How are these Great Beings explained?

[arthra]

I don't know why we should go to great lengths to avoid offending religious sensibilities - none of the Educators mentioned in this thread were afraid of opposing religious error), I am suggesting, can strike chords in wicked hearts as well as good ones - only the rational and critical reasoning of the (our own) intellect can sort out which is which - if we have a mind to, and the heart for it!

The heart indeed is a good place to start in my view... Intellect by itself may be attractive and a play of words beginning with words and ending with words...... but the heart is where in my view we can feel emotion of contact with others.

Consider this definition of "Bhakti":

Bhakti (Sanskrit: भक्ति) literally means "attachment, participation, fondness for, homage, faith or love, devotion, worship, piety".[1] Bhakti, in Hinduism, refers to devotion and the love of a personal god or a representational god by a devotee.[2][3] In ancient texts such as the Shvetashvatara Upanishad, the term simply means participation, devotion and love for any endeavor, while in the Bhagavad Gita, it connotes one of the possible paths of spirituality and moksha as in bhakti marga.[4]

Bhakti Yoga is described by Swami Vivekananda as "the path of systematized devotion for the attainment of union with the Absolute".

Bhakti - Wikipedia

Also in the great epic of the Mahabharata you will find "Ahimsa"...

The Mahabharata, one of the epics of Hinduism, has multiple mentions of the phrase Ahimsa Paramo Dharma (अहिंसा परमॊ धर्मः), which literally means: non-violence is the highest moral virtue.

Ahimsa - Wikipedia

 

[Cobol]

These are

How do we explain these Great Beings: Buddha, Moses, Krishna, Christ, Zoroaster, Muhammad, the Bab & Bahaullah? They are somewhat unique and unparalleled in human history and were clearly not ordinary people.

Those are famous people in history, famous artists, musicians and scientists but none can compare to the influence of the Educator, Teacher, Messiah or Prophet.

But Who were they? And why were they and still are so influential throughout history? Why did they inspire civilizations? Why have their scriptures become patterns of life followed daily by billions of people for thousands of years?

What gift did they possess to be able to be persecuted, oppressed, tortured, exiled and crucified by the most despotic and powerful leaders of their age with but a handful of followers and yet eventually triumph over adversity and establish Their Cause all over the world?

Statues, Churches, Temples, Pagodas, Mosques and Synagogues are built all over the world to pay tribute to these Great Souls.

Are they from another world? Did they pre exist? Without a special power how could they have accomplished what they did and who is their equal in influence?
And aren't we in dire need of another Great Spiritual Teacher to revive us spiritually?

Those aren't great beings. They probably didn't even exist, and if they did they all suffered from a delusional disorder.

 

[siti]

The Mahabharata, one of the epics of Hinduism, has multiple mentions of the phrase Ahimsa Paramo Dharma (अहिंसा परमॊ धर्मः), which literally means: non-violence is the highest moral virtue.

Yes, I know - that was my point earlier when I suggested that perhaps Gandhi was a greater teacher than Krishna - Gandhi guided his followers to the "highest moral virtue" of non-violence whereas Krishna was able to guide Arjuna only to the secondary virtue of performing his military duty. And that's often the dilemma we are faced with - the choice between not what's good and what's bad but between what's right and what's best. But I guess you're right - you've got to have the heart for it before you can even invoke the intellect - otherwise, as you suggest - its all just words. I think, I hope, I have the heart for it - but as my own teacher (as we all are in the end) I fear I am going to end up more Krishna-like than Gandhi-like, admitting that, under the circumstances I'll just have to do what I have to do and settling (albeit reluctantly) for duty over moral excellence. I'm guessing that the majority of good-hearted people are in the same boat. But the question is - can another incarnation of a great spiritual educator help us resolve that internal conflict any better than those that have gone before - or will they end up - as all of the previous ones have done as far as I can see - leaving us with a religion that tantalizes the intellect with words of excelling virtue whilst binding the heart with chains of dutiful devotion in the apparently (to me at least) vain hope that this will ultimately liberate us from the conflict?

 

[David T]

Krishna is a deity, not a prophet.

How do we explain the others? First we have to prove they even existed. For that, some are harder than others. Past that? Messages from god were all the rage thousands of years ago, and primitive people were eager to eat it up. War is easy when you can justify it with a god.

What do primative people believe today from thousand dog years in the future? .

 

[David T]

These are



Those aren't great beings. They probably didn't even exist, and if they did they all suffered from a delusional disorder.

Reductionism is lame.

 

[The Kilted Heathen]

What do primative people believe today from thousand dog years in the future? .

