How are the Titles, ‘Father’, and ‘Son’, defined in the scriptures - in relation to Spirit and Flesh

[Muffled]

Muffled there is no Trinity period. There is only one God, and that one God is a Spirit. When the time was right, he made himself a fleshly body to dwell in, and shed blood for our sins. He called the body his Son because the Spirit was the Father of that body. But it wasn't another person. It was the one and only God himself, here on earth.

The Trinity is a belief that there are three different persons in the Godhead. That's much different than there being an eternal Spirit that is called the Father. And then later in time, the Spirit takes on a fleshly body to sacrifice for sins, and calls that body the Son. Then later he manifests himself as the Holy Spirit in his people.

I believe the Trinity is in the Bible.

I believe that is correct.

I believe we recognize a living human being as a person. The Father does not have that so for that reason He is a different type of person ie One who has personality. However Jesus is two persons as are all of us, the physical person and the spiritual person. The Spirit in Jesus is one with the Father.

I believe that is not the Trinity but is the Doctrine of the Trinity and you are right it is in error.

 

[Muffled]

The spirit of God is transcendent, infinite and omnipresent - your explanation was implausible and absurd. ...only, unless you are saying that all Christians may be endowed with the Holy Spirit, which is a gift from God, not something that we refer to as 'God Himself'.

'
I believe that is easy to say but hard to prove. I feel confident that you can't.

I believe I would not say that. I would say that all born-again Christians are endowed with the Spirit of God.

I believe God is fully capable of giving Himself. That is what Jesus is telling us in John 14.

 

[DNB]

'
I believe that is easy to say but hard to prove. I feel confident that you can't.

I believe I would not say that. I would say that all born-again Christians are endowed with the Spirit of God.

I believe God is fully capable of giving Himself. That is what Jesus is telling us in John 14.

Yes, that is exactly what, not only Jesus but the epistles also, clearly teach. ...but, only as a promise, not as a obligatory gift. You've obviously heard of the different baptisms, where one can be saved without receiving the spirit. This is the case of the landslide majority of Christians - it's actually shameful when they start declaring their endowment of God's spirit, but act as faithless and misguided, and exegetically unsound, as can be.
So, no, I have yet to see a truly edified Christian, or any one with the same power that was evidenced during the 1st century Church.

 

[TrueBeliever37]

Your whole thesis is based on inference. You, again, are not taking context into account.

If you have SEEN me, you have SEEN the Father. - the son is not the Father, you need to reinterpret this
My Lord and My GOD - in a culture where men are called gods, this does not necessitate divinity
feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood. - The Father did not die on the cross, even though He is God. you need to reinterpret this.
But unto the Son he saith, thy throne, O God is for ever and ever. - in a culture where men are called gods, and that the next verse shows the subordination of this first god (You have loved righteousness and hated wickedness; therefore god, Your God, has anointed You above Your companions with the oil of joy.”)
The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace. - Well, which is it, it is the son or the Father spoken of here? The son is not the Father, therefore you need to reinterpret this.

I think you need to take context into account yourself. i.e. - He was standing there being asked by them to show them the Father. What was his reply? - That he had been with them all this time and they still don't know him. If you have SEEN me you have SEEN the Father.

No matter what you are presented with, you try to find some way to negate what it says. Thomas called him his God - plain and simple.

 

[TrueBeliever37]

You are really delusional, aren’t you?? Am I unwilling to accept Jesus’ true words???
Truth is - I am NOT willing to accept YOUR misinterpretation and/or misunderstanding of what Jesus REALLY said!


What about Matthew 26:2 ?? You think Jesus was NOT aware of the Jews’ intention to falsely put him on trial, falsely find him guilty and sentence him to death, which by the law of that time, was death by crucifixion??? So, why would Jesus NOT say “and the Son of man is betrayed to be crucified” as in Matt.26:2 ??? And what so odd about Jesus expecting himself to be killed when he was fully aware of the Jews’ intention to kill him?? Or let me guess – you are convinced Jesus knew nothing of the Jews’ intention to kill him, so, Jesus was not expecting himself to be killed – was that it ?? Well, you will be wrong to think so, as your own scripture implied Jesus was fully aware of the Jews' intention to kill him, and because he was fully aware of the Jews' intention to kill him, he, therefore, expected to be killed….unless of course, you can show me a passage from your own scripture that implied Jesus was not aware of the Jews' intention to kill him.

