation 1:17-18 is saying??

I'm not going to waste any more time on such a Ridiculous Post

Yeah, yeah, yeah, as I said before, the typical response from someone who is unable to refute, logically and rationally, the arguments of the other party.….AND, as expected, you STILL have NOT shown me the verse(s) in your own Bible that clearly said or even implied Jesus was showing the crucifixion wound marks to his disciples – why is that ??

 

[oldbadger]

I will suggest that ‘Father’ means exactly what it sounds like and how we use it today, taking all things in their relevant context:

1. ‘He who brings something into being’
2. ‘He who gives life to something’
3. ‘He who is the head of a grouping (of like or unlike entities)

We know that God, the Father: Yahweh, is the CREATOR (1.):

• “In the beginning GOD CREATED the heavens and the earth...” (Gen 1:1)

It was GOD who GAVE LIFE by the spirit to all of living creation:

• “Then the LORD God formed a man from the dust of the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and the man became a LIVING being.” (Gen 2:7)
• “But I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the HEAD of Christ is God.” (1 Cor 11:3)

And, by the above, a SON is:

1. ‘One who perfectly carries out the work the FATHER gives him to do’
2. He is an IMAGE of his ‘Father’ (He reflects, exactly, the personality and righteous properties of the Father)
3. A ‘Son in Spirit’ is an adopted ‘Son’ and not a direct procreation of the ‘Father’
4. A ‘Son in the flesh’ is a direct procreation through a wife (ideally!)
5. A faithful, dutiful, and honored Son (of any sort) is HEIR to the Father

Jesus Christ is ‘Son of God’ (3.) by adoption:

• “In the same way, Christ did not take on himself the glory of becoming a high priest. But God said to him, "You are my Son; today I have become your Father." (Hebrews 5:5)

Luke 3:38 states that the first man, Adam, was ‘SON OF GOD’. This is evidently relating to the time before Adam sinned. Clearly, since Adam was CREATED sinless, Holy, and Righteous, - Image of God (2.), he would have been a true ‘Son in spirit’ (3.) to almighty God: the Father.
Jesus is ‘Son’ by duty (1.).

• “what about the one whom the Father set apart as his very own and sent into the world? Why then do you accuse me of blasphemy because I said, 'I am God's Son'? Do not believe me unless I do the works of my Father. But if I do them, even though you do not believe me, believe the works, that you may know and understand that the Father is in me, and I in the Father." (John 10:36-38)

In these verse (and prior) Jesus, whom the Jews accuse of ‘calling himself GOD’ (clearly errant and sounds ridiculous in light of...) Jesus ASSERTS that saying that God is his Father did not make him GOD also (I know Trinitarians argue the opposite but it is what JESUS HIMSELF SAID!) In fact, he had said only that he was ‘The Son of God’... (implied) and since God is his FATHER ...and GOD is SPIRIT... there should be no doubt he meant ‘Son in Spirit’ (3.). But, moreover, Jesus DEFINED what it is to be ‘Son’ saying that he was ‘Doing the works of the Father’... Clearly, whether ‘Son in Spirit’ (3.) or ‘Son in Flesh’ (4.), doing the perfect works perfectly of HIM who set the works for you, is a being a ‘SON’, reflecting the ideals of the Father.
He was born, Son of a woman, FATHERED by the Holy Spirit OF THE FATHER, sinless, Holy, and Righteous. Here, since there was no human Father there was no PROCREATION, and therefore Jesus was a CREATION MEANS of GOD’s Holy Spirit, just the same as the first man, Adam (Hence Jesus is called, ‘the Last Adam’ - No other direct human creation will ever again take place!:

• ‘By the sin of [the first created MAN, Adam] death came to all mankind... by the death of [the last created MAN, Jesus] Sin has been destroyed’ (paraphrased)

Both Adam (before sinning) and Jesus Christ (eternally) are examples of perfect ‘Sons in Spirit’.

We can read also that Jesus elsewhere called certain of the errant Jews, ‘Sons of your Father’ - meaning, ‘Sons of Satan’... clearly Satan did not procreated these errant Jews but rather, they were ‘Doing the wrongful works of Satan; the Father of the lie’.

Paul, the apostle, ADOPTED the runaway slave, Onesimus, (Philemon 1) as his ‘Son’ because Onesimus so perfectly carried out the work (1.) of delivering the teachings of Paul to the distributed christians while Paul was ‘in prison in chains’.