Certainly far less people claiming to speak for god.

 

[Shad]

We are speaking about real life here not mythological characters only existing in comic books.

Odin is not a creation of comic books. You should look up Norse mythology and religion.

Norse Mythology for Smart People - The Ultimate Online Resource for Norse Mythology and Religion

 

[The Kilted Heathen]

He won't. I've noticed that the Baha'i's love to play tolerant, but they're just as bad as Christians or Muslims when it comes to looking down their nose at most non-Abrahamic faiths.

 

[loverofhumanity]

Odin is not a creation of comic books. You should look up Norse mythology and religion.

Norse Mythology for Smart People - The Ultimate Online Resource for Norse Mythology and Religion

I know where your coming from but I'm talking about the Prophets and Messengers. Thanks for the clarification anyway.

 

[loverofhumanity]

These are



Those aren't great beings. They probably didn't even exist, and if they did they all suffered from a delusional disorder.

I think it's very clear that they had a tremendous and still have an enormous influence on civilisation that's undeniable.

 

[Cobol]

Reductionism is lame.

I think it's very clear that they had a tremendous and still have an enormous influence on civilisation that's undeniable.

It seems your just afraid of reductionism.

Reductionism will always be a valid and useful methodology, and will always be necessary.

 

[loverofhumanity]

Nichiren Shonin predictions came true. He didnt see himself as just an educator but a votary of The Buddha. The Buddha isnt an Great Leader anymore than Nichiren and Sariputra. They all focused on the Person you to be enlighted. The only way to do that, according to The Buddha, is to step away from superstitious teachings of god/s (as so why he opposed Hinduism and other like teachings) again gods, abrahamic, bahai included, and specifialy train the mind. He wants you NOT to be depended on god, bab, and other people and things because they are external distractions of understanding the nature of life (karma), suffering, and everything else. They are illusions to enligtement.

The Buddha didnt see himself as great. He saw his Teachings, the Dharma as great. His disciples put him on a pedestol just as you do Bahaullah and a christian jesus. But their status by no means mean they are united by god or manefestation ofngod.

That, and Im interested in the Bahai view of Pagan gods. Ordin has just as much history And more than jesus and muhammad. Most Pagan religions are a hell of a lot older than bahai, islam, christianity, and other "prophet-faiths".

The Buddha, Muhmmad, Moses, and Christ did not see themselves as great if you are comparing them to the creator even as manefestations of such. Their teachings do not correlate with being the greatest because only the creator is the greatest in their eyez. There is no intermediary to help "translate" meaning from person to god. Non trinatiran christians, muslims, and jews go straight to god only.

Why would you see them as great when they consider themselves subordinste to the creator?

Why see The Buddha as great when he said he is just like you and even more so he isnt a person of worship. The Buddha has no value in the enlightement of The Buddhist (strictly speaking) it all goes to the Dharma.

Since Pagan gods exist just as the creator, krishna, and zoroaster, why arent they in your list?

What about the great people and gods in Paganisms that is different than that of The buddha and others?

At least Pagans do believe in gods. So, theyd be more closer on the manefestation list than The Buddha who believed in no gods as cornerstone of The Dharma.

Christianity makes sense, I just disagree with it.

Bahai does not make sense. If I uderstood it, then it would be easier to agree or disagree...

But why arent the pagan gods included and why krishna isnt an abrahamic deity so how can this great deity be a manefestation of a god thats non existant in the Hindu faith?

Lot of contradictions. Not talking about morals just plain facts.

We see them as great because of their teachings. Although there have been other Teachers, these particular ones, because they were sent by God, have a special place in human history.We don't worship them though. We do revere them however. The Buddha and His Teachings are revered.

God, our creator and fashioner of the universe, cares for each and every one of us and even sent us Educators to help us with our spiritual as well as social development.

Without these Educators humankind would be savages not having any emotions or thoughts and could not even tame the animals. With them however, we have soars into realms of thought and spirituality. We have discovered wonderful sciences to improve our lives and so forth.

They are great because without them & their guidance we would not progress. If the Buddha never appeared people would never have advanced spiritually, socially or scientifically.

The Baha'i Faith only recognizes one God not pagan gods.

Baha'u'llah's focus is on awakening our inner spirituality too but extends to the unity and spiritualisation of all humanity as a collective.

We believe Buddha and all the Teachers reappear from age to age and instruct us according to our development at the time. What was taught by Gautama is built on by other Teachers not entirely abolished.

So things like meditation and seeking spiritual enlightenment were kept by Bahaullah, but He abolished things like priesthood and Holy War as this age requires a more consultative approach than an authoritarian one.

