How are these Great Beings explained?

[loverofhumanity]

If that be the case, you would not believe in god.

Can you please elaborate? Sutta number?

There is only one sun. Just because you see different raws, doesn't mean they are different than each other. It's one sun, rays and all. What you're saying, instead, is the moon is the same as the sun because they are both in the universe. And even if you accept the moon and sun are different, you still try to put them together to make it unified rather than knowing these are different "things" and made up of different characteristics to make one completely different than the other.

Yes the sun and the moon are different bodies but reflect the same light of the one sun.

Everyone has their own orange juice and apple juice. Don't put it together and say everyone can take a class (or does). Everyone else acknowledges that apples and oranges are different. Even UU respects differences and says that each person can believe his or her own beliefs and the unification is not by a founder but by shared communion of peace and unity among diversity.

You're placing god and a founder in this. This automatically takes you out of the game.

We believe in unity in diversity and the freedom of each person to choose his/her own religion.

We have a Founder of our religion and respect the Founders of the others. As you have a Founder so have we. We just happen to accept all the Founders and their Holy Books.

That's why we have many truths (or things we hold as true/fact) and because they are diverse, they will contradict each other. That does not mean they are not true/fact. Just as I'm not Hindu, Muslim, or Christian, so I don't see these religions as facts but that's okay because I don't put their religion (spirit or not) into my faith just because I share goals and one humanity with them. I feel that is total disrespect, one because I am not practicing with them, and two, it's personal bias because I am a minority, and three I am not part of their traditions, culture, and language.

That's perfectly fine.

But unlike many religions outside Eastern ones, I don't discredit other people what they hold true just because they contradict each other. That's silly. Respect goes beyond acceptance and learning differences.

Very good willed and good spirited attitude.

Many pieces. There are thousands of puzzles. Say they are all fractured. That doesn't mean all pieces go to one puzzle. Solve each puzzle separately. It's not saying these are not all puzzles since puzzles do have something in common to be called a puzzle. It just means try not to fit a circle where a square should be all because it's a puzzle piece just like the rest.

They wouldn't fit anyway

Another statement that does not bring unity. You're saying because other pieces are disjointed, they cannot be put together. Well, if you are making them a part of your puzzle, of course not. If you respect them and let them solve their own puzzle, that's respect. In my view, it has nothing to do with god. In Christian view, it has to do with Jesus. In Muslim and Jewish view it is about the creator. In Hindu there are many things that put their puzzle together. It may contradict to you but you are not Hindu. So....

Yes, everyone needs to work it out for him/herself.

Will you have missing pieces if you finally accept that other people have their own puzzle?

Everyone will have to find that out for themselves.

 

[loverofhumanity]

I know what you believe, though. So, that's odd. How would I ask you a question so you can learn more about what I believe? If anything, you'd ask questions about what I post in my other posts and get in deeper rather than tell me what you believe. I can only reply to your posts and I reply practically the same because there is nothing really new. So maybe learn about how I see things.

But it's not about my asking you questions (that's weird). You have to be interested and ask questions about me and the posts I write. If you don't understand a concept I said, ask about it. I've never said "I believe this is true..." as a rebuttle for your posts. I've always used what you said and replied to the concept or point of what you're trying to make.

It has to work both ways to be a productive debate.

Yes. As you can see I'm terrible with words. Why would I say for you to ask questions. How stupid of me.

I meant Id like to understand you better.

Cultural appropriation is a sore point with you. I understand exploitation is wrong but why do you keep saying we're doing it?

Is it just general mistrust or us specifically?

 

[loverofhumanity]

There you go, contradicting yourself again. The box that you have put 'truth' in is called 'Oneness'. So which is it, oneness, or not oneness?

Good point. It's just a word. But I don't think the reality is a box at all.

All words are really boxes.

Truth cannot be contained in words alone. Any spiritual person knows that. But in this world words are boxes we use to try to communicate and convey ideas to each other however inadequate. But all words and concepts in words are really boxes.

We are all limited by our own limitations.

 

[loverofhumanity]

Fact meaning I know The Buddha's words are true (not as in truth to separate the two) just as I know two and two is four.

It's not a metaphor. I don't accept parts. I don't accept it just in concept. Nor do I accept it just or it's goals and how it relates to me. I accept it because I know it's true/fact regardless if I practice it or not.

Same as mathematics. I know two and two is four even if I don't become a mathematician.

