How are these Great Beings explained?

[Dawnofhope]

hanks for replying. I agree with most of it. The entire universe is God's emanation, so yes He gets credit, because it is Him. Obviously, since I'm not a Baha'i' nor believe in prophets, I can't agree with that part. As to God inspiring all, I think it's rude to say that to an atheist. He'd most certainly disagree.

It is important to make the distinction between God and His prophets, otherwise misunderstandings arise. So we agree that the entire universe is God's emanation.

Emanation is a beautiful word really. in regards to meaning:

1. 1.
   something which originates or issues from a source.
   
   
2. 2.
   (in various mystical traditions) a being or force which is a manifestation of God.
   "they believe that each human soul is an emanation of Godhood"

Some Hindus are atheists. What are your thoughts about Hindu atheists?

But Gandhi, and all other theistic peacemakers are inspired by God.

Are there degrees of inspiration? Clearly the Abrahamics see their prophets as being inspired or emanating from God to the greatest extent, although the language would be different.

For many Hindus, the spiritual realm is not unseen, but seen. That's where deep advanced mysticism enters the picture.

I agree that it is possible to see unseen realms and have mystical experiences. However is that always a good thing? Could it divert people's attention away from the betterment of humanity and their duties in life?

I would argue that the prophets all had intense mystical experiences.

 

[Dawnofhope]

No it wouldn't. If god existed, people can still find love without him regardless. It should be a choice not an ultimatum.

People can find love without God for certain.

According to the Baha'i Faith the purpose of life is to know and worship God. So wile we are free to ignore our purpose at some stage we are faced with reality.

I honestly think it's hard for you to say a person can only find love of god if they believe in god.

The sunshine and rain falls on the believer and non-believer alike. Does it matter if we recognise and worship the source of our being?

If there is such love outside the love of god, what is it? If you believe god is all there is and defines love for everyone etc?

According to @Vinayaka everything in the universe emanates from God. The reality of this life is true whether we believe or not. The earth revolves around the sun whether we ac knowledge it or not.

Yes, we could. Many people aren't religious and don't believe in a religion and get along and grow up just fine.

That it because our culture is influenced by Christian values. Non-Christians are free to pick and choose, whereas Christians are bound by their doctrines and dogmas that they feel obliged to follow.

Eventually we all need to connect with our purpose which is spiritual.

 

[Vinayaka]

Don't you see many fall into error by blind belief?

lol, Yes, I certainly do.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Yes, for a fact, there are historical evidence.

Here is another one:
Comparing Biblical/Religious Prophecies with History

Prophecies have not been fufilled I said just because it is written doesnt make it true. Nichiren shonin prophesied he was the next Buddha votary. His imprisonment etc was predicted in the lotus. He got arrested for evangelizing in japan which was mostly shinto religion and other buddhist practices.

Historical evidence shows there was a war during his imprisonment in 1271. The prophecy actually came true. The gosho actually has historical truth.

It was written but we can put synchronicities together but in the end it does not work. Prophecies by their nature predict the future. No biblical prophecy has Distinctively happened.

Your link isn't proof. I thought you were giving me an outside link to maybe the History Channel or maybe an archeology record of some sort discovering something in the past we can study physically today.

Prophecies are synchronicities. Give me a Distinct prophecy outside the bible (since the bible can't prove itself true) that came true without making intelligent guesses such as "My Dharma will decay in the future" and low and behold, it is decaying. Prophecy, no. Just common sense.

 

[Vinayaka]

1) It is important to make the distinction between God and His prophets, otherwise misunderstandings arise. So we agree that the entire universe is God's emanation.

2) Some Hindus are atheists. What are your thoughts about Hindu atheists?

3) Are there degrees of inspiration? Clearly the Abrahamics see their prophets as being inspired or emanating from God to the greatest extent, although the language would be different.

4) I agree that it is possible to see unseen realms and have mystical experiences. However is that always a good thing? Could it divert people's attention away from the betterment of humanity and their duties in life?

5) I would argue that the prophets all had intense mystical experiences.

