How are these Great Beings explained?

[loverofhumanity]

Do you get the point of what I'm saying?

There is something more that you can do. You can say "No. He died at 74. Would you like me to show you? (pretending the answer is no) Okay.

I just want to say I disagree and we can walk away in peace.

The peace you're describing is a paradox. Peace shouldn't be like that or you'd be trying to find "world" peace through the eyes of future prophets for time millenia.

Yes, I understand. Where there is evidence I always try to show it.

 

[Dawnofhope]

That is my point. How can love exist for people who do not believe god exists?

Assuming that other people can hold things true not just bahai.

We agree that people who do not believe in God can love and are loved. We can agree that God loves those that do not believe Him as well as those who do.

That would mean if I were a practicing Catholic my religion is no longer sufficiant to my spiritual growth?

We can't determine that for certain. Maybe, maybe not. Would it have helped the Jews to have followed Christ rather than reject or ignore Him?

Religion is about person and community. If you think its no longer sufficient, youre taking peoples spirituality away.

What I meant is that religion is also about each person's relationship with God, and that should be part of every aspect of our life, not just about when we attend church.

That is your belief. I mean, I can play devils advocate and think of actual truth and fact as a muslim, hindu, buddhist, or baptist. Think outdide the box.

Yes, it could be the whole truth, art, and expression discussion again.

Wait. You said people can have love without god.

That's correct. However if the God of the Christians, and Baha'is is the same God and truly exists, it is important to recognise Him as such at some point.

Catholic means a person whp is communion with the body and sacraments. I am no longer in the physical body because I dont attend mass nor do I take the sacraments. So Im catholic by sacrament not by faith.

It would be hard to be a Catholic by Faith, without faith in God.

 

[loverofhumanity]

Why would God need a 'manifestation' when he can do it directly? Does God need help? A long time back, at about post 300. I gave you my particular Hindu view, which is that all souls are on a continuum of evolution/maturity. So from that POV, after several lifetimes, you too can be a Baha'ullah. (Not that I personally think Baha'u'llah was all that great. I thought the answer he gave to the people who asked him how old he was was silly. A wiser man would have just given his age, so the adherents wouldn't have to argue/discuss/debate for any longer. Seems to me he was causing more problems with that answer, rather than solving any, lol.)

Remember, Hindus also have holy men, and lots of them for all the various schools. The difference is we don't credit them with as much power as prophet based religions do, and we take more of the work upon ourselves to figure things out, believing the only true knowledge is what we realise on our own. Almost all of our holy men and women are celibate monks or nuns. (There are some exceptions, in some schools, but its not as common.) The rest is someone else's so all we can do is regurgitate it, as Baha'i's seem to be very fond of doing, although Adrian, and now you, have cut back on the quoting a lot, which I'm personally grateful for.

Ok then. My point isn't that God needs help but that we are unable to see, hear or speak with God directly. How do we know that what we imagine to be God is not just our imagination?

Can our minds actually know God directly in the sense do our minds and souls have the capacity?

We understand that for God to enter the human psyche it would be like the sun descending to the earth which the earth cannot sustain so it receives its light and warmth via the rays of the sun. We say the Manifestations are the rays of God that can reach and communicate God's Will and knowledge to us on our level.

For instance the Word of God is the Word of God not Mira Hussain Ali the man. Because they are Words from God they have an invisible spiritual power that when uttered can change the world through invisible forces we cannot see.

You said God acts directly so why wouldn't the Word of God, God's Word, be a form of that?

 

[Dawnofhope]

Thank you!

@Vinayaka I don't think it's a Bahai thing if I'm getting things correctly. I just think @adrian @loverofhumanity @arthra and Investigator have different spins on Bahai teachings.

Thank you for sharing your opinion. I would say that god doesn't need prophets and books to talk to humans. Humans probably need those things but then that's generalization. I'd think it would be amazing to be part of a religion with whom has direct relationships with god.

Does that sound logical if at all possible?

Sometimes its hard to appreciate our parents and our teachers and acknowledge the vital role they have all played in our lives.

Could humanity have got by without Krishna, Moses, Buddha, Jesus, and Muhammad? They have arguably been amongst the most influential people in human history.

 

[Vinayaka]

Now, we may ask, why He does not inspire all of us directly?