 

[arthra]

I suggested that perhaps Gandhi was a greater teacher than Krishna - Gandhi guided his followers to the "highest moral virtue" of non-violence whereas Krishna was able to guide Arjuna only to the secondary virtue of performing his military duty.

Of course you realize Gandhi himself extolled the Gita.... The connection though that I see with Krishna and the other Personages listed in the thread is the statement made in the fourth chapter of the Gita itself...

Sloka 7
(Chapter 4)
YADA YADA HI DHARMASYA GLANIRBHAVATI BHARATA
ABHYUTTANAM ADHARMASYA TADAATMANAAM SRUJAMYAHAM.

O Bharata, whenever there is decline of righteousness
and rise of evil, I manifest Myself.

Lord Krishna (4.7-8)

 

[Shad]

I know where your coming from but I'm talking about the Prophets and Messengers. Thanks for the clarification anyway.

So? You dismissed a figure within a religion based on the wrong idea you held. This is no more than people dismissing your figures as they treat the Bible or Quran as comic like in nature such as fictional. This would be more likely a wrong idea they held according to you.

It is your view these people are Prophets and Messengers, not everyone's view.

 

[loverofhumanity]

There are many who were equal or higher in knowledge than these who never are remembered on the scale of human history because of many factors. It's the culture which seizes upon key individuals and turns them into symbols, which are greater than the individual themselves. They become mythologized, larger than life, deified, etc. In our doing this we create symbols for ourselves to aspire to. The reality of these individuals is far less impressive than our image of them we create for ourselves.


The reason a select few become mythologized by us is largely due to timing and cultural relevance. It's not that they themselves were the select, "chosen" few by God. These visionaries exist in all cultures and all ages, and it's simply a matter of which ones culture seize upon and turn into the mythological creatures were choose to revere and place our hopes in. It's really selective choices of the culture from the available pool of the gifted among us. They aren't "sent" by God for the age. We cull them out and deify them for ourselves and create religions around them as founding figures created largely in our own image.

Hi Windwalker. Great to see you again!!

I still am of the view that they had something no one else in human history had to enable them to influence so many generations up till today. There's only a unique handful who have achieved this and I can't put it down to such a random thing like timing, culture, luck or charisma.

You need those things but you also need a spirit that can withstand change and despite massive changes to our world, their Message keeps winning hearts and minds.

Buddha 2,500 years ago, Christ 2,000 years, Muhammad 1400. And what they achieved was without wealth or power and even intense opposition. Jesus a carpenter eventually won over Rome, Moses overcame Pharoah, Muhammad the Meccans. You know what I mean?

Without any wealth or power how have these Beings established their ascendancy and their Cause over all the world? What drove it if it wasn't money and power? Culture, charm ? Yes but you need more than that to survive and thrive thousands of years later.

If we could put our finger on it and bottle it don't you think men would have done it by now?

I put it down to God because that to me is the only way they could have and still have such a massive influence over billions of people thousands of years after they have died.

 

[loverofhumanity]

So? You dismissed a figure within a religion based on the wrong idea you held. This is no more than people dismissing your figures as they treat the Bible or Quran as comic like in nature such as fictional. This would be more likely a wrong idea they held according to you.

It is your view these people are Prophets and Messengers, not everyone's view.

We only know of a few recent Manifestations of God such as Krishna, Buddha, Moses, Christ, Zoroaster, Muhammad, the Bab and Baha'u'llah.

We don't know of other Manifestations before them but Baha'u'llah has stated that there were other Manifestations of God long ago but records have been lost so we only accept those in our recent history.

 

[Shad]

How do we explain these Great Beings: Buddha, Moses, Krishna, Christ, Zoroaster, Muhammad, the Bab & Bahaullah? They are somewhat unique and unparalleled in human history and were clearly not ordinary people.

The question you are missing is that are they unique on their own or because of the mythology built up by people. Did Moses split the Red Sea or is this merely a fiction which gives more importance to the figure?

There are famous people in history, famous artists, musicians and scientists but none can compare to the influence of the Educator, Teacher, Messiah or Prophet.

Of course not as none of these people have a following which treats and develops mythology about them.

But Who were they? And why were they and still are so influential throughout history?

They are religion figures. Hence why they are still influential. However you should consider without religion would any of this figures be of any note compared to figures that are not within a religion. Did Moses accomplish anything of worth outside religion such as Shakespeare or Newton?

Why did they inspire civilizations?

The stories about them certainly did.

Why have their scriptures become patterns of life followed daily by billions of people for thousands of years?

They are religious figures hence religions propagate their views.