So, your thoughts please to add to the above. Thanks.

How are the Titles, ‘Father’, and ‘Son’, defined in the scriptures

Oh Soapy!
All that writing, spun in to such a mess.

And you didn't write all the necessary words in your Title. There are more than two, there are four.

All Jews were children of their God, and so Jesus was also a son-of-God as well.
But Apostle John needed to elevate Jesus up to Son-of-God, just as he needed to elevate the miracles of Jesus above demon-casting etc.
All Jews had a father, but the God of the Jews was their Father.

.....all that spin........

 

[oldbadger]

Hello All...
————————————————————
No matter what your views

Please can you include some reference of link to the relationship of FATHER and SON according to the Christian scriptures.

Please - No TRINITY DOCTRINE
————————————————————

I already have, Soapy, in about five sentences.
There is also the term 'son of man' which Jesus uses quite a lot in the synoptics.

To Jews this term meant something like 'this bloke here' or 'yours truly', but Christians overlooked the fact that Jesus was just a Northern Jewish peasant and so spun that term up, somewhat.

 

[TrueBeliever37]

Revelation 1:17-18 also refuted the narratives of the Synoptic Gospels of Mark, Luke and Matthew. You are NOT going to find anywhere in the Synoptic Gospels quoting Jesus as saying he was the first and the last (as in Rev 1:17) or said/implied he resurrected after he was dead (as in Rev 1:18).

So, are you now going to say the Synoptic Gospels are all ridiculous and false too because they did not say what Revelation 1:17-18 is saying??


Yeah, yeah, yeah, as I said before, the typical response from someone who is unable to refute, logically and rationally, the arguments of the other party.….AND, as expected, you STILL have NOT shown me the verse(s) in your own Bible that clearly said or even implied Jesus was showing the crucifixion wound marks to his disciples – why is that ??

First you were unwilling to accept it unless I showed a verse in the Bible where the Messiah himself said it. Then when I did you still don't accept it. Now it's not in the right book for you. How about Matthew 26:2? (Just admit you don't believe him no matter where the verse is at.)

Read John 20:25 to see what Thomas wanted to see before he would believe. Based on that what would he be showing Thomas? Use some of that logic you are telling me about.

 

[TrueBeliever37]

Ok, gotcha. ...no, only the Father is God! There are no other deities or divine beings, or persons or modes, in the entire universe other than Him.

But guess what - If you knew him, you knew the Father, and when you saw him you saw the Father. John 14:7-9 And when someone hated him, they hated the Father also. John 15:23

The Father is the first and the last. Isaiah 44:6 OH but wait, the Messiah said he was the first and the last. Revelation 22:13

The Father is the Alpha and Omega. OH but wait, the Messiah said he was the Alpha and Omega. Revelation 22:13

The Father said I am He. Isaiah 48:12 OH but wait, the Messiah said unless you believe that I am he, you shall die in your sins. John 8:24

The voice in the wilderness was to prepare the way for YHWH (the Father). Isaiah 40:3 OH but wait, John the Baptist (the voice in the wilderness) prepared the way for the Messiah. Matthew 3:3

In Revelation 20:11-12 the dead were standing before the throne of God being judged. OH but wait, the scripture said we will all stand before the judgement seat of the Messiah to be judged.

God raised up the body of the Messiah. OH but wait the Messiah said he would do that himself. John 2:19

The Father will send the Holy Spirit. John 14:26 OH but wait, the Messiah said he would send the Holy Spirit. John 15:26

Wonder why all that is!

 

[DNB]

But guess what - If you knew him, you knew the Father, and when you saw him you saw the Father. John 14:7-9 And when someone hated him, they hated the Father also. John 15:23

The Father is the first and the last. Isaiah 44:6 OH but wait, the Messiah said he was the first and the last. Revelation 22:13

The Father is the Alpha and Omega. OH but wait, the Messiah said he was the Alpha and Omega. Revelation 22:13

The Father said I am He. Isaiah 48:12 OH but wait, the Messiah said unless you believe that I am he, you shall die in your sins. John 8:24

The voice in the wilderness was to prepare the way for YHWH (the Father). Isaiah 40:3 OH but wait, John the Baptist (the voice in the wilderness) prepared the way for the Messiah. Matthew 3:3

In Revelation 20:11-12 the dead were standing before the throne of God being judged. OH but wait, the scripture said we will all stand before the judgement seat of the Messiah to be judged.