In that case, I ask you, which one is better; that God Manifests among us and speak to us, as Bahaullah is saying, or He deprive all those, whose hearts are veiled from receiving inspirations? You as a hindu, also believe, if peoples heart is veiled, they cannot be inspired. Then what is the remedy for them? Bahaullah says, He has the remedy that would eventually help people to clean their hearts and be also inspired.

I am no longer reading the quotes, just so you know. It's just too tedious, and repetitive (for me).

You are telling me what I believe? I do believe all souls can be inspired. In fact I believe all souls attain moksha. I don't know where you're getting your information about Hinduism from, but it most certainly isn't from my sampradaya's teachings. (Is it from Baha'i' sources?) At the latest stages of a soul's evolution, we need a Guru, a living Guru. But that's different. We still have to do all the work. The Guru just keeps us on the track.

 

[Vinayaka]

The ironic thing about it is the prophets had the same intent that you have and talked with god directly, found their answers from god, and followed had their teacher(s) and line of lineage. No one said worship them as a prophet or messenger. Muhammad would have a field day if you think of him equal to his creator. Maybe followers are putting too much time in the people and not the message.

I agree, and it's an astute observation. Worse yet is the idea that the prophet can do if for you, or absolves you of sins. 'Hey, we're good to cheat. steal, harm, cause we have ______." Pretty false logic, in my view. Course I believe in karma, which puts all responsibility for action on the individual.

 

[Vinayaka]

Thank you for sharing your opinion. I would say that god doesn't need prophets and books to talk to humans. Humans probably need those things but then that's generalization. I'd think it would be amazing to be part of a religion with whom has direct relationships with god.

Does that sound logical if at all possible?

There is no intermediary in Hinduism. The priest's duty is to beseech the presence of God. Then each individual communes directly with God. Temple worship, and home puja (ritual beseeching) is key. I do it every day, and in various ways, all through the day. In the video from Melbourne I posted in the Hindu DIR, the man near the end getting the car puja explains in his way how they have the understanding that it is God's car, and they have temporary custody of it, for joint use. (God and devotee) Direct communion woven into the fabric.

 

[Vinayaka]

I would credit the whole process to God. Humanity is heading towards greater degrees of interdependence on each other as we become one people sharing one planet. All the great people of this age draw inspiration from the Unseen spiritual realm. That realm is the world of God. Although Baha'is consider Baha'u'llah the Manifestation of God for this emerging new age, it is God that inspires all including Ghandi. I hope that makes more sense.

Thanks for replying. I agree with most of it. The entire universe is God's emanation, so yes He gets credit, because it is Him. Obviously, since I'm not a Baha'i' nor believe in prophets, I can't agree with that part. As to God inspiring all, I think it's rude to say that to an atheist. He'd most certainly disagree.

But Gandhi, and all other theistic peacemakers are inspired by God.

For many Hindus, the spiritual realm is not unseen, but seen. That's where deep advanced mysticism enters the picture.

 

[Vinayaka]

Can our minds actually know God directly in the sense do our minds and souls have the capacity?

Yes yes yes! We absolutely can.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

You will find it very rare if at all that Baha'is will get into heated arguments about their Faith. The Iranian Baha'is are mistreated but do not retaliate. They accept their persecution and it is the UN and other government agencies that peacefully try and secure their release and stop the oppression.

We would never say a person is an infidel or not saved not just because it's rude but also because we are told not to judge others as we don't know what our own end will be.

We are to focus on others good points and our own faults.

It's so hard to explain because it's a balance but there is very good reasoning behind all the Baha'i teachings about fault finding and not being argumentivd but at the same time we can have a clash of opinions.

To be silent concerning the faults of others, to pray for them, and to help them, through kindness, to correct their faults.

To look always at the good and not at the bad. If a man has ten good qualities and one bad one, to look at the ten and forget the one; and if a man has ten bad qualities and one good one, to look at the one and forget the ten.

Never to allow ourselves to speak one unkind word about another, even though that other be our enemy. (Abdul-Baha)


I don't know if this helps but I'm trying if that counts for anything.

You just looked over my point.

I disagree with "you are wrong" as confrontational and discourteous.

You do. How does the two go together?