What gift did they possess to be able to be persecuted, oppressed, tortured, exiled and crucified by the most despotic and powerful leaders of their age with but a handful of followers and yet eventually triumph over adversity and establish Their Cause all over the world?

Upset the status quo of their era according to the stories about them. Some of these figures had a large following. If you accept the Bibles claims Moses had over a million after the purges.

Statues, Churches, Temples, Pagodas, Mosques and Synagogues are built all over the world to pay tribute to these Great Souls.

Again another aspect of religion.

Are they from another world?

Are they even from this world or are the stories fictional?

Did they pre exist?

Some of their aspects follow common themes that existed in many cultures.

Without a special power how could they have accomplished what they did and who is their equal in influence?

There is no evidence that they accomplished anything that required special power. More so they are part of a religion thus are influence on that level. However did any of these figures influence anything outside of religion?

And aren't we in dire need of another Great Spiritual Teacher to revive us spiritually?

No. However if you are there are dozens you can pick from making grand claims about being a "Teacher", "Prophet", etc. For many they are happy with the figures they already have.

 

[loverofhumanity]

I don't believe any of these people are as unique or special as it seems. I believe there are millions if not billions of Buddhas out there right now. All speaking truth, to their friends, to their families, to their children, perhaps even to strangers. On occasion, circumstances conspire to make one of them famous, but that is not necessary. And if you think the world needs a Great Spiritual Teacher, then be one.

You make a good point in as much as the followers worked very hard to establish the truth. They are not to be forgotten.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

We see them as great because of their teachings. Although there have been other Teachers, these particular ones, because they were sent by God, have a special place in human history.We don't worship them though. We do revere them however. The Buddha and His Teachings are revered.

God, our creator and fashioner of the universe, cares for each and every one of us and even sent us Educators to help us with our spiritual as well as social development.

Without these Educators humankind would be savages not having any emotions or thoughts and could not even tame the animals. With them however, we have soars into realms of thought and spirituality. We have discovered wonderful sciences to improve our lives and so forth.

They are great because without them & their guidance we would not progress. If the Buddha never appeared people would never have advanced spiritually, socially or scientifically.

The Baha'i Faith only recognizes one God not pagan gods.

Baha'u'llah's focus is on awakening our inner spirituality too but extends to the unity and spiritualisation of all humanity as a collective.

We believe Buddha and all the Teachers reappear from age to age and instruct us according to our development at the time. What was taught by Gautama is built on by other Teachers not entirely abolished.

So things like meditation and seeking spiritual enlightenment were kept by Bahaullah, but He abolished things like priesthood and Holy War as this age requires a more consultative approach than an authoritarian one.

Krishna, Vishnu, and Saraswati are deities just as Atunis, Tammuz, Olofi, Orisa Oko, Kanaloa, Laka.

Why do you recognize Krishna and not the others?

I ask because if Bahai promotes unity of all faiths through the manifestations of one god (sorry if I mixed up the wording), then all educators, deities, and prophets should be sent by the same god not a selective few.

-

How can The Buddha be sent by a god that he has no awareness of?

If The Buddha was here now and you told him he was sent by god, what would you feel his reaction would be?

Its alright what your beliefs teaches but if you asked christ if The Bab is part of the manifestations as christ is to his father, he would probably say what he said to his own disciples.

The Bahai teachings support christianity, muslim, buddhism, hinduism, etc. These religions dont support Bahai. If they are sent by god, logically shouldnt there be a collective understanding on both sides who was sent by whom?

If The Buddha is great he would know he was sent by the god Bahai believe in. Through his Dharma, does it mention a creator and by his Dharma, how does that creator correlate with what Bahaullah says (not the other way around)?

But mostly Im curious about the Pagan god question bought up earlier and repeated by @Quintessence. I know Bahai doesnt believe in Pagan gods (and hopefully it wasnt you that called them comic book characters) but if they are sent by god, how would that matter any more than The Buddha or Krishna. All three religions are hugely different than Bahai. (Not the other way around). Has to go both ways.

 

[Shad]

We only know of a few recent Manifestations of God such as Krishna, Buddha, Moses, Christ, Zoroaster, Muhammad, the Bab and Baha'u'llah.

No you consider these people as such. Your view is not a view of everyone nor even credible outside of religion.

We don't know of other Manifestations before them but Baha'u'llah has stated that there were other Manifestations of God long ago but records have been lost so we only accept those in our recent history.

No your acceptance is based on religious doctrine and dogma nothing more. The rest is an argument from ignorance and an assertion. You are projecting turning your view into a view held by more than just yourself and your co-religionists.