How are these Great Beings explained?

[Vinayaka]

There is no political game being played at all. We Baha'is accept all truth. It doesn't matter which religion or which science, we accept truth.

You say it's impossible to accept all religions but it is very easy. Truth does not contradict itself. Contradictions therefore are not truth. One truth cannot contradict another truth.

I've always believed oneness is truth.

At the risk of sounding redundant, 'Truth' varies. Maybe it would help me understand you a bit more if you actually defined 'truth', but I doubt it.

Reincarnation is more than just truth to me, because I actually remember a past life, and brougt souls into this life. But to you its nothing. If I tried I could list 100 differing 'truth' s between Bahai and Hinduism. But oh no, it's all same all same. lol

 

[loverofhumanity]

At the risk of sounding redundant, 'Truth' varies. Maybe it would help me understand you a bit more if you actually defined 'truth', but I doubt it.

Reincarnation is more than just truth to me, because I actually remember a past life, and brougt souls into this life. But to you its nothing. If I tried I could list 100 differing 'truth' s between Bahai and Hinduism. But oh no, it's all same all same. lol

Truth for us is relative not absolute because we are ever learning more truth. So we evolve to greater states of cinsciousness and awareness of truth.

There is scientific truth and religious truth and no matter how much we learn we never know everything and can keep learning unless we decide we know everything then we cease to learn.

As to reincarnation I haven't experienced what you have so I can't comment on reincarnation.

 

[loverofhumanity]

Let me ask.

1. Do you understand that traditions, cultures, and language are embedded in spirituality?
If you do, please expand why and if you have questions, please ask.

I understand people's spirituality determines their culture and traditions. People with pure spirits and hearts will have good cultures. People with impure hearts will have bad cultures such as Isis or the terrorist groups.

2. Inward/Outward are one in the same. Can you understand that? If so, same as above? If not, same as above.

Not necessarily. A person inwardly may harbor evil but outwardly show friendship. Hypocrisy is a state where inward and outward are in conflict. A persons deeds may differ from their words. It can apply to a culture also.

3. Let's make this personal. I know love. You know love. If it's the same, what is my love compared to yours?

You express yours differently according to your environment and surroundings.

4. On that note, love and expression of it goes hand in hand. That's like separating a person's "I do" from the marriage they have with each other. You're separating things. That's division.

Do you understand that? If not, please ask. If you do, please expand.

Everyone expresses love in one way or another.

5. Jesus father gave jesus a mission to live so others will know his teachings, be crucified (killed), and resurrected. In the OT, sacrifice for sins were killing animals rather than a human. That's the heart of the christian faith.

"Thou shall not kill" is a contradiction of christianity but that's not the foundation of it. It's human sacrifice for sin absolving so one can be back with the father through christ and his resurrection.

Christ, according to what He said 'love as I have loved you' meant to love unconditionally and selflessly.

The foundation Christ taught was love.[/QUOTE]

 

[Unveiled Artist]

I understand people's spirituality determines their culture and traditions. People with pure spirits and hearts will have good cultures. People with impure hearts will have bad cultures such as Isis or the terrorist groups.

You accidentally quoted me wrong again.

1. This, I was wondering, "Not necessarily. A person inwardly may harbor evil but outwardly show friendship. Hypocrisy is a state where inward and outward are in conflict. A persons deeds may differ from their words. It can apply to a culture also."

I usually see positive things that spirituality and TLC are. They are embedded in each other. Spirituality is shaped by TLC. TLC shapes spirituality. They cannot be separated. They are not both, they are one foundation for each individual religion.

2. Environmental and cultural My expression in my case doesn't have to do with culture and surroundings. If that's the case, I'd be Catholic. I rather not be Catholic. So, that's not true of all people.

Sense we are talking about "essence" or greater truth, and you said they are the same in all religions, how do you define my truth since it's the same as yours?​

Since there is no multiple truths.

 

[Vinayaka]

T

One truth cannot contradict another truth.

But then in an earlier post (#1390)you said, "Yes they all definitely teach different truths."

Do you see why I'm having difficulty with your answers. Different truths are also contradictory truths.

So you're giving me contradictory messages. Now that you've avoided answering 'Is it oneness. or nor oneness?" how about this? Are truths contradictory or not? Simple as that.

 

[Vinayaka]

As to reincarnation I haven't experienced what you have so I can't comment on reincarnation.

Good to know. This is a step up from claiming you know a lot about Hinduism, shows some humility. So if you don't know much about Hindu stuff like reincarnation, why do you feel that you do know that Hinduism has the same truth as Bahai?

 

[loverofhumanity]

No, not of you guys. I focus on you because you always quote from Bahaullah or someone similar. So, I address the belief based on what you quote and say "we believe this or that."

Thank you Carlita.