As I said before if you want to know whether Jesus was really crucified or not, read and understand what Jesus said AFTER the supposed crucifixion, NOT BEFORE.



How logical is your thinking ??! Let’s see - most, if not all, Republicans and Trump’s supporters wanted to see Trump wins in the last presidential election, BUT, that does NOT mean what they WANTED to see is what they WILL see or will happen as history has proven and shown us. Nobody, in their rational mind, will say, “based on what Trump’s supporters WANTED to see, why would Trump NOT win?’ – are you kidding me ??! Do you have a mind of a 2 years old kid or what???!

Likewise, what Thomas WANTED to see does NOT mean that’s what Thomas WILL see… so, again, show me the verse(s) in your own Bible that clearly said or even implied Jesus was showing the crucifixion wound marks to his disciples. Why don’t you just admit that your blasphemous belief and your responses are just based on conjectures, assumptions, and misunderstanding/misinterpretation of the scripture and Jesus’ true words.

Ridiculous Post

 

[TrueBeliever37]

I believe I have been consistent.

I believe persons depends on the definition. God is one person by the definition of having personality. That is true for all three members of the Trinity. The church defines person as meaning a member of the Trinity.

Well if you believe in 3 separate members that are each God, then you believe in multiple Gods. Or the 3 members are each 1/3 of God. Honestly I can't tell from your posts what you believe.

 

[JerryMyers]

Ridiculous Post

As I said before - a typical response from someone who is unable to refute, logically and rationally, the arguments of the other party.

I will tell you what is ridiculous. Ridiculous is when you want things to happen exactly as you want to see them happened, which fit your comment in post #103 exactly in which you wrote – “Read John 20:25 to see what Thomas wanted to see before he would believe. Based on that what would he be showing Thomas?”.So, let me understand your logic here, just because Thomas wanted to see the crucifixion marks on Jesus’ hands, therefore, based on that, Jesus must be showing the crucifixion marks ??!! Now, that is RIDICULOUS and the logic of a 2 years old kid, unless, of course, you can show me the passage which clearly said Jesus was showing his crucifixion marks on his hands to Thomas.

Obviously, you did not know that man can only plan or expect to see, BUT it’s God who will determine or direct its course – “The mind of man plans his way, But the Lord directs his steps” – Proverbs 16:9.

If you cannot even back up, logically and rationally, your own comments, then, don’t label other people’s comments as ‘ridiculous’. You should heed Jesus’ words – “Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brother’s eye and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye?” (Matthew 7:3)

 

[Soapy]

I believe the Trinity is in the Bible.

I believe that is correct.

I believe we recognize a living human being as a person. The Father does not have that so for that reason He is a different type of person ie One who has personality. However Jesus is two persons as are all of us, the physical person and the spiritual person. The Spirit in Jesus is one with the Father.

I believe that is not the Trinity but is the Doctrine of the Trinity and you are right it is in error.

Jesus is two people as are we allhysical person and spiritual person??? It’s kinda true but not the way I’m hearing you suggest. The two parts are not PERSONS (individuals!!)

No, No, No. a person is ONE SPIRIT operating ONE BODY.

That does not make TWO PERSONS.

The body of a person is an inert vehicle that, by itself has no self-Willed operational capabilities. It is the SPIRIT of the person which directs, aims to preserves, and enlivens the body. That is why when we die (when our spirit leaves our body and goes to rest with God) the body cannot sustain itself and decays back to the ‘dust’ from which it was made.

During the time the spirit is in the body, the spirit aims to preserves, nourish from an external source (feed), avoid dangerous situations (per se) that could injure the VEHICLE of a body that it inhabits.