God raised up the body of the Messiah. OH but wait the Messiah said he would do that himself. John 2:19

The Father will send the Holy Spirit. John 14:26 OH but wait, the Messiah said he would send the Holy Spirit. John 15:26

Wonder why all that is!

Wonder why you eisegeted every text that you cited, appeared entirely oblivious to context, and with all your efforts to find proof-text, you couldn't find anywhere the expression 'God the Son' or 'Jesus is God', ...or 'Jesus the Father' as you seem to be espousing.
I wonder why that is?

 

[TrueBeliever37]

Wonder why you eisegeted every text that you cited, appeared entirely oblivious to context, and with all your efforts to find proof-text, you couldn't find anywhere the expression 'God the Son' or 'Jesus is God', ...or 'Jesus the Father' as you seem to be espousing.
I wonder why that is?

There are none so blind as those who choose not to see.

I found the expression - If you have SEEN me, you have SEEN the Father.

I found the expression by Thomas - My Lord and My GOD

I have found the expression - feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.

I have found the expression - But unto the Son he saith, thy throne, O God is for ever and ever.

I have found the prophecy - unto us a son is given:...The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

NOT a trinity mind you. The Spirit is the Father (GOD), and the flesh (the body) is the Son.

 

[DNB]

There are none so blind as those who choose not to see.

I found the expression - If you have SEEN me, you have SEEN the Father.

I found the expression by Thomas - My Lord and My GOD

I have found the expression - feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.

I have found the expression - But unto the Son he saith, thy throne, O God is for ever and ever.

I have found the prophecy - unto us a son is given:...The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

NOT a trinity mind you. The Spirit is the Father (GOD), and the flesh (the body) is the Son.

Your whole thesis is based on inference. You, again, are not taking context into account.

If you have SEEN me, you have SEEN the Father. - the son is not the Father, you need to reinterpret this
My Lord and My GOD - in a culture where men are called gods, this does not necessitate divinity
feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood. - The Father did not die on the cross, even though He is God. you need to reinterpret this.
But unto the Son he saith, thy throne, O God is for ever and ever. - in a culture where men are called gods, and that the next verse shows the subordination of this first god (You have loved righteousness and hated wickedness; therefore god, Your God, has anointed You above Your companions with the oil of joy.”)
The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace. - Well, which is it, it is the son or the Father spoken of here? The son is not the Father, therefore you need to reinterpret this.

 

[JerryMyers]

First you were unwilling to accept it unless I showed a verse in the Bible where the Messiah himself said it. Then when I did you still don't accept it.

You are really delusional, aren’t you?? Am I unwilling to accept Jesus’ true words???
Truth is - I am NOT willing to accept YOUR misinterpretation and/or misunderstanding of what Jesus REALLY said!

How about Matthew 26:2? (Just admit you don't believe him no matter where the verse is at.)

What about Matthew 26:2 ?? You think Jesus was NOT aware of the Jews’ intention to falsely put him on trial, falsely find him guilty and sentence him to death, which by the law of that time, was death by crucifixion??? So, why would Jesus NOT say “and the Son of man is betrayed to be crucified” as in Matt.26:2 ??? And what so odd about Jesus expecting himself to be killed when he was fully aware of the Jews’ intention to kill him?? Or let me guess – you are convinced Jesus knew nothing of the Jews’ intention to kill him, so, Jesus was not expecting himself to be killed – was that it ?? Well, you will be wrong to think so, as your own scripture implied Jesus was fully aware of the Jews' intention to kill him, and because he was fully aware of the Jews' intention to kill him, he, therefore, expected to be killed….unless of course, you can show me a passage from your own scripture that implied Jesus was not aware of the Jews' intention to kill him.

As I said before if you want to know whether Jesus was really crucified or not, read and understand what Jesus said AFTER the supposed crucifixion, NOT BEFORE.

Read John 20:25 to see what Thomas wanted to see before he would believe. Based on that what would he be showing Thomas? Use some of that logic you are telling me about.

How logical is your thinking ??! Let’s see - most, if not all, Republicans and Trump’s supporters wanted to see Trump wins in the last presidential election, BUT, that does NOT mean what they WANTED to see is what they WILL see or will happen as history has proven and shown us. Nobody, in their rational mind, will say, “based on what Trump’s supporters WANTED to see, why would Trump NOT win?’ – are you kidding me ??! Do you have a mind of a 2 years old kid or what???!