1) Since I don't believe in prophets, that's not important to me. The distinction in Hinduism is one of manifest and unmanifest, and also temporary and permanent.

2) Never a problem in Hinduism, as we're about 100 religions under one umbrella term.

3) Yes there are degrees, as souls mature they have higher degrees of inspiration. But again, Hindus don't believe in prophets. Paul Brunton's book 'A Search in Secret India' is a good read for that.

4) We don't get caught up in the siddhis, (powers) or the experiences as 'the goal'. It's just natural stuff along the way. So yes, it's a side track, as are miracles.

5) Again, I don't believe in prophets. Again, in Hinduism celibacy is a requirement. Mystic experiences of this intensity only happen in the Vishuddah chakra and above, namely in the Sahaswara, or even above that. Kundalini energy rises up the sushumna current, and it's the same sexual energy propelling it upward. As kundalini rises, awareness or consciousness goes up as well. The starting point is the muladhara chakra at the base of the spine. When this sexual energy is released downward, there is none left to go up. This is the mystical reasoning behind ceibacy. That energy is transmuted into higher spiritual energy. Only the rarest of souls can attain that degree of will, and it is rarely spoken of, because that withdraws everything out and into the intellect instead of the rarified superconscious, where true knowledge exists, and the body of the soul is, in all it's effulgent splendour.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Do you actually believe people cannot live without religion? Not everyone is in a religious influence environment. I wasn't even raised in any religion and was isolated from any religious influence because of my seizures and hospital visits. I had no need to know religion. If anything, religion didn't really "exist" to me. When my mother wanted to have the perfect family (seriously: a picket fence, a labor dog, a boy and a girl in a christian family) she took us to church. I studied but knew no religion.

I grew up just fine. If I had not met my friend, I would never been religious nor have christianity background. I grown up just fine.

You're not giving people credit. Everything doesn't revolve around god.

According to the Baha'i Faith the purpose of life is to know and worship God. So wile we are free to ignore our purpose at some stage we are faced with reality.

It's your belief but it's not a fact. That's saying that one day I will have to face reality. I disagree with any form of worship. It would be forced on me.

The sunshine and rain falls on the believer and non-believer alike. Does it matter if we recognise and worship the source of our being?

Yes. I don't see the sunshine as god. God is different in different religions and do not overlap. (Sorry, have to repeat: they don't overlap) "Source of our Being"? What is that? and why the need to worship?

According to @Vinayaka everything in the universe emanates from God. The reality of this life is true whether we believe or not. The earth revolves around the sun whether we ac knowledge it or not.

I don't share @Vinayaka's belief. What we do have in common is our morals of not evangelizing and no "I-am-right" religions. Other than that, unless he tells me more about his belief, that's his.

That it because our culture is influenced by Christian values. Non-Christians are free to pick and choose, whereas Christians are bound by their doctrines and dogmas that they feel obliged to follow.

Christians aren't bound by their teachings and traditions. They follow it because many want to follow it. I know many people have been indoctrinated especially older people but the younger Church doesn't have that same feel you guys are saying. Doctrine and Dogma (just as Bahaullah's doctrine and the practices of your faith, your dogma) is a part of many religions. It's the culture, traditions, and language that shapes religions of what they are now.

How are you not bound to god and your faith if that is what you belief is true? How can you separate yourself from being a Bahai? Can you?

Eventually we all need to connect with our purpose which is spiritual.

That's your belief. It's a "one day they will come to know the truth" statement. Christians make it a lot. It's not attractive. Eventually, people will know not everyone needs to think alike to get along. Eventually, people will understand not everyone will come to spiritually. Eventually, people won't make others under their one-party system.

Eventually.

 

[Vinayaka]

I don't share @Vinayaka's belief. What we do have in common is our morals of not evangelizing and no "I-am-right" religions. Other than that, unless he tells me more about his belief, that's his.

