Unveiled Artist
Veteran Member
Thank you. My point is, when you say my faith and yours have a common foundation, if you know your foundation, you should know mine.
Right?
Right?
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How are these Great Beings explained?
- Thread starter loverofhumanity
- Start date
Unveiled Artist
Veteran Member
Do you actually see how you just belittled and put down other religions?
I keep asking this. Do you see it?
Yes we believe all religions come from the same God, God is the Source of all religions. Yes love and unity and compassion are also foundations of all the religions. Yes I mentioned mystical experiences. Ok what is mystical? Your thoughts, you rationalising, your consciounce are all mystical or spiritual in nature. You can reflect and argue about an intellectual reality, an animal cannot because the human being has that mystical paradigm of thought, reflection, pondering, contemplation and meditation. These things are all part of our mystical or spiritual nature. Rationalizing is mystical. We are all mystical, spiritual beings whether we believe in something or not. There is a part of our natures that is not animslistic but 'consciousness or thought'. Yes love is a spiritual or mystical thing as is knowledge and understanding.
Yes love is the foundation. We have kept all the spiritual teachings of all the religions in our Faith. We pray, fast, serve the community etc Only the social laws have been changed such as holy war is not practised, different divorce laws and different administration etc Baha'u'llah abolished holy war because it's dangerous for this age especially with nuclear weapons but Muslims will continue to practice it even though its dangerous. We dont say it's right for them to practice Holy War. another law is stoning. Baha'u'llah abolished these things that makes them not right anymore but we can't force societies to stop stoning.
The fact we believe in the same God or believe in similar truths. So for instance the Dhammapada I love so much as it's all truth. All the Holy Books have so much wisdom to learn from. The Vedas from what I have read I really consider them sacred.
I'm not sure on this statement. Yes certain rituals, dogma and doctrine are not part of our Faith. For instance, in this age when we have massive sources of knowledge through things like the internet and most can read, priesthood has been abolished but we still have leadership just no individuals with power.
???'yet you value expressions? Of other religions. (Which expressions are you referring to?)
Religions do not cause wars people do, mostly through disobedience to their religion. Religions, their spiritual teachings are eternal. But as times change, the social laws become no longer relevant or acceptable. Things like stoning, crucifixion, holy wars were practised in the past but now in an age of education we need social teachings for this age. We have corrective centres so we no longer need to cut off the hand of a thief. In the desert where there were no courts, jail or police, harsh penalties had to be imposed to keep law and order and protect the innocent. So religions of the past, although their spiritual teachings are still relevant still have the same social laws today for an age long passed.
It is these social laws Bahaullah came mainly to UPDATE.
Today we face a multicultural world with an entirely new paradigm. The different religions, races and nationalities come in very close contact with one another so we need to learn how to live together in a multicultural world. Baha'u'llah has brought teachings which promote peace and unity in such a multicultural paradigm.
They are in addition to and an update to bring religion into the 21st century not to abolish or replace other religions.
I told you again and again. I'm a hopeless poster. I will contradict my self a thousand times, making a complete fool of myself in the process but I'm trying please give me that?
I always want to be your friend and Vinayaka's and I never wish anyone but goodwill and to live long and much happiness.
As I said, if you and Vinayaka really want me gone I can leave immediately. But I really think you are both very sincere people.
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I explained that my post was just being factual. There was no intention to belittle any religion. I don't understand such suspicion and mistrust?
Not necessarily. If you believed in God our common foundation would be that yours and my religion both believe in God.
If your religion doesn't believe in God or a higher truth or ultimate reality then we could have our humanity in common and maybe virtues and the golden rule 'do unto others' in common.
Carlita, I hope you do not mind if I can supply you with a couple of points?
Please consider that what loverofhumanity offers in this respect, is but comments you will find in copious abundance from the general population, of what people that follow those Religions themselves struggle with. As a result they have all suffered many Divisions, many believers of these Faiths know this is an issue. Many will say the teachings are not suited for this day.
It is obvious there is much wrong with many aspects of the historical Faiths. Division thus resulted.
Consider prior to the message of the Bab and Baha'u'llah, the need for change was the Message Jesus offered to the Jews and Muhammad offered this advice to the Christians and Jews. When the tree grows old and becomes unproductive, the gardener removes it and plants another.
That really is quite obvious and I wonder why you asked such a question? We have all done the Chinese Whisper experiment at school. An Oral passing of a Message will not survive in Purity of Message, whereas the Written Word will remain Pure. Translation and Interpretation can also flaw the intent of the Pure Word.
