How are the Titles, ‘Father’, and ‘Son’, defined in the scriptures - in relation to Spirit and Flesh

[Soapy]

I will suggest that ‘Father’ means exactly what it sounds like and how we use it today, taking all things in their relevant context:

1. ‘He who brings something into being’
2. ‘He who gives life to something’
3. ‘He who is the head of a grouping (of like or unlike entities)

We know that God, the Father: Yahweh, is the CREATOR (1.):

• “In the beginning GOD CREATED the heavens and the earth...” (Gen 1:1)

It was GOD who GAVE LIFE by the spirit to all of living creation:

• “Then the LORD God formed a man from the dust of the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and the man became a LIVING being.” (Gen 2:7)
• “But I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the HEAD of Christ is God.” (1 Cor 11:3)

And, by the above, a SON is:

1. ‘One who perfectly carries out the work the FATHER gives him to do’
2. He is an IMAGE of his ‘Father’ (He reflects, exactly, the personality and righteous properties of the Father)
3. A ‘Son in Spirit’ is an adopted ‘Son’ and not a direct procreation of the ‘Father’
4. A ‘Son in the flesh’ is a direct procreation through a wife (ideally!)
5. A faithful, dutiful, and honored Son (of any sort) is HEIR to the Father

Jesus Christ is ‘Son of God’ (3.) by adoption:

• “In the same way, Christ did not take on himself the glory of becoming a high priest. But God said to him, "You are my Son; today I have become your Father." (Hebrews 5:5)

Luke 3:38 states that the first man, Adam, was ‘SON OF GOD’. This is evidently relating to the time before Adam sinned. Clearly, since Adam was CREATED sinless, Holy, and Righteous, - Image of God (2.), he would have been a true ‘Son in spirit’ (3.) to almighty God: the Father.
Jesus is ‘Son’ by duty (1.).

• “what about the one whom the Father set apart as his very own and sent into the world? Why then do you accuse me of blasphemy because I said, 'I am God's Son'? Do not believe me unless I do the works of my Father. But if I do them, even though you do not believe me, believe the works, that you may know and understand that the Father is in me, and I in the Father." (John 10:36-38)

In these verse (and prior) Jesus, whom the Jews accuse of ‘calling himself GOD’ (clearly errant and sounds ridiculous in light of...) Jesus ASSERTS that saying that God is his Father did not make him GOD also (I know Trinitarians argue the opposite but it is what JESUS HIMSELF SAID!) In fact, he had said only that he was ‘The Son of God’... (implied) and since God is his FATHER ...and GOD is SPIRIT... there should be no doubt he meant ‘Son in Spirit’ (3.). But, moreover, Jesus DEFINED what it is to be ‘Son’ saying that he was ‘Doing the works of the Father’... Clearly, whether ‘Son in Spirit’ (3.) or ‘Son in Flesh’ (4.), doing the perfect works perfectly of HIM who set the works for you, is a being a ‘SON’, reflecting the ideals of the Father.
He was born, Son of a woman, FATHERED by the Holy Spirit OF THE FATHER, sinless, Holy, and Righteous. Here, since there was no human Father there was no PROCREATION, and therefore Jesus was a CREATION MEANS of GOD’s Holy Spirit, just the same as the first man, Adam (Hence Jesus is called, ‘the Last Adam’ - No other direct human creation will ever again take place!:

• ‘By the sin of [the first created MAN, Adam] death came to all mankind... by the death of [the last created MAN, Jesus] Sin has been destroyed’ (paraphrased)

Both Adam (before sinning) and Jesus Christ (eternally) are examples of perfect ‘Sons in Spirit’.

We can read also that Jesus elsewhere called certain of the errant Jews, ‘Sons of your Father’ - meaning, ‘Sons of Satan’... clearly Satan did not procreated these errant Jews but rather, they were ‘Doing the wrongful works of Satan; the Father of the lie’.

Paul, the apostle, ADOPTED the runaway slave, Onesimus, (Philemon 1) as his ‘Son’ because Onesimus so perfectly carried out the work (1.) of delivering the teachings of Paul to the distributed christians while Paul was ‘in prison in chains’.

So, your thoughts please to add to the above. Thanks.

 

[exchemist]

I will suggest that ‘Father’ means exactly what it sounds like and how we use it today, taking all things in their relevant context:

1. ‘He who brings something into being’
2. ‘He who gives life to something’
3. ‘He who is the head of a grouping (of like or unlike entities)

We know that God, the Father: Yahweh, is the CREATOR (1.):

• “In the beginning GOD CREATED the heavens and the earth...” (Gen 1:1)

It was GOD who GAVE LIFE by the spirit to all of living creation:

• “Then the LORD God formed a man from the dust of the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and the man became a LIVING being.” (Gen 2:7)
• “But I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the HEAD of Christ is God.” (1 Cor 11:3)

And, by the above, a SON is:

1. ‘One who perfectly carries out the work the FATHER gives him to do’
2. He is an IMAGE of his ‘Father’ (He reflects, exactly, the personality and righteous properties of the Father)
3. A ‘Son in Spirit’ is an adopted ‘Son’ and not a direct procreation of the ‘Father’
4. A ‘Son in the flesh’ is a direct procreation through a wife (ideally!)
5. A faithful, dutiful, and honored Son (of any sort) is HEIR to the Father

Jesus Christ is ‘Son of God’ (3.) by adoption:

• “In the same way, Christ did not take on himself the glory of becoming a high priest. But God said to him, "You are my Son; today I have become your Father." (Hebrews 5:5)

Luke 3:38 states that the first man, Adam, was ‘SON OF GOD’. This is evidently relating to the time before Adam sinned. Clearly, since Adam was CREATED sinless, Holy, and Righteous, - Image of God (2.), he would have been a true ‘Son in spirit’ (3.) to almighty God: the Father.
Jesus is ‘Son’ by duty (1.).