Yes. I thought that was pretty clear all along. It's the 'other religions foretell of Baha'u'llah' disagreement with Baha'i's that we have in common. That, and as you said, our approach to interfaith. (Live and let live.) I would rarely ever agree with a Christian, or a Muslim, (I was giving my Ammadiya friend Paarsurrey points in another thread on this, as he was pointing out how Baha'i's had reinvented the Qaran for their purposes ... never in a coon's age did I ever think I'd be giving him points, lol) but on this point, absolutely I agree. So we're very different. That's part of the theme.

Then along comes the Baha'i', saying, 'I agree with you, and I agree with you too, and with you, and you too.', all the time not seeing any contradictions. It's a fascinating mindset.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

First, there is nothing vague in Biblical Prophecies. They are symbolic or Figurative, and the symbols have certain meanings. In most cases, the meaning of the symbols can be known from other verses, so, it is not like symbols or parable are just nonsense. They are meaningful.

When you say ' You can make vague conclusions and any person can be the promised one', this is again a hypothetical statement. Look, there is no one else that can Match all the Prophecies. Just find another Person, and show how it matches 2 or 3 of the signs of the Return of Christ, to prove your point. Just try.....

They are vague. Symbolism and figurative language isn't specific. It's based on context not accuracy and definitely not all facts. It's meaningful but don't mistake that for a historical fact. Being religious in nature does not make it a historical fact. It's about morals.

I don't understand. If you value symbolism what's wrong with making my points in hypothetical statements? Do you get my points?

There are no prophets and prophecies. That's your belief but it's not a historical thing. I can write down and predict we will be at war and kill each other in the next five thousand centuries. When that date occurs and the last person standing says "eurika! the prophecy has been fulfilled" that's their synchronizing what I said to an event that is out of my and their control.

If you find meaning in syncronicities and it helps you verify your faith, that's fine. I don't agree that you ned prophets, historical evidence, and things to have a belief you hold true. I just value that I have a belief and accept it as such because it is not yours and it's not loverofhumanity so it is not universal. I believe it is but the fact is, unless it's the sunshine above two people who believe what I do and one who does not, it can't be proven it is.

BUT what I do know is many many religions practice and belief in the spirits of our environment and interact with our ancestors. I know it is true and so do they. Does this mean it is true? No. Religion doesn't work that way. I believe it is and I base this belief on my experiences and my experiences aren't fake.

But it's not based on prophets. I don't understand that. It's all synchronicity. Nothing wrong with finding value in connecting dots. Just make sure they all flow into each other.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Yes. I thought that was pretty clear all along. It's the 'other religions foretell of Baha'u'llah' disagreement with Baha'i's that we have in common. That, and as you said, our approach to interfaith. (Live and let live.) I would rarely ever agree with a Christian, or a Muslim, (I was giving my Ammadiya friend Paarsurrey points in another thread on this, as he was pointing out how Baha'i's had reinvented the Qaran for their purposes ... never in a coon's age did I ever think I'd be giving him points, lol) but on this point, absolutely I agree. So we're very different. That's part of the theme.

Then along comes the Baha'i', saying, 'I agree with you, and I agree with you too, and with you, and you too.', all the time not seeing any contradictions. It's a fascinating mindset.

Paarsurrey actually said that? Now I really dont know whst to say. You know, honestly the Universist Uniterian Church doesnt put all religions under one boat. Maybe there are different types of universalist I guess.

 

[Vinayaka]

Paarsurrey actually said that? Now I really dont know whst to say. You know, honestly the Universist Uniterian Church doesnt put all religions under one boat. Maybe there are different types of universalist I guess.

Not very familiar with Unitarian Universalist. I have run into quite intolerant universalists, ironically, but within Hinduism. Some sects are more universalist leaning than others. It it's 'my version is the right version' I don't really care whether it's universalist or orthodox/traditional, it still speaks of intolerance.

In previous smaller discussions, I've heard that it varies a lot from congregation to congregation. But who knows, really?

 

[loverofhumanity]

lol, Yes, I certainly do.

