How are these Great Beings explained?

[InvestigateTruth]

I didn't say it is all negative. I asked, what about the negative side? But also, what about the influence of Greek and Roman culture? I didn't study it, but how about you or one of the other Baha'is?

I'd question whether the Greeks and Romans had more and a better civilizing influence on the West than Christianity.

Bahai Scriptures states that All People have always been inspired through the teachings of the Prophets.

I quote Abdulbaha:

"It is recorded in eastern histories that Socrates journeyed to Palestine and Syria and there, from men learned in the things of God, acquired certain spiritual truths; that when he returned to Greece, he promulgated two beliefs: one, the unity of God, and the other, the immortality of the soul after its separation from the body; that these concepts, so foreign to their thought, raised a great commotion among the Greeks, until in the end they gave him poison and killed him.
And this is authentic; for the Greeks believed in many gods, and Socrates established the fact that God is one, which obviously was in conflict with Greek beliefs.
The Founder of monotheism was Abraham; it is to Him that this concept can be traced, and the belief was current among the Children of Israel, even in the days of Socrates.
The above, however, cannot be found in the Jewish histories; there are many facts which are not included in Jewish history. Not all the events of the life of Christ are set forth in the history of Josephus, a Jew, although it was he who wrote the history of the times of Christ. One may not, therefore, refuse to believe in events of Christ’s day on the grounds that they are not to be found in the history of Josephus.
Eastern histories also state that Hippocrates sojourned for a long time in the town of Tyre, and this is a city in Syria."

But, since the United States was formed before the Baha'i Era, you've got to give something other then the Baha'i Faith credit. And, with things like the Bill of Rights, wasn't there already the seeds for equality for all people established?

Sure. It is in the teacings of Islam that emphasized on unity of a Nation. This idea, of making a united country originally comes from Religions as well.

"The United States embarked on a vigorous expansion across North America throughout the 19th century,[29]displacing Native American tribes, acquiring new territories, and gradually admitting new states until it spanned the continent by 1848.[29] During the second half of the 19th century, the American Civil War led to the end of legal slavery in the country.[30][31] By the end of that century, the United States extended into the Pacific Ocean,[32] and its economy, driven in large part by the Industrial Revolution, began to soar.[33]"

United States - Wikipedia

 

[Unveiled Artist]

I don't own a cell phone. I'm the volunteer landscaper at our local temple. So this morning I moved about 10 wheelbarrrows of dirt around, removing the bad, and puttin' in the good, then I seeded some grass, watered it all, and rode the riding lawnmower for awhile. A guy with 14 cubic yards of topsoil in a truck didn't show cause it was raining, but when he dumps it, I will move the entire thing all over the lawn, called topping up, all by shovel and wheelbarrow. (Keeps me in shape) Then there are rose beds to dig around, more lawn cutting, trimming, planting in the pots, repainting the priest's house trim, parts of the entire fence. I also 'helped' some plums with their friendly neighbourhood pollinator by brushing one bunch of flowers onto the other ones. So yeah, in Hinduism it's called seva (service), and I'm incredibly lucky to be in a position to do lots of it. Sure beats sitting on here debating, lol.

Wow. That is service. I wanted to be a nun to serve since I couldn't be a priest but I slipped up on one of the requirements. Now, since I'm by my lonesome, I just listen to the spirits. My grandmother's been pulling me to get the family together for ages. Found out that my aunt just lives directly across the street from the metro/train station and the cemetery is right around the corner. I think if I figure how I want to donate my writings and arts to children with Epilepsy. I have epilepsy and put myself on the volunteer list to talk to people about the new treatment I receive to control seizures. I asked to be a lecturer for my testimonies.

I did go to a Spiritualist Church yesterday and that was nice. Very different from the christian environment. They (and I should say We) feel our family in spirit helps us out in service together in one communal Spirit. A lot of people become mediums to help others and their loved ones. I love working with people. I wanted to go back volunteering teaching since I love giving knowledge.

Hard labor, though. You can have that. lol

 

[loverofhumanity]

Good to know you see that we are actually from very different paradigms. That's some movement, although I can never really tell, because you might go ahead and contradict that statement right away. I never know whether your politeness is a tactic to get people to continue, or whether it's actually sincere. I'm not a mind reader.