1. What do you mean by truth?

If something is true/fact, then that's what it is. It doesn't need us to believe in it to be true. How does truth factor into this?

Yes I understand. You know it's true as one and one is two. Great. I mean the same that I know it's true.

 

[Vinayaka]

Spiritual knowledge is completely different to human learning. A person who can't count the number of days in a week may have a high spiritual station.

Maybe there's deep spiritual truth behind what I say or maybe you're right and it's just all rubbish. That's for you to decide which I think you already have.

I believe there is a spiritual truth in all faiths, just not the same spiritual truth.

There are many kinds of learning. We learn to walk, (physical) we learn to share (spiritual) we learn to cry (emotional) . I used to coach, and I had what I termed 'uncoachable athletes'. They figured they knew it all, and I was an idiot, so it was difficult to help them improve at all, so stuck in the box of ego they were.

 

[Vinayaka]

Good point. It's just a word. But I don't think the reality is a box at all.

All words are really boxes.

Truth cannot be contained in words alone. Any spiritual person knows that. But in this world words are boxes we use to try to communicate and convey ideas to each other however inadequate. But all words and concepts in words are really boxes.

We are all limited by our own limitations.

Again ... avoiding the question ... Which is it? Oneness, or not oneness?

 

[loverofhumanity]

Maybe you can. I don't. You keep changing the topic, avoiding the questions. But I've come to expect it.
You honestly can't see the differences?

I can say, "If you got past your oneness, you could see the differences."

I can see the outward differences but no difference spiritually.

Ther are no 'spiritual' contradictions between any of the religions whatsoever.

The ceremonies, rituals, outward appearances, social laws etc can contradict.

But the inner meditative state, the mystical element and the spiritual virtues are all the same.

 

[loverofhumanity]

Again ... avoiding the question ... Which is it? Oneness, or not oneness?

I don't understand. I'm not avoiding anything. Oneness or not oneness?

Yes I believe in oneness. I'm not sure if this answers the question or not. I apologise if not.

 

[loverofhumanity]

I believe there is a spiritual truth in all faiths, just not the same spiritual truth.

There are many kinds of learning. We learn to walk, (physical) we learn to share (spiritual) we learn to cry (emotional) . I used to coach, and I had what I termed 'uncoachable athletes'. They figured they knew it all, and I was an idiot, so it was difficult to help them improve at all, so stuck in the box of ego they were.

I honour you that you have goodwill towards all. Yes they all definitely teach different truths.

 

[Vinayaka]

Ther are no 'spiritual' contradictions between any of the religions whatsoever.

Oversimplification entirely, but that's how universalist sects operate. If you go out and read several texts from different religions, you will find wildly differing interpretations of inner 'truth's. If you speak to adherents of different faiths, they will tell you something different too, just as I am here.

Which is it? Reincarnation, or heaven/hell? Which is it, oneness, or not oneness.

These simplistic platitudes don't work for me. If you want to believe that, fine.

 

[Vinayaka]

I don't understand. I'm not avoiding anything. Oneness or not oneness?

Yes I believe in oneness. I'm not sure if this answers the question or not. I apologise if not.

I asked you to make up your mind about what you believe, that's all, because you play the political game of just agreeing with whatever is there in the moment. At one point you said the truth is 'oneness', and then later you said it isn't. So ... which is it?

 

[Vinayaka]

I honour you that you have goodwill towards all. Yes they all definitely teach different truths.

Which is in obvious contradiction to what you said earlier.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Sheesh. You have to click on the links I give you that support what I'm saying. I gave you a link about The Buddha and god hundreds of posts ago.

Can you please elaborate? Sutta number?

1. The Buddha and a Personal God (You have posted commentary from scholars etc so I will do this as well)

In Buddhist literature, the belief in a creator god (issara-nimmana-vada) is frequently mentioned and rejected, along with other causes wrongly adduced to explain the origin of the world; as, for instance, world-soul, time, nature, etc. God-belief, however, is placed in the same category as those morally destructive wrong views which deny the kammic results of action, assume a fortuitous origin of man and nature, or teach absolute determinism. These views are said to be altogether pernicious, having definite bad results due to their effect on ethical conduct. ~Nyanaponika Thera

2. In Buddhism, Pali Canan, god is referred to as Brahma. In his
Brahma-nimantanika Sutta: The Brahma Invitation

3. Brahma-nimantanika Sutta: The Brahma Invitation


"When this was said, I told Baka Brahma, 'How immersed in ignorance is Baka Brahma! How immersed in ignorance is Baka Brahma! — in that what is actually inconstant he calls "constant." What is actually impermanent he calls "permanent." What is actually non-eternal he calls "eternal." What is actually partial he calls "total." What is actually subject to falling away he calls "not subject to falling away." Where one takes birth, ages, dies, falls away, and reappears, he says, "For here one does not take birth, does not age, does not die, does not fall away, does not reappear." And there being another, higher escape, he says, "There is no other, higher escape."'

