How are these Great Beings explained?

[loverofhumanity]

I don't remember. that thread has been too long. A simple example from post 4492 above:

"The only things we don't believe in are things which cause harm or injury or violence." I quote you here. So there is harm in cremation, but not in burial? So you're saying you believe in cremation now? Adrian said Baha'i's bury, but are you now changing your mind?

In Siva, in reincarnation, in temple worship, in chakras, in transmutation of forces, in celibacy as a requirement? I could say a lot more of my beliefs here, and you're actually saying you're believing in ALL of them, as I don't see how any are promoting himsa?

In Jesus or Muhammed as being the ONLY prophet? That's not himsa either, and it's pretty clear you don't believe in that.

By things harmful I'm speaking of deliberate things like injury, killing and deliberate acts of violence not burial laws.

I did mention we understand reincarnation differently and it is not one of our beliefs. We believe in celibacy unless a person wishes to marry. We worship but express it differently in our religion and we worship in temples too but there is diversity here.

I think language and terminology are diverse but not truth and reality. I believe we have much more in common than you realise.

We are mostly about learning. To accept all truth as we know very little.

Take transmutation of forces. I Won't and refuse to judge it as untrue or false based on my ignorance of it. It is my responsibility in all fairness to investigate it and look at our own terminology and see if there's any link. It might be something that occurs during meditation or like that I don't know but we are told to learn meditation so maybe there is something we can learn from you.

We are here to learn not to compete or prove each other right or wrong. So we Baha'is would be encouraged to learn all we can and would embrace everything that we know to be true and those things we don't know not to judge.

In my original post I should have mentioned Hinduism not just Krishna but that's my lesson to learn.

However we wish you well, mean no harm and are willing to learn and accept all truth but we Bahais are not all knowing.

 

[Vinayaka]

I always said that to understand the Baha'i Faith properly one needs to investigate the Words of Baha'u'llah with an open and unbiased mind.

You sidestepped my comments, as is common. But I'm used to that. Subtle passive aggressive proselytising too. So do you believe in Hindu temple worship, cremation, or not?

I say the same thing, lol. So do many of the non-Bahai's here. I probably agree with about 80% of what he wrote. There are some great ideas in there, as there are in all peaceful religions.

But many 'I'm right and you're wrong' type of religions say EXACTLY the same thing. The Christians within that mindset lament "If only people would look into Christianity with an open mind." Muslims lament, "If only people would just look into Islam with an open mind."

Whereas I really differ on this. I (and many others, Hindus and more) say, "Don't look into Hinduism at all unless you really feel you have to. Your existing religion that you have is the one for you at this moment in your life. Stick with it, and it will take you far. If you look into other religions too hard, you'll encounter dcontradicting beliefs and you'll just get confused. I don't want to see confusion in you. Besides all that, it's really none of my business to tell you what to do or what to read.

So, once again, we have this strikingly and obvious difference of philosophy. I think that it's none of my business what people believe, and you want to encourage everyone to understand Baha'i' because it's yours, and you think (quite honestly) that we'd all be better off as Baha'i'.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

Prophecies have not been fufilled I said just because it is written doesnt make it true. Nichiren shonin prophesied he was the next Buddha votary. His imprisonment etc was predicted in the lotus. He got arrested for evangelizing in japan which was mostly shinto religion and other buddhist practices.

Historical evidence shows there was a war during his imprisonment in 1271. The prophecy actually came true. The gosho actually has historical truth.

It was written but we can put synchronicities together but in the end it does not work. Prophecies by their nature predict the future. No biblical prophecy has Distinctively happened.

Your link isn't proof. I thought you were giving me an outside link to maybe the History Channel or maybe an archeology record of some sort discovering something in the past we can study physically today.

Prophecies are synchronicities. Give me a Distinct prophecy outside the bible (since the bible can't prove itself true) that came true without making intelligent guesses such as "My Dharma will decay in the future" and low and behold, it is decaying. Prophecy, no. Just common sense.

You don't seem to actually read the details of the link I gave you. It indeed provides verifiable historical evidence, that it precisely was fulfilled. Did you actually looked in to its details?

 

[Vinayaka]

I asked people here what Writings of Baha'u'llah they have read and I never got an answer so I assume the answer is 'I've read nothing but I'm an expert'. Lol you need to study the Words of Baha'u'llah if you want to refute Him.

