How are these Great Beings explained?

[DavidFirth]

Hi David,

Thank you for your response.



So who were these eye witnesses? You don't see a plausibility problem with the resurrection story?



The consensus of scientists would disagree. There are a few YEC scientist though who would agree with you.

There is only a plausibility problem when you try to explain it any other way except the resurrection.

I don't depend on a bunch of guessers who are often wrong. I depend on God.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

How about one who seekethed it, and found the Baha'i Faith, and then rejected it?

Bahaullah says, there are certain prerequisites for a true seeker. It in Book of Iqan. You can find it there.

 

[CG Didymus]

Ishmael was born about 12 years before Isaac so he was an only son. The Quran was the Revelation given by God to Muhammad and collected over 23 years in the lifetime of Muhammad.

Baha'u'llah confirms that the version in the Quran is the accurate one. It's a matter of whether we accept Baha'u'llah as the Manifestation of God which we Baha'is do, so this is not an issue for us.

So Genesis is wrong? So the first questions is: Did Moses write Genesis? Second, why would someone change it? Third, why didn't Jesus correct it? Fourth, is Isaac the son of the "promise"?

 

[Unveiled Artist]

In response, do I not have the right to experience Christ and believe in Him as a Baha'i? Why do I need permission from Christians to determine what I can and can't believe in? I call myself a Baha'i.

Christianity is a communal faith as many older faiths are. The younger the denomination, the less traditional, I guess, they are. I notice the older one goes back, in Pagan religions included, there are always initiations and cultural things involved with believing in god(s) and so forth. It wasn't an isolated thing "believe in god and christ message" and boom! You're saved. I mean, JW probably don't admit it like this but they have a community unit to with history and culture that defines what they do as witnesses for god.

In my opinion you only need permission to "enter someone's home" if you are agreeing to eat with them at the same table. If you're just friends on the street and like the way they see things, that's all good. But as a communal religion, baptist included-believe me, I don't know who is more communal that I've experienced, catholic (epis/presy/etc), southern baptist, or JW.

But all churches seem to have a thing about "the body" of christ. Scripture always refers to The Body. Chosen People. things like that. It's always a group not individual.

So, yeah, in my opinion, if you're going full blown christian-practicing with the body-then yes, they need your permission and you need theirs.

It's a family.

However I am clear that I believe in the same God, Jesus, and Bible as the Christians. I believe Jesus spoke of His return and that Baha'u'llah is the Return of Christ.That is who I am. I may be right or wrong, but I am sincere in my belief and I have the right to be a Baha'i just as you have the right to define your beliefs and values. I am very clear about my beliefs and where the boundaries lie.

Not talking about you It isn't about you. It's about others. Christianity: brothers and sisters as a service to humanity in communion with god by practicing and being the message/body/passion of his son.

It's a family unit. So, I would only consider you Bahai. I mean, I have a lot of Catholic beliefs but I personally will not say I am Spiritualist, Buddhist, and Catholic. I put Catholic aside because I am not part of the body. I will be disrespecting them to place myself in the body when I sinned. Spiritualist just means someone who believes in family in spirit after death and healing and mediumship. The Dhamma is what I believe in internally in full. If I get initiated this September 3 (met a monk who invited me to make the jump just totally out of the blue), then I won't say I'm Spiritualist because I don't have that connection with the other people.

I'm all about connection with others. It's no about me. I have values outside of these darn labels they have on this website; but, beyond the labels, I'm just me: a lover. a dreamer. and me.

I appreciate that you have a different relationship with the catholic church but I do not identify with any church or Christian denomination. I simply share many mainstream Christian beliefs with my Christian brothers and sisters, but am clear about the differences too, such as the divinity of Christ and His resurrection..

Shrugs. The Church changes ya' (for better or for worse I guess)

 

[CG Didymus]

There is only a plausibility problem when you try to explain it any other way except the resurrection.

I don't depend on a bunch of guessers who are often wrong. I depend on God.