What The Buddha is doing, in this sutta, is rejecting and challenging the characteristics of god, Brahma. You believe that god is all powerful and never changing. The Buddha taught the opposite. You believe that everything comes from god an you depend on god. The Buddha taught to depend on self. I'm sorry, all the suttas point to the mind and away from imaginary and invisible beings. You can read more In The Buddha's Own Words.

Yes the sun and the moon are different bodies but reflect the same light of the one sun.

The moon is separate than the sun. Without the sun, the moon would still exist. The rays aren't separate from the sun. The sun are the rays.

Just because the moon affects the ocean doesn't mean the moon is the ocean.

We believe in unity in diversity and the freedom of each person to choose his/her own religion.

No. If that is the case, you'd respect teach person's religion/body as his or her own puzzle without making it into one puzzle or one-truth.

I know this because you said if there were more than one truth, they would contradict each other. Look at it from another person's perspective.

We have a Founder of our religion and respect the Founders of the others. As you have a Founder so have we. We just happen to accept all the Founders and their Holy Books.

I don't have a founder.

Your religion is disrespect other religions but that is my opinion.

The fact is what you say about other religions is not what their religions teach.

Me: Again, you are making thousands of pieces in the world into one puzzle when each respect religion has their own puzzle. Even if their pieces are disjointed to you, their pieces belong to their puzzle not yours.

Everyone will have to find that out for themselves.

1. Each culture has their own puzzle (religion/truth)
2. All religions (puzzles) are disjointed somehow
3. All other religions do not find the need to incorporate other religions to put together their own puzzle.

You are literally taking peaces of everyone's puzzle and making it into one.

That will not work because like you said each belief contradicts each other.

You have yet to tell me point blank

Are these religions lying about their own belief?

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Yes. As you can see I'm terrible with words. Why would I say for you to ask questions. How stupid of me.

I meant Id like to understand you better.

Cultural appropriation is a sore point with you. I understand exploitation is wrong but why do you keep saying we're doing it?

Is it just general mistrust or us specifically?

No, not of you guys. I focus on you because you always quote from Bahaullah or someone similar. So, I address the belief based on what you quote and say "we believe this or that."

With @adrian009 it took me awhile to realize he is christian. That gave me a different perspective on things. I don't agree that christian and bahai mix; and, he said he is christian, soo....

I focus on you because you have identified Bahai with these different faiths that, by their facts, do not support your belief.

If beliefs are more important than facts, then I'd let it go; but, you said that you wouldn't believe (or however you put it) without it being a fact. Adrian and I were talking about the difference between belief and fact and it odd Adrian doesnt consider his belief as fact. But that's Adrian.

With you, loverofhumanity, it's harder to get deeper in what you're saying because your'e contradicting yourself "we want diversity" oh, "we believe in one truth." and "we respect religions" but "bahaullah came to change and fix religions to a greater peace than we have no."

Unless what you believe is not Bahai belief, I honestly don't know how to address the contradictions.

I explained how Bahai culturally appropriates. I don't know if you understand it because you give one word answers sometimes without expanding. Like when I said "truth isn't in one-box" and all you said was, yes, of course (or something). Nothing to back it up.

It's a cut off sentence not a response.

1. A Hindu tells you his belief is X. You say your belief is Y. That's ifne.

2. A Hindu tells you his belief is X. You say your belief incorporates X in order for Y to be true.

That is a problem.

Either the Hindu is lying or he doesn't know his own belief system.

You haven't answered either. Maybe out of respect? I don't know but you're not being disrespectful for saying they are lying about their own belief. You will get negative feedback but at least we'd understand our boundaries. Until then, it's like trying to pull "We have the truth" like food in your teeth. If you didn't, why one-truth and not many.

That's my point.