• “what about the one whom the Father set apart as his very own and sent into the world? Why then do you accuse me of blasphemy because I said, 'I am God's Son'? Do not believe me unless I do the works of my Father. But if I do them, even though you do not believe me, believe the works, that you may know and understand that the Father is in me, and I in the Father." (John 10:36-38)

In these verse (and prior) Jesus, whom the Jews accuse of ‘calling himself GOD’ (clearly errant and sounds ridiculous in light of...) Jesus ASSERTS that saying that God is his Father did not make him GOD also (I know Trinitarians argue the opposite but it is what JESUS HIMSELF SAID!) In fact, he had said only that he was ‘The Son of God’... (implied) and since God is his FATHER ...and GOD is SPIRIT... there should be no doubt he meant ‘Son in Spirit’ (3.). But, moreover, Jesus DEFINED what it is to be ‘Son’ saying that he was ‘Doing the works of the Father’... Clearly, whether ‘Son in Spirit’ (3.) or ‘Son in Flesh’ (4.), doing the perfect works perfectly of HIM who set the works for you, is a being a ‘SON’, reflecting the ideals of the Father.
He was born, Son of a woman, FATHERED by the Holy Spirit OF THE FATHER, sinless, Holy, and Righteous. Here, since there was no human Father there was no PROCREATION, and therefore Jesus was a CREATION MEANS of GOD’s Holy Spirit, just the same as the first man, Adam (Hence Jesus is called, ‘the Last Adam’ - No other direct human creation will ever again take place!:

• ‘By the sin of [the first created MAN, Adam] death came to all mankind... by the death of [the last created MAN, Jesus] Sin has been destroyed’ (paraphrased)

Both Adam (before sinning) and Jesus Christ (eternally) are examples of perfect ‘Sons in Spirit’.

We can read also that Jesus elsewhere called certain of the errant Jews, ‘Sons of your Father’ - meaning, ‘Sons of Satan’... clearly Satan did not procreated these errant Jews but rather, they were ‘Doing the wrongful works of Satan; the Father of the lie’.

Paul, the apostle, ADOPTED the runaway slave, Onesimus, (Philemon 1) as his ‘Son’ because Onesimus so perfectly carried out the work (1.) of delivering the teachings of Paul to the distributed christians while Paul was ‘in prison in chains’.

So, your thoughts please to add to the above. Thanks.

If you are yet another Jehovah's Witness, why don't you just say so?

 

[Soapy]

If you are yet another Jehovah's Witness, why don't you just say so?

Wow... ....!!!

Erm....! No, I am not a JW. But never mind what I am, it is the discussion that is required for this topic thread.

The topic is debating the terms ‘Father’ and ‘Son’ in relation to the spirit and to the flesh drawn from the CHRISTIAN scriptures - The Holy Bible.

 

[exchemist]

Wow... ....!!!

Erm....! No, I am not a JW. But never mind what I am, it is the discussion that is required for this topic thread.

The topic is debating the terms ‘Father’ and ‘Son’ in relation to the spirit and to the flesh drawn from the CHRISTIAN scriptures - The Holy Bible.

Oh good, that's a relief.

 

[Brian2]

I will suggest that ‘Father’ means exactly what it sounds like and how we use it today, taking all things in their relevant context:

1. ‘He who brings something into being’
2. ‘He who gives life to something’
3. ‘He who is the head of a grouping (of like or unlike entities)

We know that God, the Father: Yahweh, is the CREATOR (1.):

• “In the beginning GOD CREATED the heavens and the earth...” (Gen 1:1)

It was GOD who GAVE LIFE by the spirit to all of living creation:

• “Then the LORD God formed a man from the dust of the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and the man became a LIVING being.” (Gen 2:7)
• “But I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the HEAD of Christ is God.” (1 Cor 11:3)

And, by the above, a SON is:

1. ‘One who perfectly carries out the work the FATHER gives him to do’
2. He is an IMAGE of his ‘Father’ (He reflects, exactly, the personality and righteous properties of the Father)
3. A ‘Son in Spirit’ is an adopted ‘Son’ and not a direct procreation of the ‘Father’
4. A ‘Son in the flesh’ is a direct procreation through a wife (ideally!)
5. A faithful, dutiful, and honored Son (of any sort) is HEIR to the Father

Jesus Christ is ‘Son of God’ (3.) by adoption:

• “In the same way, Christ did not take on himself the glory of becoming a high priest. But God said to him, "You are my Son; today I have become your Father." (Hebrews 5:5)

Luke 3:38 states that the first man, Adam, was ‘SON OF GOD’. This is evidently relating to the time before Adam sinned. Clearly, since Adam was CREATED sinless, Holy, and Righteous, - Image of God (2.), he would have been a true ‘Son in spirit’ (3.) to almighty God: the Father.
Jesus is ‘Son’ by duty (1.).