David, have you read Loverofhumanity's posts (8327 and 8453) where he is saying that Ishmael, not Isaac, was the one Abraham took to be sacrificed? If not, could you take a look at them and comment on them? It's incredibly important, because it is making the story in Genesis 21 wrong and taking the story from the Quran that it was Ishmael right.

 

[Dawnofhope]

There is only a plausibility problem when you try to explain it any other way except the resurrection.

In that case plausibility is in the eye of the beholder...it appears plausible if you believe it, and implausible if you don't. Doesn't really say a lot...

I don't depend on a bunch of guessers who are often wrong. I depend on God.

I depend on God too. I don't feel the need to label those who disagree with me 'guessers' with the presumption that I have certainty.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

For that matter, do all Baha'i' believe the same thing?

Baha'i Faith has Scriptures that teaches Bahai beliefs. It has clear interpretations. If a Bahai wants to know about a particular Bahai teaching, he can refer to Bahai Writings. There is only one set of Writings. In this regard, the difference between Bahai Faith, and older religions such as Islam is that, for example, Sunni Muslims have their own recorded Traditions, and Shias have their own traditions. Each sect, thus has their own sources to give them a different interpretations.
Christians do not have interpretation writings by the Christ apostles. Thus, different groups of Christians came up with their own interpretations, which are different from each other. Bahais, on the other hand agree on their Sources for Bahais.

 

[Vinayaka]

Let me quote Elvis, "Thank you... Thank you very much."

I've been the "True Believer" in a couple of religions and had a conversation with a guy. I thought, "Wow, this guy is really interested". I was wrong. He had never heard of the religion and just wanted to what my beliefs were. But assuming I was about to make a convert, I asked, "Would you like to go to a meeting and learn more?" He said, "No, I'm Jewish."

I have never proselytized again... And, not long after I quit being a True Believer and became a listener and questioner, and for those that don't impose their beliefs, a respecter.

I would be the worst possible proselytizer. Imagine a used car salesman telling you every possible thing wrong with the car. Not in the genes I'm afraid.

 

[Vinayaka]

Baha'i Faith has Scriptures that teaches Bahai beliefs. It has clear interpretations.

Not my impression from what little I've read, or from the different interpretations given by the Baha'i's on here. There are tons of contradictions, mainly because you guys believe in several religions that conflict with each other. But you're a Baha'i' and programmed to think it's clear. To you, Hinduism is very muddy. So it's all a matter of bias, from one's experiences.

 

[DavidFirth]

David, have you read Loverofhumanity's posts (8327 and 8453) where he is saying that Ishmael, not Isaac, was the one Abraham took to be sacrificed? If not, could you take a look at them and comment on them? It's incredibly important, because it is making the story in Genesis 21 wrong and taking the story from the Quran that it was Ishmael right.

I am well aware of how Mohammed rewrote Genesis to suit his own taste. Mohammed was a liar and false prophet as far as I'm concerned.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

The writers of the NT say, if not them directly, that there were many eyewitnesses. Supposedly dead people came out of their graves when Jesus was killed. Then many people saw him alive after he had been crucified. Plausibile? No, stupid, crazy, looney tunes kind of stuff... but Christians believe it is true.

Baha'i tell them they believe in the NT and in Jesus, but not like Christians believe it.

So, you believe, the Bible Writers wrote myths? what was the purpose of Authors of Bible of writing these Myths? And How do you know their purpose?

 

[Vinayaka]

Do all Hindus agree that Hinduism is not Scripture based?

Yes I think they do. Of course some go to the Gita more than others for example. Recent converts to Hinduism from Abrahamism often carry that 'baggage' (concept) with them. But born Hindus most certainly aren't. I think the most common thread might be temple worship, and direct communion with God.

 

[DavidFirth]

In that case plausibility is in the eye of the beholder...it appears plausible if you believe it, and implausible if you don't. Doesn't really say a lot...

If Christ didn't rise from the dead, what happened to His remains? To think His disciples over powered the Roman guards, rolled the stone away and took the body isn't plausible. The Roman soldiers would have made mincemeat of them.

