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How are these Great Beings explained?

Unveiled Artist

Veteran Member
Because the body of Christ is really the community of His Faithful believers and I feel part of that. It is a great joy and source of happiness.

That is why the reserection is literal. As a community of believers, in order to be in union with god, you shed your body and unite with spirit.

Unlesz your union is symbolic, to christians its literal.

If you really believe in the community of believers, all of you will have the same core view and all of you would believe your faith is literal.

Unless your (body of believers) faith is symbolic?

Edit

Also, being part of the body is literally worshiping together. Do you worship with christians and bahai in two different houses of worship?
 

InvestigateTruth

Veteran Member
...
Also, I can talk about anything without believing in it. I just know that you guys are wrong about Christianity and Buddhism but I don't need to believe in Christianity to prove it (debate) and I will not post suttas to prove you wrong since that's against The Buddha's teachings.
Yes, of course you can talk about anything without believing it. Everyone has the right to express, wrong or right, true or false.
A person may say, in Islam there are 4 Gods. Two big, 2 small. Another person may say in Christianity, God has 3 daughters. Regardless true, false, honest or dishonest.

But if we want to have a meaningful discussion, to show a correct view, one needs to support it based on the Authentic Scriptures, that originally defines that Religion. So, if a person want to say, what Islam teaches about God, it can only be considered as the correct view of Islam, if it is shown what the Scriptures of Islam says; Quran and authentic Hadith. To say something without backing it up with Scriptures, does not provide a valid evidence. To say, the Mainstream Muslim, say so, or Christian mainstream say, so, is not a scientific way of verification. So, it is fine, if you want to express the Christianity view, without believing it, but you need to back it up with exact Scripture if you want to provide evidence that what you express, is indeed what Christianity teaches originally. I hope this is clear.
Just because some Christian denominations were not majority, does not mean their understanding was wrong, and just because the main streams are majority, does not mean they are right about every interpretation of Bible. The Bible itself is the standard to determine the Christianity.
Jesus never said, just the majority view is correct. He did not say, His teachings belong to those who call themselves Christians. We need to be accurate about our statements, if we like to have a fair and valid discussion.
 
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InvestigateTruth

Veteran Member
Not according to Hinduism, Tony. In Hinduism, the goal is to know God, and that goal is achievable. Do I need to get 100 quotes from Hindu teachers?
In Bahai Faith also, we believe we are created to know God.
We know God, through His manifestations though. Directly is not possible to have access to the knowledge of God. Nobody can see God, how can we know Him directly when we do not see Him physically?
 

InvestigateTruth

Veteran Member
That is why the reserection is literal. As a community of believers, in order to be in union with god, you shed your body and unite with spirit.

Unlesz your union is symbolic, to christians its literal.

If you really believe in the community of believers, all of you will have the same core view and all of you would believe your faith is literal.

Unless your (body of believers) faith is symbolic?

Edit

Also, being part of the body is literally worshiping together. Do you worship with christians and bahai in two different houses of worship?
When you say Resurrection is literal, it appears you are expressing the mainstream Christian view. They believe Jesus literally and physically rose from dead, and then His physical and glorified body went to sky.
But if you do not mean, the way mainstream Christians believe it, then it is not called 'literal', anymore. It is symbolic, spiritual, or mystical interpretation.
 

Unveiled Artist

Veteran Member
But if we want to have a meaningful discussion, to show a correct view, one needs to support it based on the Authentic Scriptures, that originally defines that Religion.

So, if a person want to say, what Islam teaches about God, it can only be considered as the correct view of Islam, if it is shown what the Scriptures of Islam says; Quran and authentic Hadith. To say something without backing it up with Scriptures, does not provide a valid evidence.

To say, the Mainstream Muslim, say so, or Christian mainstream say, so, is not a scientific way of verification. So, it is fine, if you want to express the Christianity view, without believing it, but you need to back it up with exact Scripture if you want to provide evidence that what you express, is indeed what Christianity teaches originally. I hope this is clear.

I'd counter that not all christian denominations use scripture as a necessity to backup the validity of their experiences and knowledge. It's like telling you my name is Mary Poppins. You may second guess me but if it was genuine, you'd probably believe me since I may tell you that's one of my favorite disney and my mother decided to name me after my favorite actor (or so have you). It's not something you'd want evidence for because like asking a name or street where you live, it's common knowledge the person who answers knows enough about his name or where he lives that you don't have to ask him to give you a map first to see if the street exists.

Same as religion. It should not be any different. If religion is supposed to be a fact to you and god is 100 percent absolutely real, your experiences and what you say should reflect that fact. If I asked you "how did you know god exist?" Like asking your name, I shouldn't need a scripture for me to validate your experience because it is your faith and what you know is fact.

I don't belittle man or not trust man in relation to anything sacred. That's counterproductive to any peace among humanity.

In another thread, I was telling one member why doesn't he go straight to christ rather than to the translators, apostles, then christ. She's steadily telling me the bible is the same as god. If a child can tell me "ma! I wanna be like jesus" (I heard before Mass... very cute) without him even knowing how to read, than an adult can do the same without needing a sacred book.