• “what about the one whom the Father set apart as his very own and sent into the world? Why then do you accuse me of blasphemy because I said, 'I am God's Son'? Do not believe me unless I do the works of my Father. But if I do them, even though you do not believe me, believe the works, that you may know and understand that the Father is in me, and I in the Father." (John 10:36-38)

In these verse (and prior) Jesus, whom the Jews accuse of ‘calling himself GOD’ (clearly errant and sounds ridiculous in light of...) Jesus ASSERTS that saying that God is his Father did not make him GOD also (I know Trinitarians argue the opposite but it is what JESUS HIMSELF SAID!) In fact, he had said only that he was ‘The Son of God’... (implied) and since God is his FATHER ...and GOD is SPIRIT... there should be no doubt he meant ‘Son in Spirit’ (3.). But, moreover, Jesus DEFINED what it is to be ‘Son’ saying that he was ‘Doing the works of the Father’... Clearly, whether ‘Son in Spirit’ (3.) or ‘Son in Flesh’ (4.), doing the perfect works perfectly of HIM who set the works for you, is a being a ‘SON’, reflecting the ideals of the Father.
He was born, Son of a woman, FATHERED by the Holy Spirit OF THE FATHER, sinless, Holy, and Righteous. Here, since there was no human Father there was no PROCREATION, and therefore Jesus was a CREATION MEANS of GOD’s Holy Spirit, just the same as the first man, Adam (Hence Jesus is called, ‘the Last Adam’ - No other direct human creation will ever again take place!:

• ‘By the sin of [the first created MAN, Adam] death came to all mankind... by the death of [the last created MAN, Jesus] Sin has been destroyed’ (paraphrased)

Both Adam (before sinning) and Jesus Christ (eternally) are examples of perfect ‘Sons in Spirit’.

We can read also that Jesus elsewhere called certain of the errant Jews, ‘Sons of your Father’ - meaning, ‘Sons of Satan’... clearly Satan did not procreated these errant Jews but rather, they were ‘Doing the wrongful works of Satan; the Father of the lie’.

Paul, the apostle, ADOPTED the runaway slave, Onesimus, (Philemon 1) as his ‘Son’ because Onesimus so perfectly carried out the work (1.) of delivering the teachings of Paul to the distributed christians while Paul was ‘in prison in chains’.

So, your thoughts please to add to the above. Thanks.

God sent His Son into the world. Jesus would have existed as God's Son before coming into the world, yes?

 

[moorea944]

God sent His Son into the world. Jesus would have existed as God's Son before coming into the world, yes?

Why would Jesus exist before he was born?... And for what reason. Doesnt scripture tell us that he was born? If Jesus pre-existed and is God, then why go through that role playing thing of a father and son.... Doesnt make sense does it. If Jesus is equal with the Father, wouldnt that make him angry that he was made a son and not a father? If there are co-equal, then now they are not. You have a father and son, who's still co-equal?.. See how the trinity doesnt make sense?.........

 

[Brian2]

Why would Jesus exist before he was born?... And for what reason. Doesnt scripture tell us that he was born? If Jesus pre-existed and is God, then why go through that role playing thing of a father and son.... Doesnt make sense does it. If Jesus is equal with the Father, wouldnt that make him angry that he was made a son and not a father? If there are co-equal, then now they are not. You have a father and son, who's still co-equal?.. See how the trinity doesnt make sense?.........

What do you say about Philipians 2 then where it tells us Jesus existed before He became a man?
We should be be asking why, we should just be reading the scripture and agreeing.
Jesus was not role playing as the Son. Jesus was the Son before He became a man and as Phil 2 tells us He was equal to God. Jesus was the Son in His pre-existence because He gets His life from His Father.
God is the head of Christ. That means that God is the source of Christ.
Jesus could have been angry and refused to become a man but as Phil 2 tells us, His attitude was humble even with God His equal. (which is how we should be with each other----the point of Phil 2:1-11.)
The equality is in their nature. They have the same nature now as they did then and Jesus kept that nature even when He became a man and took another nature as well, that of a servant, which He did not have before becoming a man. Their relationship is and always has been a Father/Son relationship.

 

[Soapy]

To All, it would really help to provide your answers with respect to the definitions of ‘Father’ and ‘Son’ according to the Christian scriptures.

Brian2 says that God sent his Son into the world... Well, scriptures says so BUT the timeline is wrong and the term ‘Sent into the world’ is not about being born or ‘coming into creation’.

Scriptures tells us that the Son was TAUGHT BY THE FATHER... which makes sense.... As ‘Michael Corleone’ (fictitious character from the film, ‘The Godfather’) says, ‘If I need help, who better to teach me than my Father’ (paraphrased). In an ideal world there is nobody better to teach a son than his Father... and God is the most ideal teacher.

Being, ‘sent into the world’, by the way, is when Jesus STARTED his mission at 30 years old. While the Son was in ‘Learning from the Father’ he did nothing at all in relation to miracles. But then, when he was CALLED BY THE FATHER, the Father acknowledged Jesus to the world:

• “This is my Son in whom I am well pleased’

Remember that God had announced that a Son would be born to an Israelite Virgin in time to come:

• “Therefore the Lord himself will give you a sign: The virgin will conceive and give birth to a son, and will call him Immanuel.” (Isaiah 7:14)

And Lo and behold:

• “The angel answered [Mary, the virgin], "The Holy Spirit will come on you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you. So the holy one to be born will be called the Son of God.” (Luke 1:35)

And the gospel writer said:

• “how God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Spirit and power, and how he went around doing good and healing all who were under the power of the devil, because God was with him.” (Acts 10:38)

So God announced at the baptism of his ‘Son in spirit’, son of a huMAN mother (son of man) his pleasure in Jesus, anointed him with the power of the Father (Like Dad giving his Son the keys to the family credit card because the son has proved himself righteous and worthy! .... just go with it!!)