I'm guessing I've read as much of Baha'u'llah as you have of Hinduism. But I find his language really vague, and archyaic, much like reading Shakespeare.

 

[Vinayaka]

I did mention we understand reincarnation differently and it is not one of our beliefs. We believe in celibacy unless a person wishes to marry. We worship but express it differently in our religion and we worship in temples too but there is diversity here.

And reincarnation is an absolute CORE belief. If i had to put weight on our beliefs, reincarnation would be a 10/10. That belief, in and of itself is cause for an entire paradigm shift. It has to do with who you are, how you approach life, how you treat your fellow man, how you see the world, etc.. It;s an absolute CORE belief.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

You don't seem to actually read the details of the link I gave you. It indeed provides verifiable historical evidence, that it precisely was fulfilled. Did you actually looked in to its details?

You gave me a link to another thread/post you made not an outside link that I can verify outside of personal claim.

What historical evidence that you have that one, gives me the prophecy, two, gives me the year or time period it's supposed to be fulfilled, and three, specify distinctly how it was filled in the past one hundred years to verify it's accuracy in this time period not in Jesus'.

It can't be connect-the-dots. It has to be specific and distinct. I cannot be from any religious text. Religious text are based on morals. The myths, symbolisms, literalism, and all of that are not historical facts but moral stories and messages for people who wish to follow them.

You can try and verify these stories true all you want but just because they are false doesn't mean they can't help you out. Not everything needs to be proven true to be true to you.

I mean that.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

You gave me a link to another thread/post you made not an outside link that I can verify outside of personal claim.

What historical evidence that you have that one, gives me the prophecy, two, gives me the year or time period it's supposed to be fulfilled, and three, specify distinctly how it was filled in the past one hundred years to verify it's accuracy in this time period not in Jesus'.

It can't be connect-the-dots. It has to be specific and distinct. I cannot be from any religious text. Religious text are based on morals. The myths, symbolisms, literalism, and all of that are not historical facts but moral stories and messages for people who wish to follow them.

You can try and verify these stories true all you want but just because they are false doesn't mean they can't help you out. Not everything needs to be proven true to be true to you.

I mean that.

No problem if you do not like to read it in details. It has links to outside as well.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

I asked people here what Writings of Baha'u'llah they have read and I never got an answer so I assume the answer is 'I've read nothing but I'm an expert'. Lol you need to study the Words of Baha'u'llah if you want to refute Him.

For instance, the Book of Certitude clarifies the contradictions but you've never read it. No one here has read it so until you do all you'll see is contradictions. It's the Baha'i Writings that remove these inconsistencies but you're asking us to do it without the Baha'i Writings and that's impossible.

Only a force that comes from God can bring together the conflicting creeds and divisions. Only the Word of God has ever been able to do that.

The key here is "you never read it."

I said at one time you don't read my full posts. You say you do. I gave you that. I didn't refute it. I didn't say you were wrong. It wasn't worth questioning you because I write long posts and I'd be surprised if you read all my posts.

Likewise, you, adrian, and all the rest of the Bahai here quoted so many Bahaullah texts I can't even count. I have other responsibilities outside of the internet (though it may not seem so; but I have my phone on me).

Bahallah's claims from what you all posted on this thread and this thread only does not add up to what these individual religions say of themselves.

You have already said

1. You don't need other people's agreement for you to believe what you do.

So how are you going to understand me or @Vinayaka or anyone on that matter if you don't believe we know more about our faith than you and Bahaullah does?

2. You already said (or failed to understand) why you need people's agreements before reconciling wars etc you feel are based on individual religions.

Of course, I said did you actually had an interfaith talk with the lay people or only those who are bahai christians and bahai muslims?

3. I already told you the Bible, Quran, Vedas, and so forth are not a religious authority over me nor are their practices. So why would I get a light bulb inspiration of "oh, that's what he meant" from you when my interpretation of Bahaullah's text (though beautiful but hard to read with the thees and thous) has no authority over history and it's accuracy.

From all you quoted, I do not see any resemblance of historical facts just beliefs. Bahaullah is cool goals but his method is a contradiction.

4. Again, reading Bahaullah's text isnt' going to give me a "spring of knowledge". You have to talk to me. Not bahaullah. not the Bab. Not Jesus. Not Zues. YOU.