Likewise, what Thomas WANTED to see does NOT mean that’s what Thomas WILL see… so, again, show me the verse(s) in your own Bible that clearly said or even implied Jesus was showing the crucifixion wound marks to his disciples. Why don’t you just admit that your blasphemous belief and your responses are just based on conjectures, assumptions, and misunderstanding/misinterpretation of the scripture and Jesus’ true words.

 

[Soapy]

How are the Titles, ‘Father’, and ‘Son’, defined in the scriptures

Oh Soapy!
All that writing, spun in to such a mess.

And you didn't write all the necessary words in your Title. There are more than two, there are four.

All Jews were children of their God, and so Jesus was also a son-of-God as well.
But Apostle John needed to elevate Jesus up to Son-of-God, just as he needed to elevate the miracles of Jesus above demon-casting etc.
All Jews had a father, but the God of the Jews was their Father.

.....all that spin........

There was not an ounce of sense in what you just said.

Evdn after I defined to you what ‘Son’ means, you still go on to refute the truth.

‘Son’ means, ‘He who does the works of the Father’. Yet you say that all Jews are ‘Sons’ of God.

So you are saying that all Jews are doing the works of God???

No! Only Jesus Christ was (is still) doing the works of God, of the Father. But scriptures tells us that in time to come others who hold to the truth will (although not perfected as God would like - but as Jesus allows) will become ‘Sons of God’ through adoption’.

Therefore, it is right that at this time Jesus Christ is the only begotten Son of God. ‘Begotten’ meaning ‘Adopted’, as in Psslm 2:

‘2The kings of the earth rise up and the rulers band together against the Lord and against his anointed, saying,​

3“Let us break their chains and throw off their shackles.”​

4The One enthroned in heaven laughs; the Lord scoffs at them.​

5He rebukes them in his anger and terrifies them in his wrath, saying,​

6“I have installed my king on Zion, my holy mountain.”​

7I will proclaim the Lord’s decree: He said to me, “You are my son; today I have become your father.​

8Ask me, and I will make the nations your inheritance, the ends of the earth your possession.​

9You will break them with a rod of iron b; you will dash them to pieces like pottery.”​

10Therefore, you kings, be wise; be warned, you rulers of the earth.​

11Serve the Lord with fear and celebrate his rule with trembling.​

12Kiss his son, or he will be angry and your way will lead to your destruction, for his wrath can flare up in a moment. Blessed are all who take refuge in him.”​

These verses speak of David but also a prophesy of the messiah. Verse 7 speaks of an adoption of one whom becomes a Son to the Father, and the one whom becomes a Father to the other. It’s clear to see that the Father is ‘The one enthroned in Heaven’ (God) and the other is the adopted (Jesus).

‘Kiss the Son’… pay homage: Bow the knee, Praise, Glorify; Honor him!

….THIS IS NOT WORSHIP….

Nowhere in scriptures is anyone commanded to WORSHIP the Son.

 

[rational experiences]

Fact. Humans living.

Humans theorising about when the planet formed naturally in space. Stone a planet released its gases to form a heaven.

The thoughts human men's agreed thoughts.

A human thinking as a human about any chosen topic.

Theorising looking back claiming you know.

Information in status pre exists. A human says it's presence is information hence it advises the thinker.

Form once never existed and evolution allowed held form as it cooled.

A statement once form never existed only non physical states existed.

Advice.

A heavens involves the planet..
Not any human.

Light due to a sun blasting....not any human.

A humans father is sexual as a man as an adult not a father exists first.

A father is human denoted by sex with a human female. Conceived human baby.

Statements by a human.

Is a human father owner of substance before a son?

Yes.

Is a human mother not of any man or father human? Yes.

Female form only.
So a human would quote a son man baby not female magically was conceived by a not man body. A creator.

Humans create beyond their owned forms as a self by two. Human.

When you do a true self assessment without any need to use infer human egotism of I know everything.

 

[rational experiences]

If you claim once clouds existed by mountain volcano law. Natural spirit released into space womb.

The heavens.

The false symbol the body. Father sex in the heavens as a science statement. Symbolic only.

Reasoning a volcano was a O body then it had∆ an earth erection.

Theist a man human.

Said as a scientist brother I sacrificed my own spirit. A man and my brother. As you caused it and witnessed it.