And, the scriptures tells us that (at some other time) GOD was pleased to announce to Jesus:

• ‘In the same way, Christ did not take on himself the glory of becoming a high priest. But God said to him, "You are my Son; today I have become your Father."’

So it was AFTER Jesus was baptised and anointed with Holy Spirit, after he RECEIVED ‘power from on high’ that he was ‘Sent into the world ... to do good’. As the prophesy in Isaiah says:

• "Here is my *servant*, whom I uphold, my chosen one in whom I delight; I will put my Spirit on him, and he will bring justice to the nations.” (Isaiah 42:1)

((*A ‘Son’ is, akin to a servant to his Father.))

 

[Soapy]

What do you say about Philipians 2 then where it tells us Jesus existed before He became a man?
We should be be asking why, we should just be reading the scripture and agreeing.
Jesus was not role playing as the Son. Jesus was the Son before He became a man and as Phil 2 tells us He was equal to God. Jesus was the Son in His pre-existence because He gets His life from His Father.
God is the head of Christ. That means that God is the source of Christ.
Jesus could have been angry and refused to become a man but as Phil 2 tells us, His attitude was humble even with God His equal. (which is how we should be with each other----the point of Phil 2:1-11.)
The equality is in their nature. They have the same nature now as they did then and Jesus kept that nature even when He became a man and took another nature as well, that of a servant, which He did not have before becoming a man. Their relationship is and always has been a Father/Son relationship.

Brian2, Phil 2 does not speak about a pre-existent Son of God.

It speaks of Jesus having the power of God (which is pointed out in his baptism at the river Jordan) and being appointed as ‘SON’ to the delight of the Father (thus, a Son in spirit).

Phil 2 goes on to say that ‘THOUGH JESUS HAD THE POWER OF GOD” he did not think to ABUSE IT by lording it over his fellow man BUT RATHER he set himself as a humble man and only using the GODLY POWERS to do good.

Hence, the scriptures says, “Be like Christ...”:

• “5In your relationships with one another, have the same mindset as Christ Jesus:
• 6Who, being in very nature God, did not consider equality with God something to be used to his own advantage;”

I do not agree with the trinitarian translation of ‘In very nature God’ because God says that he is unique, there is

• ‘NO ONE LIKE ME’ and
• ‘BESIDE ME THERE IS NO GOD’

No one can be EQUAL TO GOD. How could that ever be... how could any sane, sensible, truthfully religious person ever think that any other being could be equal to their ONE AND ONLY TRUE GOD...

And not satisfied with claiming an impossibility but trinity then goes on to say that the Son WAS THAT SAME GOD he was EQUAL TO?

Nos that isn’t even English, let alone linguistically correct. Something csnnot be equal to something and BE the thing it is equal to..... oh my gosh!!!! What nonsense!

Reality check: Jesus ALWAYS acknowledged that:

• “The one who sent me is with me; he has not left me alone, for I always do what pleases him." (John 8:29)
  
• “Very truly I tell you, whoever believes in me will do the works I have been doing, and they will do even greater things than these, because I am going to the Father.” (John 14:12)
• “Then Jesus looked up and said, "Father, I thank you that you have heard me. I knew that you always hear me, but I said this for the benefit of the people standing here, that they may believe that you sent me." (John 11:41-42)

In all these verse, Jesus acknowledges his Father’s power in him... hence he says that he is in the Father (He relies totally on the Father) and the Father is in him (By means of the Father’s Holy Spirit with which Jesus was anointed)

Notice that when the apostles were anointed with the Holy Spirit, THEY, TOO received ‘power from on high’ and received ‘Gifts of the Holy Spirit’ such that some could do miraculous things just as Jesus did. At this point they were not called SONS because they were still not in an adopted state.

 

[moorea944]

What do you say about Philipians 2 then where it tells us Jesus existed before He became a man?
We should be be asking why, we should just be reading the scripture and agreeing.
Jesus was not role playing as the Son. Jesus was the Son before He became a man and as Phil 2 tells us He was equal to God. Jesus was the Son in His pre-existence because He gets His life from His Father.
God is the head of Christ. That means that God is the source of Christ.
Jesus could have been angry and refused to become a man but as Phil 2 tells us, His attitude was humble even with God His equal. (which is how we should be with each other----the point of Phil 2:1-11.)
The equality is in their nature. They have the same nature now as they did then and Jesus kept that nature even when He became a man and took another nature as well, that of a servant, which He did not have before becoming a man. Their relationship is and always has been a Father/Son relationship.

Your not reading the whole chapter. Plus, depending on what bible your reading, it can be wrong or right. The ESV has a better translation.
" who, though he was in the form of God, did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped," Jesus is was never co-equal with God. Never, there is no reason for it. There is only one God. The Godhead is simple.. God - Jesus - man - woman. Simple language.

Also take a look at Heb 2. Jesus was make like us, and that was for a certain reason too. He wasnt a God or an immortal being, he was make like us. Same nature that is prone to sin and that it dies.

 

[Soapy]

Hello All...
————————————————————
No matter what your views

Please can you include some reference of link to the relationship of FATHER and SON according to the Christian scriptures.