Getting back to the original question though, 'How are these Great Beings Explained?" . One of the problems with any 'debate' on these forums is that the question holds assumptions, that people like me (and many others) will question. So we can't really get to the debate at all. It's like saying, 'Does the Earth have 2 moons or 3 moons, let's debate it.'

So if we look at the original question, I can honestly say I don't believe in the manifestations you talk about at all, let alone explain them. So the very question itself doesn't make sense to me. I believe Baha'u'llah existed as a person, and I believe Muhammad existed as a person. However, I don't believe either one was a 'great being' because of the celibacy condition factor in Hinduism. The rest of the 'manifestations', I don't even know if they existed. Perhaps they were just stories. So for me, the entire question doesn't make any sense. How can you explain the existence of something you don't believe existed?

That's a very fair and honest answer. It's just a discussion but I'm happy either way for people to continue or not. When Baha'u'llah first announced His Mission there were many enemies who used to go to the government saying He was building an army to overthrow them and create all sorts of problems for the Baha'is. He ended up being exiled for 40 years on trumped up charges. There was no secret motive or tactic to do anything just announce that God had sent Him with a message to humanity.

At first I thought you didn't believe in God but now I know that you do I'm wondering why you don't think it possible that God would work through or appoint an individual to represent Him. He is capable of doing this as He is God I would think.

I just thought that if God can do whatever He wants then appointing Manifestations is not behind His power to do should He so wish.

 

[loverofhumanity]

Here is the thing. I love religions and I love culture. That's my study and career path and passion. So...

If I said Bahaullah died at 500 years old and you said he died at 74, and I said you were wrong and in the context of this discussion it is not an insult, discourteous, nor confrontational.

If you agreed with me to "not cause a war" you are compromising your belief not bringing unity.

If you disagree, then you are not compromising your beliefs. Instead, you can say No He died at 74. I would like to show you Bahaullah writings do you want to see them?"

and the discussion continues with Yes, I am interested. No, it's okay.

A debate is when you bring on the "evidence" (or quotes) before the person tells you they are interested in learning why you disagree with them even though you won't say.

It's like the quotes are your "I disagree" statements but you can't say them yourselves. It's a passive aggressive way of discussing and debating (not arguing)

and it gets frustrating passive aggressive debating. Really frustrating.

Sorry for the frustration. But I don't find you frustrating at all and enjoy trying to answer your very intelligent questions. I try my best but often it's not good enough.

Things like Baha'u'llah's age there is evidence of it so I could use that to prove that he's not 500 years old but if you still refused to agree and insisted you were right then there would be nothing more I could do.

 

[loverofhumanity]

How do you clash with differing opinions if you can't disagree with each other?

Clash of opinions is encouraged but not personalities. There is a vast difference.

We are encouraged to have a clash of opinions but 'Patience and restraint, however, should at all times characterize the discussions and deliberations'....

So it's a matter of each individual trying to find that right balance. It may be just me being overly cautious not to offend. But I am definitely permitted to refute an argument it's just I may overly cautious.

Selected Readings on Consultation

 

[Vinayaka]

At first I thought you didn't believe in God but now I know that you do I'm wondering why you don't think it possible that God would work through or appoint an individual to represent Him. He is capable of doing this as He is God I would think.

I just thought that if God can do whatever He wants then appointing Manifestations is not behind His power to do should He so wish.

Why would God need a 'manifestation' when he can do it directly? Does God need help? A long time back, at about post 300. I gave you my particular Hindu view, which is that all souls are on a continuum of evolution/maturity. So from that POV, after several lifetimes, you too can be a Baha'ullah. (Not that I personally think Baha'u'llah was all that great. I thought the answer he gave to the people who asked him how old he was was silly. A wiser man would have just given his age, so the adherents wouldn't have to argue/discuss/debate for any longer. Seems to me he was causing more problems with that answer, rather than solving any, lol.)