The Baha'i Faith teaches the Bible has retained the Spiritual Word of God, but should not be used for a word for word literal interpretation. The Baha'i Faith Elevates all Gods Messages as One with the Message of Baha'u'llah. We hold the Love of all Gods Messengers in the Light of that Oneness.
What is offered to all humanity in the Message of Baha'u'llah, is that we consult in a unity of purpose, to sort out what is Chinese Whispers and what was the original Written Word.
The Jews had Tradition - Christ Challenged them to think with a New Frame of Reference.
The Christians had Tradition - Muhammad Challenged them and the Jews with a New Frame of Reference.
The Muslims had Tradition - Baha'u'llah Challenged them and all Gods Faiths gone before with a New Frame of Reference.
The Writings of the Baha'i Faith also do not Limit Jesus the Christ. "This is that which the Son hath decreed.’ And whatsoever hath proceeded out of His blameless, His truth-speaking, trustworthy mouth, can never be altered".
The Baha'i Faith favors no Prophet above another. No Baha'i feels superior to any other person. We but share a gift that was given to Humanity commencing in 1844 and unfolding from 1863. This is true Unity, we hold no prejudices for race or religion. The gift is not from us, we are not the Messenger.
Again, no Baha'i puts any Religion down, we elevate them to a Oneness in that Love. Imagine a devout Lover of Christ, or of Buddha, or of Zoroaster, or of Muhammad. A Baha'i hold this Love for all of Gods Faiths.
Baha'u'llah says the difference is only what man makes for himself.
No Carlita, the Message of Baha'u'llah will not cause wars as all Holy war has been removed from the Book and Justice in all things now Law.
What causes war is division and prejudices to which the Baha'i does not participate in. This is why a few posts back I offered that silence is better than arguing about Faith.
Thus do you now confirm that it is not wise to argue about differences, if one thinks wars are the result?
Be well and Happy always - Regards Tony
We all have our journey in live. It is a cliché but true. Your country still has a majority of your population that identify as Christian. The values and beliefs of Christianity permeate your country and culture. It is impossible to imagine a country where no religion has existed because there has always been religion. Your existence as well as mine as been tied up with family, education, work and friends. We have the culture we live in. So while many people grow up with no religion, we still live in a community where religious values are part of day to day life.
What I see in my day to day life in my work and social contacts are many people living their lives, some successfully and others not. If we are to live to the best of our abilities we all need to read the reality of our lives and find what works and what doesn't.
I agree that there should be no coercion in religious belief.
The sunshine would be better described as the bounty or blessing of God. We are all dependant on our communities, from a material and social perspective. None of us is an island and few of us could live happily and meaningfully in isolation from civilisation for sustained periods.
Everything has a cause and an origin. As for the need to acknowledge that cause and origin as you have asked, do we need those who are wiser than us to guide us?
That is fair enough. You have asked questions and I am answering. We are having a conversation.
I appreciate the sensitivities around evangelizing and self-righteousness.
I do feel somewhat out of touch with what it might be like for someone in their twenties living a life of faith and how the culture of the church might have changed when I was involved. If it has become a better experience then that is good. Where I live young people are abandoning organised religion en mass. Christianity simply does not have the same credibility anymore.
As for my experience being a Baha'i, my connection to God is through prayer, reading and study of the sacred writings, living the life, sharing my faith, and being engaged in family, work, and community. Being a Baha'i is integral to everything I do. It is not simply a belief, but a way of life.
Eventually? That is life now in my community. We have disparate belief systems as we occupy a common social space, interact with people very different from ourselves, and need to make decisions individually and collectively.
We co-exist in part by avoiding the difficult discussions we are now having, for fear of offending the other. Time will reveal the future of belief. For now the tide is going out for religious belief and the ranks of those who have no belief in God are multiplying.
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Thanks for sharing. Auckland where your version of Hinduism is based in one thousand miles from where I live or two hours flight away so not readily available. I may check it out the next time I'm in Auckland though I'm not up that way often. That brings us back to what we were discussing earlier in the thread about accessibility or availability of a Faith community. In my city, Dunedin, we have about 120,000 people and I'm sure there wasn't any Hindu community present at the time I was searching nearly 30 years ago, but there was a Baha'i and Buddhist community. I know the Hare Krishna's are now established in Dunedin but weren't back then, not that being dressed in coloured robes, beating drums, and chanting Hare Krishna held much appeal.