Please - No TRINITY DOCTRINE
————————————————————

 

[Soapy]

1. Jesus, the eternal Son in spirit to God, is man and the IMAGE of the Father.... Born of the Holy Spirit of the Father from inert dust of the seed of a woman
2. Adam, the failed son in spirit to the father, was man and IMAGE of the Father... born of the Holy Spirit of the Father from inert dust of the earth

Discuss these two facts, please.

 

[Brian2]

Brian2, Phil 2 does not speak about a pre-existent Son of God.
It speaks of Jesus having the power of God (which is pointed out in his baptism at the river Jordan) and being appointed as ‘SON’ to the delight of the Father (thus, a Son in spirit).

Phil 2 goes on to say that ‘THOUGH JESUS HAD THE POWER OF GOD” he did not think to ABUSE IT by lording it over his fellow man BUT RATHER he set himself as a humble man and only using the GODLY POWERS to do good.
Hence, the scriptures says, “Be like Christ...”:

• “5In your relationships with one another, have the same mindset as Christ Jesus:
• 6Who, being in very nature God, did not consider equality with God something to be used to his own advantage;”

Phil 2:4 Let each of you look not only to his own interests, but also to the interests of others. 5 Have this mind among yourselves, which is yours in Christ Jesus, 6 who, though he was in the form of God, did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped, 7 but emptied himself, by taking the form of a servant, being born in the likeness of men. 8 And being found in human form, he humbled himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross.

You are trying to show that the passage does not show Jesus existed before becoming a human.
That He did exist is show in the passage because it says that He emptied Himself and took the form of a servant. To do this He had to exist before becoming a human.
It also says that He humbled Himself and became obedient to God. So He was humbling Himself to God.
His equality to God is therefore shown.

I do not agree with the trinitarian translation of ‘In very nature God’ because God says that he is unique, there is

• ‘NO ONE LIKE ME’ and
• ‘BESIDE ME THERE IS NO GOD’

No one can be EQUAL TO GOD. How could that ever be... how could any sane, sensible, truthfully religious person ever think that any other being could be equal to their ONE AND ONLY TRUE GOD...

And not satisfied with claiming an impossibility but trinity then goes on to say that the Son WAS THAT SAME GOD he was EQUAL TO?

Nos that isn’t even English, let alone linguistically correct. Something csnnot be equal to something and BE the thing it is equal to..... oh my gosh!!!! What nonsense!

That's called circular reasoning. You say to yourself "Jesus is not equal to God therefore the passage cannot say that" then you go about trying to alter the meaning of the passage to suite your preconceptions.

And no Jesus did not have the power of God and did not get that power at Him baptism. He got it when He rose from the dead and went to the Father.
Phil 2 does NOT say ‘THOUGH JESUS HAD THE POWER OF GOD” as you are saying. The passage does not say it and it is not shown in the gospel.

Reality check: Jesus ALWAYS acknowledged that:

• “The one who sent me is with me; he has not left me alone, for I always do what pleases him." (John 8:29)
  
• “Very truly I tell you, whoever believes in me will do the works I have been doing, and they will do even greater things than these, because I am going to the Father.” (John 14:12)
• “Then Jesus looked up and said, "Father, I thank you that you have heard me. I knew that you always hear me, but I said this for the benefit of the people standing here, that they may believe that you sent me." (John 11:41-42)

In all these verse, Jesus acknowledges his Father’s power in him... hence he says that he is in the Father (He relies totally on the Father) and the Father is in him (By means of the Father’s Holy Spirit with which Jesus was anointed)

Do you think that Trinitarians don't acknowledge that Jesus lived as a man, relying on His Father for all things, as other men do?

Notice that when the apostles were anointed with the Holy Spirit, THEY, TOO received ‘power from on high’ and received ‘Gifts of the Holy Spirit’ such that some could do miraculous things just as Jesus did. At this point they were not called SONS because they were still not in an adopted state.

Yes the Holy Spirit does give gifts, soooo.
They actually were called children of God because of their being born again of God. See Romans 8.

 

[Brian2]

Your not reading the whole chapter. Plus, depending on what bible your reading, it can be wrong or right. The ESV has a better translation.
" who, though he was in the form of God, did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped," Jesus is was never co-equal with God. Never, there is no reason for it. There is only one God. The Godhead is simple.. God - Jesus - man - woman. Simple language.

Also take a look at Heb 2. Jesus was make like us, and that was for a certain reason too. He wasnt a God or an immortal being, he was make like us. Same nature that is prone to sin and that it dies.

Yes Jesus was made a man under the law. I know that.
What do you mean by: The Godhead is simple.. God - Jesus - man - woman.
Phil 2 does however show us that Jesus pre-existed His life as a man. Read post 13 so that I do not have to repeat it.
What do you say that it means when it says that Jesus was in the form of God?

 

[Brian2]

I will suggest that ‘Father’ means exactly what it sounds like and how we use it today, taking all things in their relevant context:

1. ‘He who brings something into being’
2. ‘He who gives life to something’
3. ‘He who is the head of a grouping (of like or unlike entities)

How about the one from whom the life of His children comes?

We know that God, the Father: Yahweh, is the CREATOR (1.):

• “In the beginning GOD CREATED the heavens and the earth...” (Gen 1:1)

It was GOD who GAVE LIFE by the spirit to all of living creation:

• “Then the LORD God formed a man from the dust of the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and the man became a LIVING being.” (Gen 2:7)
• “But I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the HEAD of Christ is God.” (1 Cor 11:3)

"Head" means the source. And yes God is the source of Christ.