5. Again, I said that I value individual thought rather than collectivism. So, if you want to make a point that I can understand, change the method in delivery. You talk in "we's" and I talk in " Is " nothing wrong with that.

But if you want me to understand you, change it to what you believe. I can't go off of We because all Bahai here have a different interpretation. Even one time you said X and Bahaullah said something completely contrary to what you said.

You must have overlooked that comment because that shocked me in and of itself.

 

[Vinayaka]

Which of Baha'u'llah's Writings are you referring to?

Upon further reflection, I don't think this is fair. It's like asking someone a bit curious about the Bible to have a debate with a Biblical scholar, or for me to ask you to debate with a Vedic scholar. It's a pretty unfair match, don't you think?

 

[loverofhumanity]

You sidestepped my comments, as is common. But I'm used to that. Subtle passive aggressive proselytising too. So do you believe in Hindu temple worship, cremation, or not?

I say the same thing, lol. So do many of the non-Bahai's here. I probably agree with about 80% of what he wrote. There are some great ideas in there, as there are in all peaceful religions.

But many 'I'm right and you're wrong' type of religions say EXACTLY the same thing. The Christians within that mindset lament "If only people would look into Christianity with an open mind." Muslims lament, "If only people would just look into Islam with an open mind."

Whereas I really differ on this. I (and many others, Hindus and more) say, "Don't look into Hinduism at all unless you really feel you have to. Your existing religion that you have is the one for you at this moment in your life. Stick with it, and it will take you far. If you look into other religions too hard, you'll encounter dcontradicting beliefs and you'll just get confused. I don't want to see confusion in you. Besides all that, it's really none of my business to tell you what to do or what to read.

So, once again, we have this strikingly and obvious difference of philosophy. I think that it's none of my business what people believe, and you want to encourage everyone to understand Baha'i' because it's yours, and you think (quite honestly) that we'd all be better off as Baha'i'.

We have temples to and we worship in them. We read the Word of God in our temples and you worship God in yours don't you? So apart from the outward forms we both worship God don't we?

Cremation. So we aren't allowed to cremate unless it's something like a cholera outbreak. We bury our dead and have prayers for them. I assume you too pray for the dead when you cremate them.

I'm saying that what we have in common is a lot of inward truths but the outward expression differs, that's diversity.

So although you do things differently we believe that the God you worship and the God we worship is the same God although you might call God Shiva and us just God.

I haven't deliberately sidestepped your comments just expressed what I believe are things we might have in common.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

No problem if you do not like to read it in details. It has links to outside as well.

Assumptions are the roots of all evils.

I doubt you read all my posts; but, I don't question it because I write long post. Everyone has responsibility outside the internet. What you posted isn't facts. They are claims. Beliefs. Connect the dots. Nothing wrong with that.

Again, why does a belief have to be a fact in order to mean something?

If you believe in symbolism and symbolism taken literally wouldn't make sense, why try to prove a religion is a fact when religions are based on morals?

 

[InvestigateTruth]

1. You don't need other people's agreement for you to believe what you do.

So how are you going to understand me or @Vinayaka or anyone on that matter if you don't believe we know more about our faith than you and Bahaullah does?

.

Look, in our view, Bahaullah is Manifestation of God. This belief does not come from blind imitation. But it comes through investigation. The Bahais investigated Him, read His Books, Historical accounts from witnesses, etc, and according to Their investigation, Bahaullah is the Truth. Once we feel we are sure Bahaullah is the Truth, Why should we think, you or anyone else possibly know more than Bahaullah? It is impossible anybody know more than God. I hope you understand our view. Notice, that, you or anyone else have not been able to show that Bahaullah is not the Truth. You have not been able to disprove Him. All you keep saying is, other Religions do not accept Bahai Faith, and do not agree with Bahaullah. But, since when, God is dependent on other people's agreement?

 

[InvestigateTruth]

Assumptions are the roots of all evils.

I doubt you read all my posts; but, I don't question it because I write long post. Everyone has responsibility outside the internet. What you posted isn't facts. They are claims. Beliefs. Connect the dots. Nothing wrong with that.

Again, why does a belief have to be a fact in order to mean something?