It's beyond books. Your experience with god to me shouldn't be about material things if you honestly feel material things gets it the way of your faith. You can't say "we don't want manmade things" but then say "but we just just these people that they are telling the truth but not the rest of you guys." It's a hypocritical statement.

Just because some Christian denominations were not majority, does not mean their understanding was wrong, and just because the main streams are majority, does not mean they are right about every interpretation of Bible. The Bible itself is the standard to determine the Christianity.

Well, religion shouldn't be about right and wrong. That's how people get killed in our wars. Living by one person's morality rather than consulting people as a team.

Jesus never said, just the majority view is correct. He did not say, His teachings belong to those who call themselves Christians. We need to be accurate about our statements, if we like to have a fair and valid discussion.

Christians are brothers and sisters in christ. Christ always referred to believers as brothers and sisters. You are very sola scriptura. I am not. Christ didn't say the word heterosexuality but you can tell by context he differentiated it between homosexuality.

It's all about context.
 

Unveiled Artist

Veteran Member
When you say Resurrection is literal, it appears you are expressing the mainstream Christian view. They believe Jesus literally and physically rose from dead, and then His physical and glorified body went to sky.
But if you do not mean, the way mainstream Christians believe it, then it is not called 'literal', anymore. It is symbolic, spiritual, or mystical interpretation.

I don't see christ as superman, if that's the type of literal you're referring to.

Real people have a real union with god. Real people have real flesh and they really do commit real sins. When they die in real life and live in spirit since spirit doesn't die, according to christianity, depending on how one lived on earth is depending on whether one still lives after death.

The resurrection is just the last half of the process of salvation. Life-death-resurrection. You can see it as symbolism but many christians who literally come together as one body are saved together and in that salvation, they believe their old self has gone, and their new self in christ has risen-and every time they rise in spirit they are in union with god. But many denominations only "rise" once or twice a month.

Christ was showing through his flesh and body rising that christians will rise, shed old bodies, have new ones, and be in union with god.

It's literally being crucified in christ so you don't live for yourself anymore but for the son of god.

but superman. just body of christ being saved through christ's literal resurrection in flesh (sin) and transformed to spirit (god).
 

Vinayaka

devotee
Premium Member
In Bahai Faith also, we believe we are created to know God.
We know God, through His manifestations though. Directly is not possible to have access to the knowledge of God. Nobody can see God, how can we know Him directly when we do not see Him physically?


Thank you for the explanation. Now I see what your prophet/manifestation meant. They only menat via the manifestation. Since I don't believe in manifestations at all, that belief is foreign to me. In Hinduism, as with other relations, communing, etc., it is always directly from person to God. There are no intermediaries. We don't believe you need another person to see God, or to open the door for you. We can open those doors all by ourselves.
 

Vinayaka

devotee
Premium Member
But if we want to have a meaningful discussion, to show a correct view, one needs to support it based on the Authentic Scriptures, that originally defines that Religion.

Why do you get to impose the rules to have a meaningful discussion? Lots of people can have meaningful discussions about faith without quoting scripture all the time. Perhaps the other people in the discussion should have some say as well, but I suppose that's too much to ask?
 

CG Didymus

Veteran Member
It is Bahau'llah that gave the message, not the folowers.

To be true to Christ one must Test the Prophets. To say He is Wrong must be scriptural.

Be well and happy

Regards Tony
You know the problem. Christians do use the Bible to tell you how and when Jesus will come back. Baha'is tell them he already came back and show their Bible references. Like I said 2000 posts ago or so, I went to the Jews and asked them. They gave very good reason why Baha'u'llah and Jesus are not their Messiah... but again, it is their interpretation of their Scriptures... not a Christian or Baha'i interpretation.
 

InvestigateTruth

Veteran Member
Thank you for the explanation. Now I see what your prophet/manifestation meant. They only menat via the manifestation. Since I don't believe in manifestations at all, that belief is foreign to me. In Hinduism, as with other relations, communing, etc., it is always directly from person to God. There are no intermediaries. We don't believe you need another person to see God, or to open the door for you. We can open those doors all by ourselves.
Do all Hindu denominations agree that they can have access to knowledge of God directly? If yes, why some Hindu denominations believe they need Avatars?
 

CG Didymus

Veteran Member
Why do you get to impose the rules to have a meaningful discussion? Lots of people can have meaningful discussions about faith without quoting scripture all the time. Perhaps the other people in the discussion should have some say as well, but I suppose that's too much to ask?
How can it be meaningful if Baha'i say that none of the other Scriptures are accurate? They are the only ones that have the "true" interpretations of the other religions.

How does that conversation go... "My religion believes such and such." The Baha'i, "Oh, that's not what your prophet originally taught." "What? I'm reading it right here from my Scriptures." The Baha'i, "That's not what it means. Let me tell you what your prophet said and meant." "How do you know what he said?" The Baha'i, "Baha'u'llah and Abdu'l Baha told us what he meant... and they are infallible." "Okay, well thanks for the one way conversation."
 