At the time of my search the Baha'i faith met my need, and part of that was being part of a local Faith community of peers. My experience of the Baha'i Faith was that of a very open and welcoming community. There was a willingness and interest to engage in the types of conversations that have been going on through out this thread.
So along those lines:
(1) Are Hindu communities open and welcoming?
(2) How come such a small proportion of Hindus are not of Indian descent?
I have the impression from what you are saying that it would be hard from a Westerner from an Abrahamic Faith to become a Hindu.
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Can you provide any examples of souls that have reached such an enlightened state?
A major difference is that I don't want to tell you all about Hinduism. Proselytising is outside our paradigm. But sometimes to illustrate the point of vast paradigm differences, maybe I have to.
Indeed. We suffer from that a lot too. The anti-Hindu crowd promotes a lot of false ideas about us. It can get annoying, but mostly I realise it's fear based. You have to realise Islam is probably the most fearbased religion on this planet today.
Unveiled Artist
Veteran Member
It isn't your intent. Do you see what you posted belittles other people's religions? (If it is factual, then your belief puts down other religions?)
Not you, your post.
Unveiled Artist
Veteran Member
Remember, I gave an example of someone who doesn't have those virtues because of lack of empathy and life of others among other things. If I had that foundation and none of the virtues you mentioned in this thread, other than being a human being, what other foundation do we have in common?
1) It will take awhile for any newcomer to feel that welcome at a Hindu temple, as its not a people based place. It's like a tire with spokes, God being at the center, interacting with everyone individually. Nearly everyone goes there to see God, not to see people. Hindus are also generally shy, and the crowd is really flexible. Each time you're there, there are likely far off pilgrims, once a year types, once a month types, and maybe daily types. It's mot a consistent crowd at all. Unlike in western churches, where basically the same people show up once a week, You never know what to expect at a Hindu temple. So even if a newcomer did befriend someone, that person probably won't be there the next time the newcomer comes. So it's not so much we're unfriendly, (during personal worship, that would be the case though as we're concentrating on something else) more just the structure of how a Hindu temple operates. So there are lots of misconceptions. Someone may lament that nobody talked to them, but the 'Silence' signs are all over the temple.
2) Sri Lanka, Malaysia, all the sugar diaspora have it. For westerners trained in Christianity, I think the jump is too big. We do see a lot of Hindu influence, not called Hinduism, like vegetarianism, yoga, and more. The term 'Hindu' has had a British pejorative connotation to it that has been unfortunately quite lasting. Even some Hindu swamis have avoided the term because of it.
Here's a more comprehensive list of temples in New Zealand. Hinduism in New Zealand - Wikipedia
This new emigration/immigration wave is far more urban, so Hindus tend to gather in urban centers, as opposed to rural sugar plantations. There was also a smaller brain drain of professors back in the 60s, 70s.
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They don't talk about it, or rather 'can't' talk about it. Ramana Maharshi, Sri Ramakrishna would be a couple of more famous modern ones. Nearly all sampradayas with Guru lineages consider their satgurus as enlightened. That includes my sampradaya, but again, we don't talk about it much. It turns into some silly ego contest between adherents, like 'My daddy is tougher than your daddy,' One indicator is they have actually lost the 'I' consciousness, and have to 'come out' to refer to the small ego 'I' at all.
Unveiled Artist
Veteran Member
I do know what Bahai teaches and I don't think you are considering my intent and what's on the post but defending loverofhumanity as if what I said attacked him instead.
That is not giving people credit for those who do not suffer from divisions from their faiths as probably indoctrinated people do. When I was in the Church (as I told @loverofhumanity) I did not share the feelings of division that I see on this thread so often. I saw a person and communal relationship with christs. Despite our differences, everyone came together in One Mass in One Body to sit at One Communion.
Divisions are healthy. Wars aren't because of divisions but making people say "you believe what I believe". That's not division.
No. There is a lot of spiritual growth needed in many people who commit acts you disagree with. Yet, when we address the people then hopefully, they will stay in their faith but see their faith helping other people. If we help people within their own religion rather than reconcile their religion, then we have progress.
If not, that's not peace.
Did Moses consider Jews to change to new? Jews, Muslims, and Catholics all wish to keep their same message. It is called tradition. They change themselves because of their religion. They don't change their religion to change their behavior.