If you believe in symbolism and symbolism taken literally wouldn't make sense, why try to prove a religion is a fact when religions are based on morals?

I am sorry, but i think there is a misunderstanding here. You also read too much in what I wrote.
You are basically saying things I did not say it exactly like this.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Look, in our view, Bahaullah is Manifestation of God. This belief does not come from blind imitation. But it comes through investigation. The Bahais investigated Him, read His Books, Historical accounts from witnesses, etc, and according to Their investigation, Bahaullah is the Truth. Once we feel we are sure Bahaullah is the Truth, Why should we think, you or anyone else possibly know more than Bahaullah? It is impossible anybody know more than God. I hope you understand our view. Notice, that, you or anyone else have not been able to show that Bahaullah is not the Truth. You have not been able to disprove Him. All you keep saying is, other Religions do not accept Bahai Faith, and do not agree with Bahaullah. But, since when, God is dependent on other people's agreement?

Bahaullah is not the truth.
Zues is not the truth.
Jesus is not the truth.
Krishna is not the truth.
Ordin is not the truth.
The Buddha is not the truth.

I do not believe god exists.

Bahaullah's writings does not give me any inspirational and spiritual knowledge that I would need to understand your specific point of view.

Bahaullah would have to be god to know the truth. He is a human like you and I. If you can prove Bahaullah is a manifestation (YOU can prove it not what is written, anyone can do that) then I'll conversate over the logic of your conclusion.

If I had a toss up who made the better claim and made more sense out of Bahaullah and jesus, I'd say Jesus.

Why? Because his teachings are not based on what is written but what is practiced and who is worshiped. His teachings are based on oral law of god not written law of Moses. Christians believe in god not the apostles as god.

and so on and so forth.

I would literally have to take my time to read Bahaullah's writings but the thees and the thous throw me the heck off so not only am I not getting spiritual knowledge, I can't understand literally what he says in many cases to get literal knowledge.

Prophet faiths are different in that there is an intermediary to god. All prophet faiths I know of, all the prophets have passed away. So, I can't question Bahaullah, jesus, and so forth if what their disciples written is what is correct. I mean, I believe in Buddhism 100 percent but I don't see him as a manestation (nor did he say he was) of any god. That's rediculous.

I know what you believe. The problem is you're not taking into consideration what others know about their own faith. Without that, Bahaullah can't make world peace. That simple.

Nothing complicated.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Look, in our view, Bahaullah is Manifestation of God. This belief does not come from blind imitation. But it comes through investigation. The Bahais investigated Him, read His Books, Historical accounts from witnesses, etc, and according to Their investigation, Bahaullah is the Truth. Once we feel we are sure Bahaullah is the Truth, Why should we think, you or anyone else possibly know more than Bahaullah? It is impossible anybody know more than God. I hope you understand our view. Notice, that, you or anyone else have not been able to show that Bahaullah is not the Truth. You have not been able to disprove Him. All you keep saying is, other Religions do not accept Bahai Faith, and do not agree with Bahaullah. But, since when, God is dependent on other people's agreement?

Bahaullah is not the truth.
Zues is not the truth.
Jesus is not the truth.
Krishna is not the truth.
Ordin is not the truth.
The Buddha is not the truth.

I do not believe god exists.

Bahaullah's writings does not give me any inspirational and spiritual knowledge that I would need to understand your specific point of view.

Bahaullah would have to be god to know the truth. He is a human like you and I. If you can prove Bahaullah is a manifestation (YOU can prove it not what is written, anyone can do that) then I'll conversate over the logic of your conclusion.

If I had a toss up who made the better claim and made more sense out of Bahaullah and jesus, I'd say Jesus.

Why? Because his teachings are not based on what is written but what is practiced and who is worshiped. His teachings are based on oral law of god not written law of Moses. Christians believe in god not the apostles as god.

and so on and so forth.

I would literally have to take my time to read Bahaullah's writings but the thees and the thous throw me the heck off so not only am I not getting spiritual knowledge, I can't understand literally what he says in many cases to get literal knowledge.

Prophet faiths are different in that there is an intermediary to god. All prophet faiths I know of, all the prophets have passed away. So, I can't question Bahaullah, jesus, and so forth if what their disciples written is what is correct. I mean, I believe in Buddhism 100 percent but I don't see him as a manestation (nor did he say he was) of any god. That's rediculous.