So you quote the father's angels body clouds were sacrificed. A body was removed. Then gases the spirit re arose out of stone. Water mass was split off the ground it was reformed.

The life and body spirit cloud.

Father cloud loses body mass then gets it put back. Symbolic. A story is told representing symbolism itself.

No story no reasoning about clouds in the first instance.

Man science life is the real man who gets attacked.

Reminder his image now in the clouds as he caused it.

Living condition without cloud mass gas burning would kill us as fallout. Clouds keep us safe. Human life was saved by cloud re formation. Cloud body mass returned.

A teaching of relativity in science.

 

[oldbadger]

There was not an ounce of sense in what you just said.

Evdn after I defined to you what ‘Son’ means, you still go on to refute the truth.

Soapy, I cannot agree with you.

I just have a different view of the gospels from you, i

 

[Soapy]

Soapy, I cannot agree with you.

I just have a different view of the gospels from you, i

Even a different view must carry sense and truth in it if it is to be considered credible.

Do you agree?

We all believe that God is ONE ONLY GOD… our ONLY GOD.

Do we agree that the Father is God?

Please say why you agree if you do!

For me, the term, ‘Father’, means, ‘Creator’, ‘He who gives life’, ‘He who brings into being [that which was not already in being]’, ‘The Head’.

Would you agree with the definition of ‘Father’?

Yet, For instance, trinity belief is that ‘Jesus was GOD, and SON OF GOD, and was WITH GOD, and was MAN’. But Jesus IS NOT CALLED ‘FATHER’!!

YET, trinity claims (variously) BOTH that JESUS is the CREATOR… and that ‘The Father CREATED through Jesus’!!

Is that credible?

Isn’t this an example of ‘fixing’ a belief?

When it is shown that Jesus COULD NOT HAVE BEEN THE CREATOR trinitarians MODIFY their belief to claim it was THROUGH the Father. By this, they create a conundrum to which there is no solution. So they knuckle down on both claims at the same time knowing that both cannot be true.

Not only that but scriptures, through Jesus himself, says that the Son cannot do anything that he doesn’t first see the Father do. SO… how did the Son CREATE ALL THINGS if he had to FIRST SEE THE FATHER create… isn’t it evident that the Son then could not have created ‘all things!’?

And isn’t it evident that the Son not being called ‘Father’ shows the Son is NOT the Creator?

See, it is fine to have your own opinion… sure, … But if you are going to dispute with another then you must give credence to the fallacy of your own favourite nonsense WHEN YOU ARE SHOWN CREDIBLE reasoning.

The above example only shows the fallacy of the trinity claim. It doesn’t, though, give a reasoning in an alternative … I did that purposely so that the reader can research and develop their own alternative rendering of what the scriptures says.

I defined the term, ‘Son’, not as ‘procreated offspring’ because that is a fleshly view - Something I find Trinitarians always go towards when I ask them to define ‘Son’.

However, a TRUE SON is not EXPLICITLY a procreation in the SPIRITUAL SENSE OF DEFINITION. This is because the scriptures also defines SONS in Spirit: The Holy Angels are ‘SONS OF GOD’ and they certainly are not ‘procreated’!

Therefore there must be another definition. And that is what I asked… and what Trinitarians try their utmost NOT TO ANSWER by PRETENDING they didn’t understand what I was asking but really, knowing that the truthful answer would undermine their fallacious belief.

Point of order: Jesus himself defined what a ‘Son’ is when he stated that he was ‘Doing the works of the Father’.

And scriptures says that ‘All who are led by the Spirit [of God] are ‘Sons of God’. But we know that currently only Jesus Christ fits that description, hence he is the ‘Only Son of God’.

So, again, the definition of ‘Son’ is; ‘He who carries out the works of the Father’… he who carries out the works of God is a SON OF GOD. And, of course, all holy angels are Spirit Sons of God because all holy angels carry out only the world of God, their creator.

Do you agree? If not, please say why!

 

[oldbadger]

Do you agree? If not, please say why!

Soapy.
I do not agree because the deposition of Mark tells me the right story, and not your version.
I am a Deist as well.

 

[Soapy]

Soapy.
I do not agree because the deposition of Mark tells me the right story, and not your version.
I am a Deist as well.

Please, What does ‘Deposition of Mark’, mean?

Please, too, What is a ‘Deist’?

Could you not have responded more fully to my questions to you?