If the body is injured in such a way that the spirit can no longer sustain it, then the spirit leaves the body… the person is classed as ‘Dead’ in human terms (Scriptures says ‘sleeping’, referring to the spirit only!). ‘Death’ in the scriptures, means DESTRUCTION OF THE SPIRIT… only then is ALL REMEMBRANCE OF THE PERSON GONE. This only happens at the end of time and that is why Jesus grieved over Lazarus, not because Lazarus was humanly dead but because he was thinking of his own (Jesus) resurrection… whether or not GOD could actually raise him back to life as he was going to raise up Lazarus (note that Lazarus must have humanly died AGAIN at some later time … he’s not alive today, yeah!). Jesus was agonising over the IMMORTAL RESURRECTION he was promised by the Father:

• ‘Father, if there could be another way…! But not my Will but Yours [be it done]’

 

[Soapy]

I think you need to take context into account yourself. i.e. - He was standing there being asked by them to show them the Father. What was his reply? - That he had been with them all this time and they still don't know him. If you have SEEN me you have SEEN the Father.

No matter what you are presented with, you try to find some way to negate what it says. Thomas called him his God - plain and simple.

Calling someone ‘God’ and more explicitly, ‘MY God’, does not mean that the target person IS ALMIGHTY GOD!

Almighty God is SPIRIT. Flesh and blood CANNOT SEE SPIRIT…!!!

Jesus told Thomas:

• ‘Touch me, see that I AM NOT A SPIRIT because a SPIRIT does not have flesh and bone as I have!’

And furthermore, Jesus says:

• ‘You have neither seen his [God’s] form nor heard his voice!’

So how can you suggest that an unbeliever ‘SAW ALMIGHTY GOD’?

You are then making Jesus a liar??

And think of this… What was the reaction of the other ten disciples who were in the same room as Thomas and Jesus?

And consider this, too… if someone, or a group of people, had seen almighty God (and had not died… again: if you see God you will die… because sin would destroy the person in the face of God!) why would they lose faith a short time later and go back to their ‘day job’ where Jesus found them later, fishing?

You don’t think that behaviour is odd?

No, Thomas did not ‘see God’. It was merely an expulsion of surprise… in fact, it sounds strangely, and more logically, TRINITARIAN TRIPE!!!

I mean, you claim Thomas SAW GOD, and then Jesus says, ‘Thomas, I’m a human Being… I’m not a spirit, I’m not God! I’m the same Jesus who was crucified on the cross a few days earlier!’

And guess what? The other ten disciples said nothing… supposedly ALMIGHTY GOD was standing right there in the room with them … and they never uttered a word???

What kind of ALMIGHTY SPIRIT GOD do you believe in?

 

[Soapy]

Well if you believe in 3 separate members that are each God, then you believe in multiple Gods. Or the 3 members are each 1/3 of God. Honestly I can't tell from your posts what you believe.

Trinitarians have permutated every way of claiming a three in one God.

As you try to make sense of a post claiming one permutation, the trinitarian simply denies that one is their belief, and moves to another permutation just to confound the questioner.., you know, like a virus!!!

 

[TrueBeliever37]

As I said before - a typical response from someone who is unable to refute, logically and rationally, the arguments of the other party.

I will tell you what is ridiculous. Ridiculous is when you want things to happen exactly as you want to see them happened, which fit your comment in post #103 exactly in which you wrote – “Read John 20:25 to see what Thomas wanted to see before he would believe. Based on that what would he be showing Thomas?”.So, let me understand your logic here, just because Thomas wanted to see the crucifixion marks on Jesus’ hands, therefore, based on that, Jesus must be showing the crucifixion marks ??!! Now, that is RIDICULOUS and the logic of a 2 years old kid, unless, of course, you can show me the passage which clearly said Jesus was showing his crucifixion marks on his hands to Thomas.

Obviously, you did not know that man can only plan or expect to see, BUT it’s God who will determine or direct its course – “The mind of man plans his way, But the Lord directs his steps” – Proverbs 16:9.

If you cannot even back up, logically and rationally, your own comments, then, don’t label other people’s comments as ‘ridiculous’. You should heed Jesus’ words – “Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brother’s eye and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye?” (Matthew 7:3)

How foolish. I think you just like to argue. I wonder if I could convince you the sky is blue.

 

[TrueBeliever37]

Trinitarians have permutated every way of claiming a three in one God.

As you try to make sense of a post claiming one permutation, the trinitarian simply denies that one is their belief, and moves to another permutation just to confound the questioner.., you know, like a virus!!!

For once we are in agreement Soapy!

