How are these Great Beings explained?

[loverofhumanity]

You just looked over my point.

I disagree with "you are wrong" as confrontational and discourteous.

You do. How does the two go together?

No argument. No fussing. Just polite disagreement just as saying you are wrong about my being a male if you were to say I were.

Nothing wrong with that.

There's no point in saying someone's wrong without offering an alternative viewpoint which I always do. I just don't rush to judgement of others beliefs.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

If you believe moses and bahaullah. Read a out gods attributes through them since they are human and find those attributes and communication with god directly by their Example.

One of my therapist told me years ago. The point of going to therapy is NOT to go to therapy. People depend on the prophet and forget the prophet is telling you what you can do for ourselves.

The point of the prophet is not to go to the prophet.Jesus and Muhammad referred to the creator.

Exactly.

Jesus meditated and prayed directly to his father.

Yes, this is what Jesus said:

"Though you do not know him, I know him. If I said I did not, I would be a liar like you, but I do know him and obey his word."

"All things have been entrusted to Me by My Father. No one knows the Son except the Father, and no one knows the Father except the Son and those to whom the Son chooses to reveal Him."matt. 21:27


This is exactly what Bahaullah says
no one knows God except through His Manifestations.

So, it is not possible to know God directly according to the Manifestations.
But why Only through Manifestations? Why not us?
Bahaullah explains why. He says, our Heart may be likened to a mirror. If the mirror of the heart is facing towards worldly things, and if its mirror has dirt on it, it cannot show the image of God.
The Mirror of the Manifestations though, is not facing towards the Worldly things, the way ordinary people's are. Their Mirror is facing God of Heaven, and is a perfectly clean Mirror, thus They fully Reflect the image of God, His attributes and Will. So, if we know the Manifestation, we know God.

Think of it this way. If you have a clean mirror in your hand and face it toward the Sun of the sky, what image appears in it? You would see the image of sun in the mirror. But if you have an unclean mirror in your hand, facing downward, and toward the earth, do you still the Sun in the Mirror? No. The heart of ordinary people is often set towards the worldly things.

 

[loverofhumanity]

Yes yes yes! We absolutely can.

How do you know it's God and not just your idea of God that you worship?

 

[Vinayaka]

How do you know it's God and not just your idea of God that you worship?

Different paradigms, and the same question can be asked of all things religious. How do we 'know anything? In Hinduism God is closer than your breath.

How do you 'know' there is a God?
How do you 'know' Baha'u'llah was what he said he was?
How do 'you' know there is such a thing as soul? As heaven? As hell?

So this 'know' can only be on some deeper intuitive level. It's absolutely not logical, but neither can it be refuted by logic.

 

[Vinayaka]

There's no point in saying someone's wrong without offering an alternative viewpoint which I always do. I just don't rush to judgement of others beliefs.

I would rarely say anyone is wrong on religious views. Just differing viewpoints, and leave it at that. To me, that stance makes far more sense. You like Toyota, I like Hyundai, big deal. Neither is wrong.

This trying to prove your view is more valid than the other person's gets so tedious. Not only that, it's impossible.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Exactly.


Yes, this is what Jesus said:

"Though you do not know him, I know him. If I said I did not, I would be a liar like you, but I do know him and obey his word."

"All things have been entrusted to Me by My Father. No one knows the Son except the Father, and no one knows the Father except the Son and those to whom the Son chooses to reveal Him."matt. 21:27


This is exactly what Bahaullah says
no one knows God except through His Manifestations.

So, it is not possible to know God directly according to the Manifestations.
But why Only through Manifestations? Why not us?
Bahaullah explains why. He says, our Heart may be likened to a mirror. If the mirror of the heart is facing towards worldly things, and if its mirror has dirt on it, it cannot show the image of God.
The Mirror of the Manifestations though, is not facing towards the Worldly things, the way ordinary people's are. Their Mirror is facing God of Heaven, and is a perfectly clean Mirror, thus They fully Reflect the image of God, His attributes and Will. So, if we know the Manifestation, we know God.

Think of it this way. If you have a clean mirror in your hand and face it toward the Sun of the sky, what image appears in it? You would see the image of sun in the mirror. But if you have an unclean mirror in your hand, facing downward, and toward the earth, do you still the Sun in the Mirror? No. The heart of ordinary people is often set towards the worldly things.

You would not follow bahaullah if you followed jesus teachings. He did not say depend on the prophets and worship him.

They talked and heard god directly. Its only been little more than 2000 years. Why cant you?