Oral tradition is in many many religions and it is a sacred and beautiful and cultural way of keeping the practice and beliefs in the minds and hearts of practitioners. Many religions try not to change tradition. For example, tradition of Catholicism says only a male and female can marry. It's a long tradition they want to keep. Instead of bending to societal laws, they rather keep what they feel is true. I don't agree with it and it is not my right to change them as if what they teach is an old tree needing to be replace.
Okay... I know what you believe. Please (guys) talk to me directly. Saying "what Bahai Faith teaches..." does not tell me what you guys view of the teachings. I can't interview Bahaullah; so, talk to me directly.
It does by loverofhumanity's one post. You don't see it and it does.
No. Bahaullah first says (according to Lover) that he will reconcile other religions and now he says we should think for ourselves?
If what I read from loverofhumanity is true in his post, the stuff in that post causes people to have wars. You don't see it (like every other person) but seeing it on the outside, it's there plain as day. I'm not the only one who pointed it out but the post was more distinct in my point.
Division doesn't cause wars. People do. Many minority religions know their boundaries. They don't try to have a progression in their religion from another person's. That's total disrespect. That causes people to have wars.
Argue means prove the other person wrong. Debate means proving oneself right.
I believe in differences and they do not cause division. We don't need Oneness in all faiths with a common foundation to have no wars. We need mutual respect, keeping one's boundaries, working together, without compromising our beliefs (and letting people reconcile and compromise ours).
That is not giving people credit for those who do not suffer from divisions from their faiths as probably indoctrinated people do. When I was in the Church (as I told @loverofhumanity) I did not share the feelings of division that I see on this thread so often. I saw a person and communal relationship with christs. Despite our differences, everyone came together in One Mass in One Body to sit at One Communion.
Divisions are healthy. Wars aren't because of divisions but making people say "you believe what I believe". That's not division.
No. There is a lot of spiritual growth needed in many people who commit acts you disagree with. Yet, when we address the people then hopefully, they will stay in their faith but see their faith helping other people. If we help people within their own religion rather than reconcile their religion, then we have progress.
If not, that's not peace.
Did Moses consider Jews to change to new? Jews, Muslims, and Catholics all wish to keep their same message. It is called tradition. They change themselves because of their religion. They don't change their religion to change their behavior.
Oral tradition is in many many religions and it is a sacred and beautiful and cultural way of keeping the practice and beliefs in the minds and hearts of practitioners. Many religions try not to change tradition. For example, tradition of Catholicism says only a male and female can marry. It's a long tradition they want to keep. Instead of bending to societal laws, they rather keep what they feel is true. I don't agree with it and it is not my right to change them as if what they teach is an old tree needing to be replace.
Okay... I know what you believe. Please (guys) talk to me directly. Saying "what Bahai Faith teaches..." does not tell me what you guys view of the teachings. I can't interview Bahaullah; so, talk to me directly.
It does by loverofhumanity's one post. You don't see it and it does.
No. Bahaullah first says (according to Lover) that he will reconcile other religions and now he says we should think for ourselves?
If what I read from loverofhumanity is true in his post, the stuff in that post causes people to have wars. You don't see it (like every other person) but seeing it on the outside, it's there plain as day. I'm not the only one who pointed it out but the post was more distinct in my point.
Division doesn't cause wars. People do. Many minority religions know their boundaries. They don't try to have a progression in their religion from another person's. That's total disrespect. That causes people to have wars.
Argue means prove the other person wrong. Debate means proving oneself right.
I believe in differences and they do not cause division. We don't need Oneness in all faiths with a common foundation to have no wars. We need mutual respect, keeping one's boundaries, working together, without compromising our beliefs (and letting people reconcile and compromise ours).
Unveiled Artist
Veteran Member
@loverofhumanity
I'm asking these questions and if you can answer the questions, that would be easier than repeating myself.
It's nothing more than an historic fact that I explained. Read into it what you will.
However, I welcome all criticisms as they will help me improve myself.
My best friends are those who point out my faults and shortcomings and heap blame and revile what I say as they are doing me the greatest favour of helping me to look at my unwisdoms and learn wisdom.
Please, I want you and Vinayaka to openly tell me everything you don't like or feel where I have made blunders and I will be most grateful to you. Please don't hold back.
I see you as a friend even a sister and I am always happy to receive either your praise or blame, it makes no difference.
I never intend to offend or hurt but of the imperfect, I am the most imperfect.
Live long and prosper!
If you had none of the virtues and you don't believe in God then your humanity is what you would have in common.
Not in the context I was mentioning it. I was pointing out that the reason we always quote so much is because today so much has been written.