Remember, Hindus also have holy men, and lots of them for all the various schools. The difference is we don't credit them with as much power as prophet based religions do, and we take more of the work upon ourselves to figure things out, believing the only true knowledge is what we realise on our own. Almost all of our holy men and women are celibate monks or nuns. (There are some exceptions, in some schools, but its not as common.) The rest is someone else's so all we can do is regurgitate it, as Baha'i's seem to be very fond of doing, although Adrian, and now you, have cut back on the quoting a lot, which I'm personally grateful for.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

Why would God need a 'manifestation' when he can do it directly? Does God need help?
.

Bahaullah says, He is invisible, and cannot incarnate Himself, thus He appears through His Manifestations:

"Know thou of a certainty that the Unseen can in no wise incarnate His Essence and reveal it unto men. He is, and hath ever been, immensely exalted beyond all that can either be recounted or perceived. From His retreat of glory His voice is ever proclaiming: “Verily, I am God; there is none other God besides Me, the All-Knowing, the All-Wise. I have manifested Myself unto men, and have sent down Him Who is the Day Spring of the signs of My Revelation. Through Him I have caused all creation to testify that there is none other God except Him, the Incomparable, the All-Informed, the All-Wise.” He Who is everlastingly hidden from the eyes of men can never be known except through His Manifestation, and His Manifestation can adduce no greater proof of the truth of His Mission than the proof of His own Person."

Bahá'í Reference Library - Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, Page 49


Now, we may ask, why He does not inspire all of us directly?

In that case, I ask you, which one is better; that God Manifests among us and speak to us, as Bahaullah is saying, or He deprive all those, whose hearts are veiled from receiving inspirations? You as a hindu, also believe, if peoples heart is veiled, they cannot be inspired. Then what is the remedy for them? Bahaullah says, He has the remedy that would eventually help people to clean their hearts and be also inspired.


"To every discerning and illuminated heart it is evident that God, the unknowable Essence, the Divine Being, is immensely exalted beyond every human attribute, such as corporeal existence, ascent and descent, egress and regress. Far be it from His glory that human tongue should adequately recount His praise, or that human heart comprehend His fathomless mystery. He is, and hath ever been, veiled in the ancient eternity of His Essence, and will remain in His Reality everlastingly hidden from the sight of men. “No vision taketh in Him, but He taketh in all vision; He is the Subtile, the All-Perceiving.”…
The door of the knowledge of the Ancient of Days being thus closed in the face of all beings, the Source of infinite grace, according to His saying, “His grace hath transcended all things; My grace hath encompassed them all,” hath caused those luminous Gems of Holiness to appear out of the realm of the spirit, in the noble form of the human temple, and be made manifest unto all men, that they may impart unto the world the mysteries of the unchangeable Being, and tell of the subtleties of His imperishable Essence."

Bahá'í Reference Library - Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, Pages 46-49

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Sorry for the frustration. But I don't find you frustrating at all and enjoy trying to answer your very intelligent questions. I try my best but often it's not good enough.

Things like Baha'u'llah's age there is evidence of it so I could use that to prove that he's not 500 years old but if you still refused to agree and insisted you were right then there would be nothing more I could do.

Do you get the point of what I'm saying?

There is something more that you can do. You can say "No. He died at 74. Would you like me to show you? (pretending the answer is no) Okay.

I just want to say I disagree and we can walk away in peace.

The peace you're describing is a paradox. Peace shouldn't be like that or you'd be trying to find "world" peace through the eyes of future prophets for time millenia.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Bahaullah says, He is invisible, and cannot incarnate Himself, thus He appears through His Manifestations:

"Know thou of a certainty that the Unseen can in no wise incarnate His Essence and reveal it unto men. He is, and hath ever been, immensely exalted beyond all that can either be recounted or perceived. From His retreat of glory His voice is ever proclaiming: “Verily, I am God; there is none other God besides Me, the All-Knowing, the All-Wise. I have manifested Myself unto men, and have sent down Him Who is the Day Spring of the signs of My Revelation. Through Him I have caused all creation to testify that there is none other God except Him, the Incomparable, the All-Informed, the All-Wise.” He Who is everlastingly hidden from the eyes of men can never be known except through His Manifestation, and His Manifestation can adduce no greater proof of the truth of His Mission than the proof of His own Person."

Bahá'í Reference Library - Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, Page 49


Now, we may ask, why He does not inspire all of us directly?