Yes. I thought that was pretty clear all along. It's the 'other religions foretell of Baha'u'llah' disagreement with Baha'i's that we have in common. That, and as you said, our approach to interfaith. (Live and let live.) I would rarely ever agree with a Christian, or a Muslim, (I was giving my Ammadiya friend Paarsurrey points in another thread on this, as he was pointing out how Baha'i's had reinvented the Qaran for their purposes ... never in a coon's age did I ever think I'd be giving him points, lol) but on this point, absolutely I agree. So we're very different. That's part of the theme.

Then along comes the Baha'i', saying, 'I agree with you, and I agree with you too, and with you, and you too.', all the time not seeing any contradictions. It's a fascinating mindset.

There seems to be an aweful lot of truth in most religions so we agree with it. It's not agreeing for agreements sake but because we really sincerely believe in most aspects of other Faiths.

The only things we don't believe in are things which cause harm or injury or violence.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Not very familiar with Unitarian Universalist. I have run into quite intolerant universalists, ironically, but within Hinduism. Some sects are more universalist leaning than others. It it's 'my version is the right version' I don't really care whether it's universalist or orthodox/traditional, it still speaks of intolerance.

In previous smaller discussions, I've heard that it varies a lot from congregation to congregation. But who knows, really?

Yeah. Who really knows. What I love about focusing my spirituality on honoring those who passed, family in spirit, and spirit is that many religions have this same belief whether ita the core of it or a cultural norm. Its not an agreed underling foundations in all faiths and at least I can say that. I do see a pattern and think its beautiful even to build my own faith in my culture and personal views thereof.

There ya go

 

[Vinayaka]

It's not agreeing for agreements sake but because we really sincerely believe in most aspects of other Faiths.

Yes, I noticed. Even when they directly undisputedly no doubt whatsoever contradict each other, you guys can somehow agree with both sides. It's truly amazing. Something like having two wives I suppose.

Does remind me of India's cab drivers who can change their religion in two seconds flat. (They are always the same religion as their fare.)

 

[loverofhumanity]

Yes, I noticed. Even when they directly undisputedly no doubt whatsoever contradict each other, you guys can somehow agree with both sides. It's truly amazing. Something like having two wives I suppose.

Does remind me of India's cab drivers who can change their religion in two seconds flat. (They are always the same religion as their fare.)

The thing is the seeming contradiction often comes down to how the Holy Books are interpreted. The interpretations of Baha'u'llah can reconcile many of the conflicting beliefs paving the way for unity. Also we see religion as one process and the diversity of religion like a garden full of different coloured flowers or a beautiful song composed of varying notes.

 

[Vinayaka]

The thing is the seeming contradiction often comes down to how the Holy Books are interpreted. The interpretations of Baha'u'llah can reconcile many of the conflicting beliefs paving the way for unity. Also we see religion as one process and the diversity of religion like a garden full of different coloured flowers or a beautiful song composed of varying notes.

Yes, I know what you believe. But generally it boils down to agreeing with the person you're talking to at the moment. On a forum it doesn't work that well, because I can read what you said to Carlita, and she can read what you say to me. Together we can read the contradictions. It may be the polite thing to do, but it comes across as simply not actually knowing what you believe. I've had to dig deeper a lot here, just to find out what you actually believed. Most of it is clouded in vague indecisive language.

Calling it a seeming contradiction doesn't mean it's not a contradiction. It's just your opinion.

 

[loverofhumanity]

Yes, I know what you believe. But generally it boils down to agreeing with the person you're talking to at the moment. On a forum it doesn't work that well, because I can read what you said to Carlita, and she can read what you say to me. Together we can read the contradictions. It may be the polite thing to do, but it comes across as simply not actually knowing what you believe. I've had to dig deeper a lot here, just to find out what you actually believed. Most of it is clouded in vague indecisive language.

Calling it a seeming contradiction doesn't mean it's not a contradiction. It's just your opinion.

Which of Baha'u'llah's Writings are you referring to?

 

[Unveiled Artist]

The thing is the seeming contradiction often comes down to how the Holy Books are interpreted.

They ARE contradictions. Bahai is a small religion compared to the rest of the world and even univeralist unitarians understand the Actual contradictions of each members faiths...yet they come together in worship in mutual respect snd social understanding.