And, by the above, a SON is:

1. ‘One who perfectly carries out the work the FATHER gives him to do’
2. He is an IMAGE of his ‘Father’ (He reflects, exactly, the personality and righteous properties of the Father)
3. A ‘Son in Spirit’ is an adopted ‘Son’ and not a direct procreation of the ‘Father’
4. A ‘Son in the flesh’ is a direct procreation through a wife (ideally!)
5. A faithful, dutiful, and honored Son (of any sort) is HEIR to the Father

Jesus Christ is ‘Son of God’ (3.) by adoption:

• “In the same way, Christ did not take on himself the glory of becoming a high priest. But God said to him, "You are my Son; today I have become your Father." (Hebrews 5:5)

Luke 3:38 states that the first man, Adam, was ‘SON OF GOD’. This is evidently relating to the time before Adam sinned. Clearly, since Adam was CREATED sinless, Holy, and Righteous, - Image of God (2.), he would have been a true ‘Son in spirit’ (3.) to almighty God: the Father.
Jesus is ‘Son’ by duty (1.).

• “what about the one whom the Father set apart as his very own and sent into the world? Why then do you accuse me of blasphemy because I said, 'I am God's Son'? Do not believe me unless I do the works of my Father. But if I do them, even though you do not believe me, believe the works, that you may know and understand that the Father is in me, and I in the Father." (John 10:36-38)

In these verse (and prior) Jesus, whom the Jews accuse of ‘calling himself GOD’ (clearly errant and sounds ridiculous in light of...) Jesus ASSERTS that saying that God is his Father did not make him GOD also (I know Trinitarians argue the opposite but it is what JESUS HIMSELF SAID!) In fact, he had said only that he was ‘The Son of God’... (implied) and since God is his FATHER ...and GOD is SPIRIT... there should be no doubt he meant ‘Son in Spirit’ (3.). But, moreover, Jesus DEFINED what it is to be ‘Son’ saying that he was ‘Doing the works of the Father’... Clearly, whether ‘Son in Spirit’ (3.) or ‘Son in Flesh’ (4.), doing the perfect works perfectly of HIM who set the works for you, is a being a ‘SON’, reflecting the ideals of the Father.
He was born, Son of a woman, FATHERED by the Holy Spirit OF THE FATHER, sinless, Holy, and Righteous. Here, since there was no human Father there was no PROCREATION, and therefore Jesus was a CREATION MEANS of GOD’s Holy Spirit, just the same as the first man, Adam (Hence Jesus is called, ‘the Last Adam’ - No other direct human creation will ever again take place!:

• ‘By the sin of [the first created MAN, Adam] death came to all mankind... by the death of [the last created MAN, Jesus] Sin has been destroyed’ (paraphrased)

Both Adam (before sinning) and Jesus Christ (eternally) are examples of perfect ‘Sons in Spirit’.

We can read also that Jesus elsewhere called certain of the errant Jews, ‘Sons of your Father’ - meaning, ‘Sons of Satan’... clearly Satan did not procreated these errant Jews but rather, they were ‘Doing the wrongful works of Satan; the Father of the lie’.

Paul, the apostle, ADOPTED the runaway slave, Onesimus, (Philemon 1) as his ‘Son’ because Onesimus so perfectly carried out the work (1.) of delivering the teachings of Paul to the distributed christians while Paul was ‘in prison in chains’.

So, your thoughts please to add to the above. Thanks.

Since I have shown that Phil 2 tells us that Jesus existed before becoming a human your ideas about Jesus coming into existence when He became a human need to change.

 

[Soapy]

How about the one from whom the life of His children comes?

That is covered by clause 2: ‘He who gives life to someone or something’

"Head" means the source. And yes God is the source of Christ.

God IS the HEAD of Christ (1 Cor 11:3) Just as a FATHER is HEAD of his Son ****What I set this thread to explore but not many seem interested to follow**** So since the Father is head of his Son, how can the Son be EQUAL to his Father?

Since I have shown that Phil 2 tells us that Jesus existed before becoming a human your ideas about Jesus coming into existence when He became a human need to change.

Brian2, your arguments are getting desperate..., I do not wonder why?

If your claim is that Jesus is Almighty God then how can you also claim that GOD BECAME MAN?

What kind of GOD ‘thing’ are you claiming to be worshipping? Have you been watching too much Netflix Avengers about the son of the Norse God, Odin, ‘sending his son’, Thor!?? Or Greek mythology about Hercules, and other such myths about Gods impregnating human women to produce Son/Man-Gods...?

Phil 2 does not speak of what you say. Jesus was ANOINTED BY GOD THE FATHER... The Father laid His power upon his Son JUST AS HE ANNOUNCED IT hundreds of years earlier:

• ‘Behold my Servant whom I have chosen. I WILL PUT MY SPIRIT ON HIM. And he shall bring justice to the nations’ (Isaiah 42:1)

Brian2, God, who is Spirit and the the Father of all good things, created a physical world for his pleasure. He also created Beings of all sorts but one special creation he called, ‘Man’. God, as Father to mankind, proposed that ONE RIGHTEOUS man from among humanity should rule over mankind and all creation. This one righteous man, he called ‘SON’ BY ADOPTION:

• “And no one takes this honor on himself, but he receives it when called by God, just as Aaron was. ... But God said to him (Jesus), “You are my Son; today I have become your Father.” (Hebrews 5:4-5)

Brian2, when a child is ADOPTED, the words, ‘I have become your Father’ are exactly what is relayed to the child... If Jesus was pre-existent, why would the Father say these words to him?