In that case, I ask you, which one is better; that God Manifests among us and speak to us, as Bahaullah is saying, or He deprive all those, whose hearts are veiled from receiving inspirations? You as a hindu, also believe, if peoples heart is veiled, they cannot be inspired. Then what is the remedy for them? Bahaullah says, He has the remedy that would eventually help people to clean their hearts and be also inspired.


"To every discerning and illuminated heart it is evident that God, the unknowable Essence, the Divine Being, is immensely exalted beyond every human attribute, such as corporeal existence, ascent and descent, egress and regress. Far be it from His glory that human tongue should adequately recount His praise, or that human heart comprehend His fathomless mystery. He is, and hath ever been, veiled in the ancient eternity of His Essence, and will remain in His Reality everlastingly hidden from the sight of men. “No vision taketh in Him, but He taketh in all vision; He is the Subtile, the All-Perceiving.”…
The door of the knowledge of the Ancient of Days being thus closed in the face of all beings, the Source of infinite grace, according to His saying, “His grace hath transcended all things; My grace hath encompassed them all,” hath caused those luminous Gems of Holiness to appear out of the realm of the spirit, in the noble form of the human temple, and be made manifest unto all men, that they may impart unto the world the mysteries of the unchangeable Being, and tell of the subtleties of His imperishable Essence."

Bahá'í Reference Library - Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, Pages 46-49

You weren't here for the first two thousand posts. In your own words, why can't god talk to you directly?

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Why would God need a 'manifestation' when he can do it directly? Does God need help? A long time back, at about post 300. I gave you my particular Hindu view, which is that all souls are on a continuum of evolution/maturity. So from that POV, after several lifetimes, you too can be a Baha'ullah. (Not that I personally think Baha'u'llah was all that great. I thought the answer he gave to the people who asked him how old he was was silly. A wiser man would have just given his age, so the adherents wouldn't have to argue/discuss/debate for any longer. Seems to me he was causing more problems with that answer, rather than solving any, lol.)

Remember, Hindus also have holy men, and lots of them for all the various schools. The difference is we don't credit them with as much power as prophet based religions do, and we take more of the work upon ourselves to figure things out, believing the only true knowledge is what we realise on our own. Almost all of our holy men and women are celibate monks or nuns. (There are some exceptions, in some schools, but its not as common.) The rest is someone else's so all we can do is regurgitate it, as Baha'i's seem to be very fond of doing, although Adrian, and now you, have cut back on the quoting a lot, which I'm personally grateful for.

The ironic thing about it is the prophets had the same intent that you have and talked with god directly, found their answers from god, and followed had their teacher(s) and line of lineage. No one said worship them as a prophet or messenger. Muhammad would have a field day if you think of him equal to his creator. Maybe followers are putting too much time in the people and not the message.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

You weren't here for the first two thousand posts. In your own words, why can't god talk to you directly?

The Truth as I see it, God does not speak to anybody directly. Neither anybody can see God. Not only me. Just a fact. I can only know about Him, through His Manifestations who have appeared with evidence and proof.
Anybody who claims God speaks to him directly, in my opinion, is a false claim. The Manifestations of God though, have proved Themselves. I believe anybody who investigate Them unbiased would certainly recognize Their Truth.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

The Truth as I see it, God does not speak to anybody directly. Neither anybody can see God. Not only me. Just a fact. I can only know about Him, through His Manifestations who has appeared with evidence and proof.
Anybody who claims God speaks to Him directly, in my opinion, is either mentally ill or is a Liar. The Manifestations of God though, have proved Themselves. I believe anybody who investigate Them unbiased would certainly recognize Their Truth.

Thank you!

@Vinayaka I don't think it's a Bahai thing if I'm getting things correctly. I just think @adrian @loverofhumanity @arthra and Investigator have different spins on Bahai teachings.

Thank you for sharing your opinion. I would say that god doesn't need prophets and books to talk to humans. Humans probably need those things but then that's generalization. I'd think it would be amazing to be part of a religion with whom has direct relationships with god.

Does that sound logical if at all possible?

 

[InvestigateTruth]

Thank you!

@Vinayaka I don't think it's a Bahai thing if I'm getting things correctly. I just think @adrian @loverofhumanity @arthra and Investigator have different spins on Bahai teachings.