 

[loverofhumanity]

Oversimplification entirely, but that's how universalist sects operate. If you go out and read several texts from different religions, you will find wildly differing interpretations of inner 'truth's. If you speak to adherents of different faiths, they will tell you something different too, just as I am here.

Which is it? Reincarnation, or heaven/hell? Which is it, oneness, or not oneness.

These simplistic platitudes don't work for me. If you want to believe that, fine.

Yes. I agree. The age of confusion.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

I think you said posts back your beliefs are based on facts or you wouldn't believe in them. I talk to Adrian to, so I get you two mixed up sometimes since ya'll have different views even though your both are Bahai.

1. I can see the outward differences but no difference spiritually.

2. Their are no 'spiritual' contradictions between any of the religions whatsoever.

3. The ceremonies, rituals, outward appearances, social laws etc can contradict.

4. But the inner meditative state, the mystical element and the spiritual virtues are all the same.

1. Outward differences TLC and inward spirituality are embedded in each other.

2. Yes, there are. Since each religion is defined by their TLC and visa versa, and they contradict, their Tender, Love, and Care contradicts to. They have different foundations.

3. They can't be separated from inward sources.

4. No. Buddhist don't believe in the same love as christians do.

Perfect example

a. Refrain from Killing

b. Crucifixion of Jesus and Sacrifice 1 and Sacrifice 2

The former believes love comes from not killing.

The latter believes killing brings love.

Lover, I'm talking about facts, though, not differing beliefs. (Sorry, I know this wasn't addressed to me)

 

[Vinayaka]

Yes. I agree. The age of confusion.

Not for me. I'm not confused at all. It's fine with me to have 157 different breeds of dog. But yes, for many they are confused because they actually don't know what they believe. It would be like being married to 10 wives, and they all cook you a meal. Hmmm... who should I please, and who should I disappoint.

I just have one wife. It's far easier. lol

 

[loverofhumanity]

I think you said posts back your beliefs are based on facts or you wouldn't believe in them. I talk to Adrian to, so I get you two mixed up sometimes since ya'll have different views even though your both are Bahai.

1. Outward differences TLC and inward spirituality are embedded in each other.

We can find unity on the spiritual level. Outwardly we accept the differences as diversity and respect them.

2. Yes, there are. Since each religion is defined by their TLC and visa versa, and they contradict, their Tender, Love, and Care contradicts to. They have different foundations.

Love may be expressed differently in different cultures but every culture knows love. My Burmese family in Burma and my Australian family here both know love but express it differently.

3. They can't be separated from inward sources.

Love is expressed differently but it's still love all across the world.

4. No. Buddhist don't believe in the same love as christians do.

Perfect example

a. Refrain from Killing

b. Crucifixion of Jesus and Sacrifice 1 and Sacrifice 2

The former believes love comes from not killing.

The latter believes killing brings love.

Jesus fulfilled all the conditions of Buddhist love from not killing. He didn't kill anyone and taught thou shalt not kill.

Lover, I'm talking about facts, though, not differing beliefs. (Sorry, I know this wasn't addressed to me)

 

[loverofhumanity]

I asked you to make up your mind about what you believe, that's all, because you play the political game of just agreeing with whatever is there in the moment. At one point you said the truth is 'oneness', and then later you said it isn't. So ... which is it?

There is no political game being played at all. We Baha'is accept all truth. It doesn't matter which religion or which science, we accept truth.

You say it's impossible to accept all religions but it is very easy. Truth does not contradict itself. Contradictions therefore are not truth. One truth cannot contradict another truth.

I've always believed oneness is truth.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Let me ask.

1. Do you understand that traditions, cultures, and language are embedded in spirituality?
If you do, please expand why and if you have questions, please ask.

2. Inward/Outward are one in the same. Can you understand that? If so, same as above? If not, same as above.

3. Let's make this personal. I know love. You know love. If it's the same, what is my love compared to yours?

4. On that note, love and expression of it goes hand in hand. That's like separating a person's "I do" from the marriage they have with each other. You're separating things. That's division.

Do you understand that? If not, please ask. If you do, please expand.

5. Jesus father gave jesus a mission to live so others will know his teachings, be crucified (killed), and resurrected. In the OT, sacrifice for sins were killing animals rather than a human. That's the heart of the christian faith.

"Thou shall not kill" is a contradiction of christianity but that's not the foundation of it. It's human sacrifice for sin absolving so one can be back with the father through christ and his resurrection.