 

[Unveiled Artist]

There's no point in saying someone's wrong without offering an alternative viewpoint which I always do. I just don't rush to judgement of others beliefs.

Again, how is saying "you are wrong" judgemental?

 

[Unveiled Artist]

That's fine. But to me that's like saying 'I can just look at food to get nourishment, I don't need to eat it'. I don't think you can get spiritual nourishment adequately without reading the Word of God an putting into practice His Teachings for each age.

If you believe the truth of other religions, this woule not be an issue.

Not everyone who speaks to god needs a book about it. You can eat food without reading how good it tastes.

People have wars over religious books. Take out the books, no wars, more thinking for oneself snd self reflecting.

Cant hide behind a book.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

You would not follow bahaullah if you followed jesus teachings. He did not say depend on the prophets and worship him.

In Bahai View, Bahaullah is the return of Christ.
There is a sense of exclusiveness in claims of Jesus. In our view this exclusiveness is related to God, who Manifested His image in Jesus. Now, He manifested Himself in Bahaullah. Why do you think God only Manifested Himself in Jesus?

 

[InvestigateTruth]

I do not believe it exists.

I can see that you do not believe, and off course you are entitled to believe or disbelieve. But why do you think, if you cannot believe it exists, it certainly means that, it does not exist?

It's hard to accept something that does not exist.

If they did not exist, then we must not accept. But the fact is, Bahaullah fulfilled all the signs and prophecies related to Manifestation of all religions. All we need to investigate those signs and prophecies to see they match Him.

If they did, they would not be greater than me. How could they?

Would you say, the Sun, the Moon, the stars, and the planets are all equal? The Sun has its own light. The Moon gets its light from the Sun. How can you say the Source of Light, is the same as the ones who are not its Source?

 

[Vinayaka]

But the fact is, Bahaullah fulfilled all the signs and prophecies related to Manifestation of all religions.

People are entitle to their BELIEF, but to state them as facts is overdoing it. This is not a fact, but a Baha'i' belief. No other religion believes this.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

In Bahai View, Bahaullah is the return of Christ.
There is a sense of exclusiveness in claims of Jesus. In our view this exclusiveness is related to God, who Manifested His image in Jesus. Now, He manifested Himself in Bahaullah. Why do you think God only Manifested Himself in Jesus?

You overlooked that one.

If you followed Jesus there is no Bahai view.

 

[Vinayaka]

You overlooked that one.

If you followed Jesus there is no Bahai view.

But Carlita, you didn't investigate.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

I can see that you do not believe, and off course you are entitled to believe or disbelieve. But why do you think, if you cannot believe it exists, it certainly means that, it does not exist?

It does not. It just makes sense. Everything we believe in has a lot to do with culture, psychology, and our need for connection. It's alright to believe there are higher beings. I don't believe beings exist. What in the world is a being? Is it like a casper? A ghost?

Just doesn't line up. I look outside and think "um, I don't get it." Can't believe in something that doesn't exist to begin with.

If they did not exist, then we must not accept. But the fact is, Bahaullah fulfilled all the signs and prophecies related to Manifestation of all religions. All we need to investigate those signs and prophecies to see they match Him.

Christians say the same thing. It's your belief not your fact. It's what you hold as truth not what is actually true. Accept what you believe is a belief and a fact for yourself and your peers. No one needs to investigate the signs and prophecies to know something does not exist. Claims of gods and beings existence does not make me motivated to find evidence that they do. I'm not the typical atheist. It's not based on lack of evidence, but on evidence to the contrary.

Would you say, the Sun, the Moon, the stars, and the planets are all equal? The Sun has its own light. The Moon gets its light from the Sun. How can you say the Source of Light, is the same as the ones who are not its Source?

They are all equal because they work together. The sun isn't more grand than the earth. We need both to survive. I am no grand than a animal or plant. I need them for food to survive. If anything, that is why I revere nature is because they are what I need to survive. Without my environment and people thereof, I wouldn't be living.

I don't put them above myself. I just am grateful and show my gratitude through my practice and prayer. Once I see myself is above or below, it turns to egotism.

You (or @loverofhumanity) said you don't want to say you disagree because it causes you to think yourself as superior. Yet, by your very words, you just said you were. Context counts.

 

[Vinayaka]

Just when you think you're getting somewhere in this debate, and things seem to be getting somewhat sorted out, more logical, more sensible, humbler, more tolerant ..... watch for it .... out comes the core belief again, presented as fact. It's so predictable.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

You overlooked that one.