 

[Clear]

Hi @Brian2 and @Soapy

One principle that I think Soapys O.P. and comments lack is historical specificity regarding two points.
Soapys' theology : The Messiah did not exist before birth
versus
Brian2s' theology : The Messiah did exist before birth.

CONFLICTING THEOLOGICAL MODELS AND INTERPRETATIONS FROM DIFFERENT TIME PERIODS.

1) Regarding whether the Messiah existed before birth
The difference seems to be that @Brian2 is referring to the earlier and ancient form of Christian theology where the Messiah did exist before birth and Soapy is referring to a later, more modern Christian theology where the Messiah did not exist before birth.

I am not saying which theology is better or worse, simply that these two conflicting theologies come from different time periods.

Brian2s model is a more original and early interpretation and Soapys model represents a later interpretation from a different time period.



2) Regarding whether God the Father creates the earth alone or involves the Messiah
The same issue involves the theology where God creates the worlds through the use of the Messiah Jesus (e.g. the earlier theological model) versus the theology where God creates the worlds himself without the contribution of any other being (e.g. the later, more modern theological model).

Again, I am not saying which model is better, but merely that these two conflicting Christian theological models are from different time periods and that Brian2s model is the earlier, more ancient interpretative model according the the early Judeo-Christian literature..


In any case, and whichever model readers have adopted, I hope your spiritual journeys are wonderful.

Clear
τωφιτζω

 

[Brian2]

That is covered by clause 2: ‘He who gives life to someone or something’
God IS the HEAD of Christ (1 Cor 11:3) Just as a FATHER is HEAD of his Son ****What I set this thread to explore but not many seem interested to follow**** So since the Father is head of his Son, how can the Son be EQUAL to his Father?
Brian2, your arguments are getting desperate..., I do not wonder why?

Equal in nature. That is what the Trinity doctrine tells us and what the Bible tells us. A son has the same nature as His father if truly they are father and son.
Jesus was wondering how the Messiah could be the Lord of David if the Messiah is His Son.
In that case Jesus is from heaven and His Father is God and as the angel tells us He is Christ the Lord who descended from heaven. (Luke 2:11, John 3:13)

If your claim is that Jesus is Almighty God then how can you also claim that GOD BECAME MAN?

What kind of GOD ‘thing’ are you claiming to be worshipping? Have you been watching too much Netflix Avengers about the son of the Norse God, Odin, ‘sending his son’, Thor!?? Or Greek mythology about Hercules, and other such myths about Gods impregnating human women to produce Son/Man-Gods...?

I claim that Jesus is the Son of God. It is the Father who is the one true God but the son is in the Father and is equal in nature to His Father and so is worshipped also because He is our God according to Thomas. God even told the angels to worship Him when He came to earth. (Heb 1:6) John said he wrote the gospel so that people would believe Jesus is the Son of God and Thomas tells us what that means.

Phil 2 does not speak of what you say. Jesus was ANOINTED BY GOD THE FATHER... The Father laid His power upon his Son JUST AS HE ANNOUNCED IT hundreds of years earlier:

• ‘Behold my Servant whom I have chosen. I WILL PUT MY SPIRIT ON HIM. And he shall bring justice to the nations’ (Isaiah 42:1)

It is true that the Son has the Spirit without measure.(John 3:34) but Jesus was the Christ the Lord from heaven when He was born. (Luke 2:11, John 3:13)
Jesus was also sinless before He was given the Spirit, in those first 30 years of life on earth, because of whom He is. As a man He was tempted and as God He is sinless.
BUT Phil 2 does speak of what I say.
Phil 2:5 Have this mind among yourselves, which is yours in Christ Jesus, 6 who, though he was in the form of God, did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped, 7 but emptied himself, by taking the form of a servant, being born in the likeness of men.
You want to just brush it aside. It tells us the He decided to take the form of a servant. That means He existed before becoming a man and was not a servant of God then.

Brian2, God, who is Spirit and the the Father of all good things, created a physical world for his pleasure. He also created Beings of all sorts but one special creation he called, ‘Man’. God, as Father to mankind, proposed that ONE RIGHTEOUS man from among humanity should rule over mankind and all creation. This one righteous man, he called ‘SON’ BY ADOPTION:

• “And no one takes this honor on himself, but he receives it when called by God, just as Aaron was. ... But God said to him (Jesus), “You are my Son; today I have become your Father.” (Hebrews 5:4-5)

It is true that the man Jesus was adopted at His resurrection.
Acts 13:32 And now we proclaim to you the good news: What God promised our fathers 33 He has fulfilled for us, their children, by raising up Jesus. As it is written in the second Psalm: ‘You are My Son; today I have become Your Father.’
But Jesus was the Son all through His life. Even before His baptism He told His parents at age 12. "I must be about my Fathers business".
He was the Son of God at least from birth and pre existed that.
In Psalm 2 it is the pre existing Jesus who is speaking.
Psalm 2:7 I will proclaim the Lord’s decree:
He said to me, “You are my son;
today I have become your father.

Brian2, when a child is ADOPTED, the words, ‘I have become your Father’ are exactly what is relayed to the child... If Jesus was pre-existent, why would the Father say these words to him?