I know what you believe. The problem is you're not taking into consideration what others know about their own faith. Without that, Bahaullah can't make world peace. That simple.

Nothing complicated.

 

[Vinayaka]

We have temples to and we worship in them. We read the Word of God in our temples and you worship God in yours don't you? So apart from the outward forms we both worship God don't we?

Cremation. So we aren't allowed to cremate unless it's something like a cholera outbreak. We bury our dead and have prayers for them. I assume you too pray for the dead when you cremate them.

I'm saying that what we have in common is a lot of inward truths but the outward expression differs, that's diversity.

So although you do things differently we believe that the God you worship and the God we worship is the same God although you might call God Shiva and us just God.

I haven't deliberately sidestepped your comments just expressed what I believe are things we might have in common.

Our temples are very different. The purpose is different, the interior is different. We have tons of statues by which we invoke God's presence. We believe we can magically invoke his presence. We have many rituals, far fewer books, and entire science, long established Vedic and Agamic methodology of temple worship. The correct Hindu term for temple is Mandir, or Koyil in Tamil. Our temples are Houses of God, where God lives, where God's presence can be felt.

You have one open space with a lot of chairs, we have tons on corners, sanctums, shrines, and no chairs. You have a speakers podium, we have no speakers except on special occasions.

We don't pray much for the dead. We pray they are able to take off and find a new suitable body really soon. Funerals are joyous events. Cremation is done so the soul has no place to hang around in, all confused, thinking it still has a body. If there is no body, it can hardly do that. Abrahamic graveyards are home to a lot of ghosts, confused souls expecting something that didn't happen.

Yes, now you haven't deliberately sidestepped. Usually you do come back once I point it out. lol.

Again, the two paradigms are incredibly different. Your paradigm is much much closer top the Abrahamic one. Perhaps the more I share my beliefs, the more you will be able to see that.

The celibacy reference I made had to do with holy men specifically, not celibacy in general, but yes we do have premarital celibacy, and faithfulness in marriage. But with holy men, as I mentioned to Adrian in a previous post, in Hinduism, the greatest wise men, or Gurus, are all celibate. This, in Hindu terms, eliminates Baha'u'llah from qualifying in the same mystical sense. That''s just be definition. He may well have been a great scholar with some wisdom, but that's debatable too.

 

[Vinayaka]

The Bahais investigated Him, read His Books, Historical accounts from witnesses, etc, and according to Their investigation, Bahaullah is the Truth.

And lots of non-Baha'i's investigated him, read his books, historical accounts from witnesses, etc. and according to their investigation, Baha'u'llah is not the truth. (Mostly Islamic scholars in the early days)

Both sides hold an opinion, based on their investigations. Neither is truth. It may seem like truth to each side, but it's not. It's opinion, or belief. Both sides use the refrain, "I'm right and you're wrong."

(I'm neutral, preferring to see it for what it is, illustrated above.)

 

[InvestigateTruth]

Bahaullah is not the truth.
Zues is not the truth.
Jesus is not the truth.
Krishna is not the truth.
Ordin is not the truth.
The Buddha is not the truth.

I do not believe god exists.

All the above are your own belief, and no body should ever force you to change. Anybody is entitled to their own belief.

Bahaullah's writings does not give me any inspirational and spiritual knowledge that I would need to understand your specific point of view.

Not that I say, you must read Bahaullah's Writing, because that is up to you. But, generally, no body would find any inspirational or spiritual knowledge from any sourcr, unless they read and think about it.

Bahaullah would have to be god to know the truth. He is a human like you and I.

Bahaullah say, He is Like a Mirror, showing the image of God. Thus whatever God says, or Wills, it appears in This Mirror.

If you can prove Bahaullah is a manifestation (YOU can prove it not what is written, anyone can do that) then I'll conversate over the logic of your conclusion.

No body can prove to anyone else Bahaullah is Manifestation of God. Only through individual and independent investigation, a person may eventually conclude that Bahaullah is Manifestation of God. I do not believe, anybody ever proved to any Bahai, that Bahaullah is Manifestation.

If I had a toss up who made the better claim and made more sense out of Bahaullah and jesus, I'd say Jesus.

That is up to you what you want to think. But it seem you know much less about Bahai Scriptures than Bible, right?