Thank you for sharing your opinion. I would say that god doesn't need prophets and books to talk to humans. Humans probably need those things but then that's generalization. I'd think it would be amazing to be part of a religion with whom has direct relationships with god.

Does that sound logical if at all possible?

The way I see it, is, since, for me as a fact, there has never been a time for me to hear, voice of God, then I cannot know if God exists at all.
If I think there is a God, or No God, the truth is, it is only my own imaginations. It is a fancy.
The only times, in the History, I can see it is said God has spoken to humanity, are when Messengers and Prophets had appeared. According to my investigation, and the evidence I see, I can believe Them. That is all I can tell you.
But, I believe there is a general belief among people who think, it is easy or possible to claim to a new Revelation, such as Islam, Christianity or other World Religions. To my perception, those Religions cannot be made by ordinary men. I see evidence in them that have a supernatural Source.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Clash of opinions is encouraged but not personalities. There is a vast difference.

We are encouraged to have a clash of opinions but 'Patience and restraint, however, should at all times characterize the discussions and deliberations'....

So it's a matter of each individual trying to find that right balance. It may be just me being overly cautious not to offend. But I am definitely permitted to refute an argument it's just I may overly cautious.

Selected Readings on Consultation

I was wondering about the refute, because the way you made it sound was like if someone held a gun to your head, said this is my belief you should die, and if you didn't value your safety, you'd say "I just want to have peace. I agree with you that you want to murder me and I have my opinions too. We have different morals and personalities but I'm not allowed to disagree with you. So, I won't say that you're wrong (though that is a form of refuting) just dodge and weave."

Loverofhumanity.

You are saying you can't say specific phrases because they are confrontational. I don't see "you are wrong" as confrontational. You do. Outside of personal preference, how can you refute my opinion when I don't see it wrong (thereby agreeing with Bahaullah's teachings)?

Is there a logic behind "you are wrong?" that only equals to discourtesy and confrontation?​

 

[Unveiled Artist]

The way I see it, is, since, for me as a fact, there has never been a time for me to hear, voice of God, then I cannot know if God exists at all.
If I think there is a God, or No God, the truth is, it is only my own imaginations. It is a fancy.
The only times, in the History, I can see it is said God has spoken to humanity, are when Messengers and Prophets had appeared. According to my investigation, and the evidence I see, I can believe Them. That is all I can tell you.
But, I believe there is a general belief among people who think, it is easy or possible to claim to a new Revelation, such as Islam, Christianity or other World Religions. To my perception, those Religions cannot be made by ordinary men. I see evidence in them that have a supernatural Source.

Why would you see yourself different from the prophets? They are human just as you. What in the past 2,000 years of christianity or the last 154 year or so of Bahaism (brief look up) that makes god's voice be directly heard then but not heard by people now?

The prophets didn't need an intermediary to know god. They are human just as you and on the earth just as you. So, what about their eyes, ears, and senses make them more receptive to hearing god that you, as a human, can not hear the same voice?

 

[InvestigateTruth]

Why would you see yourself different from the prophets? They are human just as you. What in the past 2,000 years of christianity or the last 154 year or so of Bahaism (brief look up) that makes god's voice be directly heard then but not heard by people now?

The prophets didn't need an intermediary to know god. They are human just as you and on the earth just as you. So, what about their eyes, ears, and senses make them more receptive to hearing god that you, as a human, can not hear the same voice?

Look, things that exist, 'more or less', and for the purpose of my discussion, may be divided in these categories or groups of beings:

1. Minerals
2. Plants
3. Animals
4. Human
5. Manifestations of God

Look at these groups. When you from top to bottom, you see, each group is more perfect.
For instance, Animals have all the senses, hearing, seeing, smelling...., but the plants generally do not have all the senses. Human has more than just the senses, he has rational mind, which animals do not.
Now, i can ask you the same. Why do you have problem to accept that, there are Beings who are greater than ordinary humans!? Manifestations are only outwardly human like us, but They have all attributes of God. For example They are all knowing. As previously demonstrated before in this thread, Bahaullah did not go to school and did not have books or teachers, but He knew All things. If you say this is not the case, try to repudiate His claim. Show me the evidence that disproves His claim as One who knows all things without human learning.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Look at these groups. When you from top to bottom, you see, each group is more perfect.
For instance, Animals have all the senses, hearing, seeing, smelling...., but the plants generally do not have all the senses. Human has more than just the senses, he has rational mind, which animals do not.