Probably because at the resurrection (where the passage applies) Jesus is the man who is firstborn from the dead.
But before that He was the one begotten in Mary by God. His life was put into Mary from God, just as the life of a man is conceived in the a woman. With the case of all others that life is a spirit that is an empty slate but with Jesus the spirit was already fully aware as a being, otherwise He would not be Christ the Lord who came from heaven.
Before His birth we are told:
Michah 5:2 But you, Bethlehem Ephrathah, who are small among the clans of Judah, out of you will come forth for Me One to be ruler over Israel— One whose origins are of old, from the days of eternity.
The pre existing Jesus was around from eternity. This is what John 1:1 tells us. In the beginning was the Word.
He it was who through whom all things were created.
Col 1:15 The Son is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. 16 For in Him all things were created, things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities. All things were created through Him and for Him.…
This is no IT. The passage is speaking of Jesus.
The Word was with God and was not "a god" as the JW Bible says, but was just as God is, the image of the invisible God, inclusive of God's life also, not a dead image or He would not be an just like God at all.
He had the same nature as God then and was the Son then and always has been.

 

[moorea944]

Yes Jesus was made a man under the law. I know that.
What do you mean by: The Godhead is simple.. God - Jesus - man - woman.
Phil 2 does however show us that Jesus pre-existed His life as a man. Read post 13 so that I do not have to repeat it.
What do you say that it means when it says that Jesus was in the form of God?

Jesus was "In the form of God". Dont forget that Jesus was of human nature, and therefore this cannot refer to Christ having a Divine nature. The N.I.V. and other versions of translation of this passage goes seriously wrong here. In passing, it has to be noted that some modern translations designed for 'easy reading', tend to gloss over the precise meaning of the Greek text, and tend to give a paraphrase rather than a translation in certain passages. Phil.2:5-8 is a classic example of this. However, this is not to decry their use in other ways.

That "form" (Greek 'morphe') cannot refer to essential nature is proved by Phil.2:7 speaking of Christ taking on "the form of a servant". He had the form of God, but he took on the form of a servant. The essential nature of a servant is no different to that of any other man. In harmony with the context, we can safely interpret this as meaning that although Jesus was perfect, he had a totally God-like mind, yet he was willing to take on the demeanour of a servant. Some verses later Paul encourages us to become "conformable unto (Christ's) death" (Phil.3:10). We are to share the 'morphe', the form of Christ which he showed in his death. This cannot mean that we are to share the nature which he had then, because we have human nature already. We do not have to change ourselves to have human nature, but we need to change our way of thinking, so that we can have the 'morphe' or mental image which Christ had in his death.

The Greek word 'morphe' means an image, impress or resemblance. Human beings are spoken of as having "a form ('morphe') of Godliness" (2 Tim.3:5). Gal.4:19 speaks of "Christ (being) formed in" believers. Because he had a perfect character, a perfectly God-like way of thinking, Jesus was "in the form of God". Because of this, it was not "robbery" for him to think or know that in this sense he was one with God. The N.I.V. gives a different translation of this phrase, saying that Jesus did not consider equality with God "something to be grasped at". If this translation is correct, (which is also supported by the R.S.V.) then this totally disproves the theory that Jesus was God. According to some translations, Jesus did not for a moment entertain the idea of being equal with God; he knew that he was subject to God, and not co-equal with Him.

So yes, Jesus was in the form of God. Even Paul was too. He told people to watch him on how he acted and to follow him in the way he was, because he knew that he imitated Christ. And Christ imitates his Heavenly Father. We also want to be in a form of God too, but ..... in a way that we can have a spiritual mind and not a carnal mind. To think of heavenly things and not of earthly things. Etc, etc. ......

 

[moorea944]

That is covered by clause 2: ‘He who gives life to someone or something’
God IS the HEAD of Christ (1 Cor 11:3) Just as a FATHER is HEAD of his Son ****What I set this thread to explore but not many seem interested to follow**** So since the Father is head of his Son, how can the Son be EQUAL to his Father?
Brian2, your arguments are getting desperate..., I do not wonder why?

If your claim is that Jesus is Almighty God then how can you also claim that GOD BECAME MAN?

What kind of GOD ‘thing’ are you claiming to be worshipping? Have you been watching too much Netflix Avengers about the son of the Norse God, Odin, ‘sending his son’, Thor!?? Or Greek mythology about Hercules, and other such myths about Gods impregnating human women to produce Son/Man-Gods...?

Phil 2 does not speak of what you say. Jesus was ANOINTED BY GOD THE FATHER... The Father laid His power upon his Son JUST AS HE ANNOUNCED IT hundreds of years earlier:

• ‘Behold my Servant whom I have chosen. I WILL PUT MY SPIRIT ON HIM. And he shall bring justice to the nations’ (Isaiah 42:1)

Brian2, God, who is Spirit and the the Father of all good things, created a physical world for his pleasure. He also created Beings of all sorts but one special creation he called, ‘Man’. God, as Father to mankind, proposed that ONE RIGHTEOUS man from among humanity should rule over mankind and all creation. This one righteous man, he called ‘SON’ BY ADOPTION:

• “And no one takes this honor on himself, but he receives it when called by God, just as Aaron was. ... But God said to him (Jesus), “You are my Son; today I have become your Father.” (Hebrews 5:4-5)

Brian2, when a child is ADOPTED, the words, ‘I have become your Father’ are exactly what is relayed to the child... If Jesus was pre-existent, why would the Father say these words to him?

Soapy, the thing is with trinitarians is that they go into the bible with a trinartian mindset, so they make the bible into that. Not wanting to research other versions or condordances, etc..... They make Jesus God or 100% God and a 100% man at the same time.... things like that... It's sad....