 

[TrueBeliever37]

Calling someone ‘God’ and more explicitly, ‘MY God’, does not mean that the target person IS ALMIGHTY GOD!

Almighty God is SPIRIT. Flesh and blood CANNOT SEE SPIRIT…!!!

Jesus told Thomas:

• ‘Touch me, see that I AM NOT A SPIRIT because a SPIRIT does not have flesh and bone as I have!’

And furthermore, Jesus says:

• ‘You have neither seen his [God’s] form nor heard his voice!’

So how can you suggest that an unbeliever ‘SAW ALMIGHTY GOD’?

You are then making Jesus a liar??

And think of this… What was the reaction of the other ten disciples who were in the same room as Thomas and Jesus?

And consider this, too… if someone, or a group of people, had seen almighty God (and had not died… again: if you see God you will die… because sin would destroy the person in the face of God!) why would they lose faith a short time later and go back to their ‘day job’ where Jesus found them later, fishing?

You don’t think that behaviour is odd?

No, Thomas did not ‘see God’. It was merely an expulsion of surprise… in fact, it sounds strangely, and more logically, TRINITARIAN TRIPE!!!

I mean, you claim Thomas SAW GOD, and then Jesus says, ‘Thomas, I’m a human Being… I’m not a spirit, I’m not God! I’m the same Jesus who was crucified on the cross a few days earlier!’

And guess what? The other ten disciples said nothing… supposedly ALMIGHTY GOD was standing right there in the room with them … and they never uttered a word???

What kind of ALMIGHTY SPIRIT GOD do you believe in?

Soapy, the reason you can't see God is because you can't see an invisible Spirit. But the Spirit was dwelling in the body he made to dwell in and sacrifice. A body which you could see. So when you saw him you were seeing the Father.

The body wasn't the Spirit. The body was called the Son, because the Spirit fathered the body. Unless you realize the distinction between the flesh and the Spirit you will never understand.

We both know there is not a Trinity. But it is also plain from many scriptures that the Messiah was God. So you have to reconcile how that can be. You keep choosing to deny the divinity of the Messiah, which is contrary to so many scriptures.

 

[DNB]

I think you need to take context into account yourself. i.e. - He was standing there being asked by them to show them the Father. What was his reply? - That he had been with them all this time and they still don't know him. If you have SEEN me you have SEEN the Father.

No matter what you are presented with, you try to find some way to negate what it says. Thomas called him his God - plain and simple.

Only a modalist will call the Son, the Father. But, rather, a serious Biblical exegete will understand Christ's constant usage of figures of speech and analogies (born-again, eat my flesh and drink my blood, if your eye offends thee cut it out, ...) .
Clearly, when the disciples asked Jesus to show them the Father, knowing that the Father is spirit and omnipresent, they were not expecting a physical manifestation, but rather His spiritual presence and power - Christ exuded that entirely - he was the perfected image of God, as we are all meant to be.

Thomas called him god, just as Moses was called god, just as the Judges were called gods - just as Jesus disclaimed being God using the same type of argumentation (men can be called gods).

 

[JerryMyers]

How foolish. I think you just like to argue. I wonder if I could convince you the sky is blue.

Is this what you have been reduced to??? Pathetic !!
If you are unable to refute with logic and rationale, just keep quiet, at least people are kept guessing, BUT the moment you responded with short, one, or two liners, then you just confirm to everyone you are incapable to respond with logic and rationale. Sad.

 

[Brian2]

Calling someone ‘God’ and more explicitly, ‘MY God’, does not mean that the target person IS ALMIGHTY GOD!

Almighty God is SPIRIT. Flesh and blood CANNOT SEE SPIRIT…!!!

Jesus told Thomas:

• ‘Touch me, see that I AM NOT A SPIRIT because a SPIRIT does not have flesh and bone as I have!’

And furthermore, Jesus says:

• ‘You have neither seen his [God’s] form nor heard his voice!’

So how can you suggest that an unbeliever ‘SAW ALMIGHTY GOD’?

You are then making Jesus a liar??

And think of this… What was the reaction of the other ten disciples who were in the same room as Thomas and Jesus?