No argument. No fussing. Just polite disagreement just as saying you are wrong about my being a male if you were to say I were.

Nothing wrong with that.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Yes, I understand. Where there is evidence I always try to show it.

When you show evidence without anyone asking, that is a form of refuting. It's a passive aggressive way of saying "you are wrong."

You can say you are wrong without needing to list evidence. Not everyone needs to read Bahaullah's teachings to understand what you're saying as long as you are clear and not vague.

That causes frustrations and could cause wars if you're not distinct in your disagreements.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

We agree that people who do not believe in God can love and are loved. We can agree that God loves those that do not believe Him as well as those who do.

That's correct. However if the God of the Christians, and Baha'is is the same God and truly exists, it is important to recognise Him as such at some point.

No it wouldn't. If god existed, people can still find love without him regardless. It should be a choice not an ultimatum.

I honestly think it's hard for you to say a person can only find love of god if they believe in god.

If there is such love outside the love of god, what is it? If you believe god is all there is and defines love for everyone etc?

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Sometimes its hard to appreciate our parents and our teachers and acknowledge the vital role they have all played in our lives.

Could humanity have got by without Krishna, Moses, Buddha, Jesus, and Muhammad? They have arguably been amongst the most influential people in human history.

Yes, we could. Many people aren't religious and don't believe in a religion and get along and grow up just fine.

 

[Vinayaka]

Could humanity have got by without Krishna, Moses, Buddha, Jesus, and Muhammad? They have arguably been amongst the most influential people in human history.

Obviously yes. No individual is that important. Everyone is dispensable.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

I agree, and it's an astute observation. Worse yet is the idea that the prophet can do if for you, or absolves you of sins. 'Hey, we're good to cheat. steal, harm, cause we have ______." Pretty false logic, in my view. Course I believe in karma, which puts all responsibility for action on the individual.

I understand what you mean but prophets (priests?) don't absolve sins in the Church; God does. Just the thing is people depend on Jesus, Bahaullah, Muhammad, etc to know about god when they can know him directly.

Funny, like you correct people for misrepresenting Hinduism, I correct people misinformed with Catholicism. Guess I see where you come from when you see someone mess up your faith (or former).

 

[Vinayaka]

It's a passive aggressive way of saying "you are wrong."

Thank you for this insight regarding 'technique'. It's been useful, and sometimes we miss it.

 

[Vinayaka]

I understand what you mean but prophets (priests?) don't absolve sins in the Church; God does. Just the thing is people depend on Jesus, Bahaullah, Muhammad, etc to know about god when they can know him directly.

Funny, like you correct people for misrepresenting Hinduism, I correct people misinformed with Catholicism. Guess I see where you come from when you see someone mess up your faith (or former).

I only got that from some forms of Christianity where they say 'Jesus saved me." I have a very poor understanding I'm sure. Not my forte.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

My question is why don't you believe you have the attributes of god?
.

How would I know what God's attributes are, so that I may know if I have them or not?

 

[Unveiled Artist]

How would I know what God's attributes are, so that I may know if I have them or not?

If you believe moses and bahaullah. Read a out gods attributes through them since they are human and find those attributes and communication with god directly by their Example.

One of my therapist told me years ago. The point of going to therapy is NOT to go to therapy. People depend on the prophet and forget the prophet is telling you what you can do for ourselves.

The point of the prophet is not to go to the prophet.Jesus and Muhammad referred to the creator. Jesus meditated and prayed directly to his father.

 

[loverofhumanity]

When you show evidence without anyone asking, that is a form of refuting. It's a passive aggressive way of saying "you are wrong."

You can say you are wrong without needing to list evidence. Not everyone needs to read Bahaullah's teachings to understand what you're saying as long as you are clear and not vague.

That causes frustrations and could cause wars if you're not distinct in your disagreements.

That's fine. But to me that's like saying 'I can just look at food to get nourishment, I don't need to eat it'. I don't think you can get spiritual nourishment adequately without reading the Word of God an putting into practice His Teachings for each age.

Example. Is the state of the world and I use that again and again because despite billions of religionists claiming they talk to God and all that we don't have world peace because they are impotent to establish it with the spiritual power of a Manifestation.

The proof of the pudding is in the eating. The people who say they've all got God why then can't that solve their disputes?