Why? Because his teachings are not based on what is written but what is practiced and who is worshiped. His teachings are based on oral law of god not written law of Moses. Christians believe in god not the apostles as god.

The Bahais accept divinity of Jesus, though they believe His mission was for older Ages. Bahaullah's Laws are for this Age.

and so on and so forth.

I would literally have to take my time to read Bahaullah's writings but the thees and the thous throw me the heck off so not only am I not getting spiritual knowledge, I can't understand literally what he says in many cases to get literal knowledge.

No problem. This is what Bahaullah said about Abdulbaha:

"Verily, I have appointed One Who is the Center of My Covenant. All must obey Him; all must turn to Him; He is the Expounder of My Book, and He is informed of My purpose. All must turn to Him. Whatsoever He says is correct, for, verily, He knoweth the texts of My Book. Other than He, no one doth know My Book."

So, the Bahais in order to understand Bahaullah's Writings, they read Abdulbaha's explanations which are written in a way, that makes the Writings of Bahaullah clear for us.

.

Prophet faiths are different in that there is an intermediary to god. All prophet faiths I know of, all the prophets have passed away. So, I can't question Bahaullah, jesus, and so forth if what their disciples written is what is correct. I mean, I believe in Buddhism 100 percent but I don't see him as a manestation (nor did he say he was) of any god. That's rediculous.

.

I understand what you mean. But the case for Bahaullah's Revelation is really different. Because firstly, the Writings of Bahaullah were written in His time, and they have been authenticated, so we have His original writings, and His number of works are about 17000, which covers literally any subject or question one may have, and additionally, Abdulbaha and Shoghi Effendy, who are infallible according to Bahaullah, wrote about 100 other Books, which explains the details farther. So, for Bahais, we do not have the problems that other Religions have.

.

I know what you believe. The problem is you're not taking into consideration what others know about their own faith. Without that, Bahaullah can't make world peace. That simple.

Nothing complicated.

Surely, the central persons of Bahai Faith asked Bahais to also learn Bible and Quran. So, off course we take in to consideration what others believe, but why do you think, just because we have a different interpretations, we are not considering other's beliefs? Do we have to just agree with other's interpretations, if we feel they are incorrect? We believe we can discuss. We say why we interpret them this way, and other's may tell us about their's. What harm is in this?

 

[Vaderecta]

How do we explain these Great Beings: Buddha, Moses, Krishna, Christ, Zoroaster, Muhammad, the Bab & Bahaullah? They are somewhat unique and unparalleled in human history and were clearly not ordinary people.

There are famous people in history, famous artists, musicians and scientists but none can compare to the influence of the Educator, Teacher, Messiah or Prophet.

But Who were they? And why were they and still are so influential throughout history? Why did they inspire civilizations? Why have their scriptures become patterns of life followed daily by billions of people for thousands of years?

What gift did they possess to be able to be persecuted, oppressed, tortured, exiled and crucified by the most despotic and powerful leaders of their age with but a handful of followers and yet eventually triumph over adversity and establish Their Cause all over the world?

Statues, Churches, Temples, Pagodas, Mosques and Synagogues are built all over the world to pay tribute to these Great Souls.

Are they from another world? Did they pre exist? Without a special power how could they have accomplished what they did and who is their equal in influence?

And aren't we in dire need of another Great Spiritual Teacher to revive us spiritually?

Genghis khan killed so many people we can track it by the decrease in carbon dioxide.

Mongol Invasion in 1200 Altered Carbon Dioxide Levels

Who were these people? What special power did Alexander the Great have? What about our Modern Trump? The leader of the free world!

 

[InvestigateTruth]

And lots of non-Baha'i's investigated him, read his books, historical accounts from witnesses, etc. and according to their investigation, Baha'u'llah is not the truth. (Mostly Islamic scholars in the early days)

Both sides hold an opinion, based on their investigations. Neither is truth. It may seem like truth to each side, but it's not. It's opinion, or belief. Both sides use the refrain, "I'm right and you're wrong."

(I'm neutral, preferring to see it for what it is, illustrated above.)

So, everyone is responsible for themselves, and should conclude for themselves. You cannot say Bahaullah is or is not the truth based on investigation of others. You may only conclude, if you choose to investigate independently.