 

[Dawnofhope]

Trust me, I know very little about what the Baha'i' faith actually believes, with so many different takes just on this forum alone. I can't imagine actually spending enough time to sort it all out. Much better things to do with my life.

Unfortunately, the correction of misrepresentations is still a real challenge. You personally have at least acknowledged a lot. Thanks again for the humility to do that.

I wouldn't expect anymore than gaining a glimpse into the basics as I try to do with Hinduism. You may know very little but I think you know more than you say. It has been nearly 6 months now that this thread has continued and in all the posts and comments there has been much learnt by us all.

In some ways I'm here to correct misunderstandings about the Baha'i Faith as you are in regards to Hinduism. Of course there will be different understandings but always a body of authentic and authoritative writings the Baha'i can turn to for clarity. Information about Hinduism is freely available too and that website you recommended has been really helpful. I've learnt to go easy on the quotes from writings as it makes these discussions less conversation and friendly.

 

[Vinayaka]

Let me quote Elvis, "Thank you... Thank you very much."

I've been the "True Believer" in a couple of religions and had a conversation with a guy. I thought, "Wow, this guy is really interested". I was wrong. He had never heard of the religion and just wanted to what my beliefs were. But assuming I was about to make a convert, I asked, "Would you like to go to a meeting and learn more?" He said, "No, I'm Jewish."

I have never proselytized again... And, not long after I quit being a True Believer and became a listener and questioner, and for those that don't impose their beliefs, a respecter.

I like the Jews. We attended a satsang with my Guru about a year ago, and the host family had her Jewish friend from Princeton University visiting Canada for a couple weeks. She attended respectfully, and asked the best questions.

 

[Vinayaka]

In some ways I'm here to correct misunderstandings about the Baha'i Faith as you are in regards to Hinduism. Of course there will be different understandings but always a body of authentic and authoritative writings the Baha'i can turn to for clarity.

Not just the Baha'i'. The other day I looked up some of Effendi's thoughts to support myself in a debate with another Baha'i'. Amazing how two people can get two entirely differing meanings from the same words.

Are you in a university where you have to teach part time, or are there interns with you in your field? If so, then you would know how absolutely clear you have to be so you don't deliver mixed messages.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

Not my impression from what little I've read, or from the different interpretations given by the Baha'i's on here. There are tons of contradictions, mainly because you guys believe in several religions that conflict with each other. But you're a Baha'i' and programmed to think it's clear. To you, Hinduism is very muddy. So it's all a matter of bias, from one's experiences.

I have read almost all posts by Bahai members in this thread. I did not find any significant contradictions. Each may express the Bahai View from a different angle. For example all Bahais agree, God is unknowable. All agree, our purpose is to know God. An apparent contradiction. But in reality there is no contradiction, because what is meant here is, the Essence of God is unknowable, and no one is able to Know God's knowledge directly. We can know Him through His Manifestations. So, those other contradictions also similarly are reconcilable if correctly understood.

 

[Dawnofhope]

If Christ didn't rise from the dead, what happened to His remains? To think His disciples over powered the Roman guards, rolled the stone away and took the body isn't plausible. The Roman soldiers would have made mincemeat of them.

I think we would be struggling to find the remains of anyone who died nearly 2000 years ago. The inability to do this doesn't prove a resurrection.

 

[Vinayaka]

I have read almost all posts by Bahai members. I did not find any significant contradictions. Each may express the Bahai View from a different angle. For example all Bahais agree, God is unknowable. All agree, our purpose is to know God. An apparent contradiction. But in reality there is no contradiction, because what is meant here is, the Essence of God is unknowable, and no one is able to Know God's knowledge directly. We can know Him through His Manifestations. So, those other contradictions also similarly are reconcilable if correctly understood.

Sure. Hasn't been my experience, but sure.

 

[DavidFirth]

I think we would be struggling to find the remains of anyone who died nearly 2000 years ago. The inability to do this doesn't prove a resurrection.

It's important, though. I strongly encourage you to look into it.

If Christ rose from the dead He is the Son of God.
If He did not He was just another man.