I dont see humans as more perfect than minerals and on up. If I did the earth would be first because we come from the water and the earth takes care of us. But since we are a part of the Earth I don't see it as over me.

Doing that is a hierarchy point of view. It promotes a communism type of mindset as well as slavery to service. See it equal and be at peace.

Now, i can ask you the same. Why do you have problem to accept that, there are Beings who are greater than ordinary humans!

I do not believe it exists. It's hard to accept something that does not exist. If they did, they would not be greater than me. How could they? Just because they are beings, does not mean they need to be greater. I believe in Spirits (souls of the earth and the deceased). They are no greater than me.

What about them being beings deserves their worship compared to a human?

Manifestations are only outwardly human like us, but They have all attributes of God. For example They are all knowing. As previously demonstrated before in this thread, Bahaullah did not go to school and did not have books or teachers, but He knew All things. If you say this is not the case, try to repudiate His claim. Show me the evidence that disproves His claim as One who knows all things without human learning.

My question is why don't you believe you have the attributes of god? I don't see the prophets as greater. Even if I believed in a being without once having a body, that doesn't make sense.

I don't see how being a being equates to being greater than a human.

 

[Dawnofhope]

Total change of topic, but okay?
Nobody would doubt social change. It is occurring all the time, part of a natural progression of the universe. But to credit it all to one person seems a bit much, no?

I would credit the whole process to God. Humanity is heading towards greater degrees of interdependence on each other as we become one people sharing one planet. All the great people of this age draw inspiration from the Unseen spiritual realm. That realm is the world of God. Although Baha'is consider Baha'u'llah the Manifestation of God for this emerging new age, it is God that inspires all including Ghandi. I hope that makes more sense.

 

[loverofhumanity]

I was wondering about the refute, because the way you made it sound was like if someone held a gun to your head, said this is my belief you should die, and if you didn't value your safety, you'd say "I just want to have peace. I agree with you that you want to murder me and I have my opinions too. We have different morals and personalities but I'm not allowed to disagree with you. So, I won't say that you're wrong (though that is a form of refuting) just dodge and weave."

Loverofhumanity.

You are saying you can't say specific phrases because they are confrontational. I don't see "you are wrong" as confrontational. You do. Outside of personal preference, how can you refute my opinion when I don't see it wrong (thereby agreeing with Bahaullah's teachings)?

Is there a logic behind "you are wrong?" that only equals to discourtesy and confrontation?​

You will find it very rare if at all that Baha'is will get into heated arguments about their Faith. The Iranian Baha'is are mistreated but do not retaliate. They accept their persecution and it is the UN and other government agencies that peacefully try and secure their release and stop the oppression.

We would never say a person is an infidel or not saved not just because it's rude but also because we are told not to judge others as we don't know what our own end will be.

We are to focus on others good points and our own faults.

It's so hard to explain because it's a balance but there is very good reasoning behind all the Baha'i teachings about fault finding and not being argumentivd but at the same time we can have a clash of opinions.

To be silent concerning the faults of others, to pray for them, and to help them, through kindness, to correct their faults.

To look always at the good and not at the bad. If a man has ten good qualities and one bad one, to look at the ten and forget the one; and if a man has ten bad qualities and one good one, to look at the one and forget the ten.

Never to allow ourselves to speak one unkind word about another, even though that other be our enemy. (Abdul-Baha)


I don't know if this helps but I'm trying if that counts for anything.

 

[loverofhumanity]

Thank you!

@Vinayaka I don't think it's a Bahai thing if I'm getting things correctly. I just think @adrian @loverofhumanity @arthra and Investigator have different spins on Bahai teachings.

Thank you for sharing your opinion. I would say that god doesn't need prophets and books to talk to humans. Humans probably need those things but then that's generalization. I'd think it would be amazing to be part of a religion with whom has direct relationships with god.

Does that sound logical if at all possible?

I'm the same. I've never seen God or heard His Voice directly or anything like that. It's only through the Manifestations that I felt there was a God but directly I have never heard God speak to me.