InvestigateTruth

Veteran Member
You know the problem. Christians do use the Bible to tell you how and when Jesus will come back. Baha'is tell them he already came back and show their Bible references. Like I said 2000 posts ago or so, I went to the Jews and asked them. They gave very good reason why Baha'u'llah and Jesus are not their Messiah... but again, it is their interpretation of their Scriptures... not a Christian or Baha'i interpretation.
Yes, everyone is responsible for their own belief.
 
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InvestigateTruth

Veteran Member
Well, religion shouldn't be about right and wrong. That's how people get killed in our wars. Living by one person's morality rather than consulting people as a team.
Religion is a set of beliefs and teachings. It is a way of life for many people. If the Religious beliefs are false, it causes the believers of that religion to do wrong things, to live the life in the wrong way, and to imagine superstitions to be true. This is why it is important to choose the right religion.
 

CG Didymus

Veteran Member
As we read through the chapter Acts 1 we soon come to the following verses:

9 And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight.
10 And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel;
11 Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.


If you want to understand it literally, it makes no sense. We have a man rising up into the sky which is likened to heaven.

I doubt if you believe this to be true, and most Christians are too attached to their literal understanding to see it any other way.
Why would Luke be speaking symbolically?

Knowing that in those times many mystical things were believed to be actually happening all around them, I would believe that he meant to be something that really happened.

But to us now a days, I would question if Jesus rose in the air, walked on water, turned water into wine, cast out demons, had a conversation with Satan etc. So I would take them as mythical events.
 

Dawnofhope

Non-Proselytizing Baha'i
Staff member
Premium Member
Hi David,

Thank you for your response.

Well, there were several eyewitness testimonies from reliable people were there. So there is that.

So who were these eye witnesses? You don't see a plausibility problem with the resurrection story?

No one ever saw macroevolution, abiogenesis or the big bang so I'd say the resurrection of Christ has a lot more going for it.

The consensus of scientists would disagree. There are a few YEC scientist though who would agree with you.
 

Unveiled Artist

Veteran Member
In Bahai Faith also, we believe we are created to know God.
We know God, through His manifestations though. Directly is not possible to have access to the knowledge of God. Nobody can see God, how can we know Him directly when we do not see Him physically?

Can prayer let you know god directly? Silent being in his presence?

If the prophets can talk one to one with god without seeing his face, why can't you? (Reflective question)
 

CG Didymus

Veteran Member
Yes, everyone is responsible for their own belief.
But you tell them their beliefs about their own religion has spoiled, has been altered, or has been misinterpreted. So the only religious unity would be if they believe what you say about their old religion and come to believe the Baha'i Faith is the fulfillment and continuation, with massive changes, of their old religion.
 

InvestigateTruth

Veteran Member
Why do you get to impose the rules to have a meaningful discussion? Lots of people can have meaningful discussions about faith without quoting scripture all the time. Perhaps the other people in the discussion should have some say as well, but I suppose that's too much to ask?
I agree. All i am saying, we cannot play a double standard. If I speak to a person about Christian teachings, those teachings must be from Christ, otherwise it cannot be said it is truly Christianity, since Christ founded Christianity.
People are free to discuss their own ideas, and still be meaningful. But if their ideas are not really from Bible, why should they attribute them to Christianity?
Suppose a person says something, and he claims it is Islamic or Hindu teachings, but it is not really found in Islamic Scriptures or Hindu Scriptures. So, if we are discussing about a particular religion, then it should be based on the Scriptures. If we are not talking based on Scriptures and the idea is not in Scriptures, would it be meaningful and honest conversation to say it is from that Religion?
 

Unveiled Artist

Veteran Member
Religion is a set of beliefs and teachings. It is a way of life for many people. If the Religious beliefs are false, it causes the believers of that religion to do wrong things, to live the life in the wrong way, and to imagine superstitions to be true. This is why it is important to choose the right religion.

There is no "right" religion. When people in history had their "right" religion it caused wars. The reason is that people were told to believe in X when their culture, belief, and community believed in Y. So, basically, they got killed for being human. Certain religions not what people choose but who people are. So you can't pick the right self. You are just, yourself. Whether you want to follow a religious structure to follow your morals is dependant on the person.

But in itself, religion isn't about right and wrong. My religion isn't about right and wrong but (and thinking of being an initiated Buddhist in Sept 3 so not to confuse you) but what you understand about life itself-rebirth. Everything changing. No "eternal life". Nothing permanent. Being comfortable with uncertainty. Things of that nature.

When you get to that level of understanding, there is no universal right and wrong but the morality comes from that person and their faith. There is no right faith because everyone is different.

What is the right religion?

Why should we follow the right religion as opposed to other 99% other
religions?

By who or what criteria can one universally decide what's right (pretending for sake of argument, being right is a universal concept rather than a personal one)?
 

InvestigateTruth

Veteran Member
But you tell them their beliefs about their own religion has spoiled, has been altered, or has been misinterpreted. So the only religious unity would be if they believe what you say about their old religion and come to believe the Baha'i Faith is the fulfillment and continuation, with massive changes, of their old religion.
It is not as you are describing it here.
Bahais provide the information they believe are correct. People are free to accept or reject. Bahais do not insist.
Bahais believe everyone should be free to express their view. Wrong or right. Bahais have the same right too.
 
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