If you followed Jesus there is no Bahai view.

Look, that is not a logical argument in my opinion.

The fact is, Jesus made Prophecies about His return, and He has given signs. Bahaullah wrote Books and showed us how He fulfilled the Prophecies. Now, if you say, Bahaullah did not fulfil the Prophecies of return of Christ, you must show from Bible verses, that Bahaullah did not fulfil them. Otherwise all you are saying is that you cannot believe that Bahaullah is the Return of Christ, which, off course you are entitled to your disbelief. But, do you think that, if you cannot believe it, it means it did not happen?

 

[Vinayaka]

Look, that is not a logical argument in my opinion.

The fact is, Jesus made Prophecies about His return, and He has given signs. Bahaullah wrote Books and showed us how He fulfilled the Prophecies. Now, if you say, Bahaullah did not fulfil the Prophecies of return of Christ, you must show from Bible verses, that Bahaullah did not fulfil them. Otherwise all you are saying is that you cannot believe that Bahaullah is the Return of Christ, which, off course you are entitled to your disbelief. But, do you think that, if you cannot believe it, it means it did not happen?

A BILLION Christians have followed their Bible, and at the very least 50 million have studied it in great depth. But they are ALL wrong. Every single one of them are wrong? The only ones who believe as you do are the ones who converted to Baha'i' like Adrian, and I'm guessing they are few and far between since the cultural context of Bahai is Islam.

For the rest, it is a lie, Baha'ullah and his group are irrelevant. They haven't seen any of the prophecies pointing to your prophet.

So too with Islam. Paarsurrey, a moderate Muslim on here, asked for some proof, and there was none.

So how are you not saying, "I'm right and you're wrong." ?

 

[InvestigateTruth]

Just when you think you're getting somewhere in this debate, and things seem to be getting somewhat sorted out, more logical, more sensible, humbler, more tolerant ..... watch for it .... out comes the core belief again, presented as fact. It's so predictable.

I think you read too much in my statement. More than what I wrote. I said, for a fact, Bahaullah matches the signs that were prophesied in other World Religions Scriptures.
Let me demonstrate an example.

Bahaullah wrote that His mission began when He was imprisoned in Siah Chal, which according to history was at the end of 1852. Bahaullah passed away in year 1892.

So, from the time Bahaullah said His mission began till He passed away, there are 40 years.

But now, see thousands years before Bahaullah, in Islamic Sources, it was Prophesied as follows:


“In the last period of time, the Almighty Allah will raise a man among the illiterate masses whom He will support by His angels and protect his helpers, help him through His signs and he will conquer the whole world. All would enter the fold of religion willingly or unwillingly. He would fill the earth with justice, equity and proof. No disbeliever will remain without accepting faith. During his rule, even the wild beasts would become tame.
And the earth will through up its vegetation. Blessings will descend from the sky. The treasures buried in the earth will be exposed and he would rule the world for forty years. Fortunate would be one who lives till that time and hears his speech.”
Shiavault - 31


This was an example, but There are thousands of Prophecies that Match with the Bab and Bahaullah. Now, people may say, it is by chance. This is off course their opinion, and they are entitled to it, but the fact is, Bahaullah matches these signs, regardless if we want to believe it is by chance or not. Is my statement fair now?

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Look, that is not a logical argument in my opinion.

The fact is, Jesus made Prophecies about His return, and He has given signs. Bahaullah wrote Books and showed us how He fulfilled the Prophecies. Now, if you say, Bahaullah did not fulfil the Prophecies of return of Christ, you must show from Bible verses, that Bahaullah did not fulfil them. Otherwise all you are saying is that you cannot believe that Bahaullah is the Return of Christ, which, off course you are entitled to your disbelief. But, do you think that, if you cannot believe it, it means it did not happen?

God does not exist.

The return will will not happen.

If you are christian, you cannot have Bahai views. There is no Bahaullah in christianity.

Just because you make a claim and it's written down does not make it true than my writing down a beautiful poem and 2,000 years later people think the poem is actually about me when it's from my imagination. (This is to make a point. Nothing more)

I read the bible. There is no hint of Bahaullah in scriptures. Bahai can believe whatever they want but again, these are beliefs.

Why can't you accept that you have beliefs?

It's alright. It won't harm anyone.

 

[Vinayaka]

I said, for a fact, Bahaullah matches the signs that were prophesied in other World Religions Scriptures.

And this is why I'm beginning to believe the Baha'i; are another version of fundamentalism.

Fundamentalism - Wikipedia