And consider this, too… if someone, or a group of people, had seen almighty God (and had not died… again: if you see God you will die… because sin would destroy the person in the face of God!) why would they lose faith a short time later and go back to their ‘day job’ where Jesus found them later, fishing?

You don’t think that behaviour is odd?

No, Thomas did not ‘see God’. It was merely an expulsion of surprise… in fact, it sounds strangely, and more logically, TRINITARIAN TRIPE!!!

I mean, you claim Thomas SAW GOD, and then Jesus says, ‘Thomas, I’m a human Being… I’m not a spirit, I’m not God! I’m the same Jesus who was crucified on the cross a few days earlier!’

And guess what? The other ten disciples said nothing… supposedly ALMIGHTY GOD was standing right there in the room with them … and they never uttered a word???

What kind of ALMIGHTY SPIRIT GOD do you believe in?

Jesus told Thomas after Thomas said "My Lord and My God" that not He believed after seeing. He believed what Jesus had been teaching them. Jesus is Lord and God. The Son of God is equal in nature with His Father and the Jews knew that and so wanted to stone Jesus for claiming that God is His Father.
Thomas would not have blasphemed and said "My Lord and my God". That is something that people do these days, a Jew in Jesus day would not dare and did not have that sort of exclamation in his vocabulary or habits.
Another point I notice is that yes God is invisible and people cannot and have not seen Him BUT people have seen God eg.Ex 24:10 and they saw the God of Israel. Under His feet was a work like a pavement made of sapphire, as clear as the sky itself. 11 But God did not lay His hand on the nobles of Israel; they saw Him, and they ate and drank.
How do you explain this?

 

[TrueBeliever37]

Only a modalist will call the Son, the Father. But, rather, a serious Biblical exegete will understand Christ's constant usage of figures of speech and analogies (born-again, eat my flesh and drink my blood, if your eye offends thee cut it out, ...) .
Clearly, when the disciples asked Jesus to show them the Father, knowing that the Father is spirit and omnipresent, they were not expecting a physical manifestation, but rather His spiritual presence and power - Christ exuded that entirely - he was the perfected image of God, as we are all meant to be.

Thomas called him god, just as Moses was called god, just as the Judges were called gods - just as Jesus disclaimed being God using the same type of argumentation (men can be called gods).

You can try to reword the scriptures to fit your beliefs all you want. But when asked to show them the Father, He said if you have SEEN me you have SEEN the Father. (Because the Father was the one dwelling in that body.)

The Son was the fleshly body. The Father is the eternal Spirit. That is NOT saying the Son is the Father. But the Messiah was both Father and Son, or you could say flesh and Spirit. But that is not two different persons.

 

[TrueBeliever37]

Is this what you have been reduced to??? Pathetic !!
If you are unable to refute with logic and rationale, just keep quiet, at least people are kept guessing, BUT the moment you responded with short, one, or two liners, then you just confirm to everyone you are incapable to respond with logic and rationale. Sad.

I just decided not to waste too much time on someone who denies the Messiah even shed his blood for our sins. Your points are so weak, you resort to trying to put me down rather than just prove your points. Logic and rationale will only work when the opposite side is logical and rational. I gave many longer posts with much reasoning - you reject even clear cut scriptures.

 

[DNB]

You can try to reword the scriptures to fit your beliefs all you want. But when asked to show them the Father, He said if you have SEEN me you have SEEN the Father. (Because the Father was the one dwelling in that body.)

The Son was the fleshly body. The Father is the eternal Spirit. That is NOT saying the Son is the Father. But the Messiah was both Father and Son, or you could say flesh and Spirit. But that is not two different persons.

I Haven't a clue what you are talking about, and thus, I can only conclude that it is you who is both rewording, and bastardizing Scripture.
The Father is not the Son, nor can be. You are speaking utter absurdities that no one, including yourself, can either understand or exegete justifiably.

 

[TrueBeliever37]

I Haven't a clue what you are talking about, and thus, I can only conclude that it is you who is both rewording, and bastardizing Scripture.
The Father is not the Son, nor can be. You are speaking utter absurdities that no one, including yourself, can either understand or exegete justifiably.

You mean you can't understand that there is a difference between flesh and Spirit? Because that is the difference between the Father and the Son. The Father is the eternal Spirit and the Son is the fleshly body.