The interpretations of Baha'u'llah can reconcile many of the conflicting beliefs paving the way for unity

He can only reconcile conflicting religions if those religious and their text agree there is a contradiction to be fixed.

Since they dont agree, your religion is not of peace but forceful reconcilation of faiths opposed to whst bahaullah wants to do with THEIR religion.

Also we see religion as one process and the diversity of religion like a garden full of different coloured flowers or a beautiful song composed of varying notes.

Religious themselves see themselves as different separate gardens on one planet. They know that their differences are not superficial (different colors of the same flower) but distinct flowers in their own garden.

Yes. Everyone has a garden on the same planet. That is as far as it goes. Planting different flowers in someone elses garden to make unity is wrong. Its not your right.

Its not a christians right
Its not a muslims right
Its not Nichren buddhist right

Dont know any other religions that are evangelical at the moment.

You can See whatever but what you see is not always what is real. How do you know? Ask the religious if they agree. If they dont, there is NO reconcilation. Thats just disrespectful in terms.

 

[Vinayaka]

Which of Baha'u'llah's Writings are you referring to?

I don't remember. that thread has been too long. A simple example from post 4492 above:

"The only things we don't believe in are things which cause harm or injury or violence." I quote you here. So there is harm in cremation, but not in burial? So you're saying you believe in cremation now? Adrian said Baha'i's bury, but are you now changing your mind?

In Siva, in reincarnation, in temple worship, in chakras, in transmutation of forces, in celibacy as a requirement? I could say a lot more of my beliefs here, and you're actually saying you're believing in ALL of them, as I don't see how any are promoting himsa?

In Jesus or Muhammed as being the ONLY prophet? That's not himsa either, and it's pretty clear you don't believe in that.

 

[loverofhumanity]

Yes, I know what you believe. But generally it boils down to agreeing with the person you're talking to at the moment. On a forum it doesn't work that well, because I can read what you said to Carlita, and she can read what you say to me. Together we can read the contradictions. It may be the polite thing to do, but it comes across as simply not actually knowing what you believe. I've had to dig deeper a lot here, just to find out what you actually believed. Most of it is clouded in vague indecisive language.

Calling it a seeming contradiction doesn't mean it's not a contradiction. It's just your opinion.

I always said that to understand the Baha'i Faith properly one needs to investigate the Words of Baha'u'llah with an open and unbiased mind.

 

[loverofhumanity]

They ARE contradictions. Bahai is a small religion compared to the rest of the world and even univeralist unitarians understand the Actual contradictions of each members faiths...yet they come together in worship in mutual respect snd social understanding.



He can only reconcile conflicting religions if those religious and their text agree there is a contradiction to be fixed.

Since they dont agree, your religion is not of peace but forceful reconcilation of faiths opposed to whst bahaullah wants to do with THEIR religion.



Religious themselves see themselves as different separate gardens on one planet. They know that their differences are not superficial (different colors of the same flower) but distinct flowers in their own garden.

Yes. Everyone has a garden on the same planet. That is as far as it goes. Planting different flowers in someone elses gsrden go make unity is wrong. Its not your right.

Its not a christians right
Its not a muslims right
Its not Nichren buddhist right

Dont know any other religions that are evangelical at the moment.

You can See whatever but what you see is not always what is real. How do you know? Ask the religious if they agree. If they dont, there is NO reconcilation. Thats just disrespectful in terms.

I asked people here what Writings of Baha'u'llah they have read and I never got an answer so I assume the answer is 'I've read nothing but I'm an expert'. Lol you need to study the Words of Baha'u'llah if you want to refute Him.

For instance, the Book of Certitude clarifies the contradictions but you've never read it. No one here has read it so until you do all you'll see is contradictions. It's the Baha'i Writings that remove these inconsistencies but you're asking us to do it without the Baha'i Writings and that's impossible.

Only a force that comes from God can bring together the conflicting creeds and divisions. Only the Word of God has ever been able to do that.