[QUOTEI focus on you because you have identified Bahai with these different faiths that, by their facts, do not support your belief. If beliefs are more important than facts, then I'd let it go; but, you said that you wouldn't believe (or however you put it) without it being a fact. [/QUOTE]

Yes, that is correct. The Words of Baha'u'llah have endowed me with Certitude which is a gift to be able to distinguish truth from falsehood.

With you, loverofhumanity, it's harder to get deeper in what you're saying because your'e contradicting yourself "we want diversity" oh, "we believe in one truth." and "we respect religions" but "bahaullah came to change and fix religions to a greater peace than we have no."

Every point correct. Baha'u'llah came to usher in a golden age of peace, prosperity and happiness for humanity.

Unless what you believe is not Bahai belief, I honestly don't know how to address the contradictions.

The contradictions that you see have been resolved for me.

I explained how Bahai culturally appropriates. I don't know if you understand it because you give one word answers sometimes without expanding. Like when I said "truth isn't in one-box" and all you said was, yes, of course (or something). Nothing to back it up.

Yes I fully agree truth isn't in a box. It is everywhere. In science, religions, within ourselves. I accept all truth but there is so much more to learn. As to cultural appropriation we promote through the UN things like the rights of indigenous people.

Rights of Indigenous Populations

It's a cut off sentence not a response.

1. A Hindu tells you his belief is X. You say your belief is Y. That's ifne.

2. A Hindu tells you his belief is X. You say your belief incorporates X in order for Y to be true.

That is a problem.

Either the Hindu is lying or he doesn't know his own belief system.

Nobody is lying. We all travel on a journey and understand truth at different levels. We each walk our own path. Maybe our paths will meet one day.

You haven't answered either. Maybe out of respect? I don't know but you're not being disrespectful for saying they are lying about their own belief. You will get negative feedback but at least we'd understand our boundaries. Until then, it's like trying to pull "We have the truth" like food in your teeth. If you didn't, why one-truth and not many.

That's my point.

How can I call a liar people who I share many common beliefs? Non violence and peace is our purpose so like minded people who seek peace through none violence we see as colleagues.

It's not for us to judge and condemn others. We have our understanding that Baha'u'llah was the Promised One but we make it clear that we fully accept that others disagree and we're fine with that.

The gift of Certitude is given to humanity in this age of confusion by Baha'u'llah. It frees one from doubts and gives true knowledge. It distinguishes truth from falsehood.

 

[loverofhumanity]

But then in an earlier post (#1390)you said, "Yes they all definitely teach different truths."

Do you see why I'm having difficulty with your answers. Different truths are also contradictory truths.

So you're giving me contradictory messages. Now that you've avoided answering 'Is it oneness. or nor oneness?" how about this? Are truths contradictory or not? Simple as that.

Truths cannot be contradictory. How can truth contradict itself?

If you look at the individual trees you will not see the wider forest. It's like that with truth. We can look at the different truths the different religions taught and then we can look at the bigger picture which is that throughout history humanity has received Educators to progressively advance society.

Most cannot see the big picture.

 

[Vinayaka]

Truths cannot be contradictory. How can truth contradict itself?

Simple. One of them is not a truth. Here's an example. You tell me which one is true.

You need Christ for salvation.
You don't need Christ for salvation.

Let me know when you've decided.

 

[loverofhumanity]

Good to know. This is a step up from claiming you know a lot about Hinduism, shows some humility. So if you don't know much about Hindu stuff like reincarnation, why do you feel that you do know that Hinduism has the same truth as Bahai?

Hinduism teaches things like non violence, to do good deeds, to control our desires, truthfulness, not to injure others, to be kind and hospitable. These are all things that we share in common with Hindus.

 

[loverofhumanity]

Simple. One of them is not a truth. Here's an example. You tell me which one is true.

You need Christ for salvation.
You don't need Christ for salvation.

Let me know when you've decided.

Yes we need Christ but must obey His teachings not just believe.

 

[Vinayaka]

Hinduism teaches things like non violence, to do good deeds, to control our desires, truthfulness, not to injure others, to be kind and hospitable. These are all things that we share in common with Hindus.

I never said there weren't things we don't share. Obviously we do. Bahai and non-violence has yet to be proved. Don't forget Islam, at one time claimed to be non-violent. Some Muslims still claim, that, despite overwhelming evidence to the contrary. If Bahai ever became the dominant religion of a country with more than 5 million, they might use that majority to quell any non-Bahai. We don't know yet, and I can't see it happening any time soon. So we have to assume the best.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Hmm

Yes, that is correct. The Words of Baha'u'llah have endowed me with Certitude which is a gift to be able to distinguish truth from falsehood.

What is falsehood if the greater peace or essence in all religions are one truth?

Every point correct. Baha'u'llah came to usher in a golden age of peace, prosperity and happiness for humanity.

You're avoiding the comment. Maybe not on purpose.

Contradictions

1. We believe in diversity and we believe in on truth @Vinayaka pointed out you said we have multiple truths and then revert to saying we have one.

Diversity means more than one truth. One-truth is not diversity. That's like saying someone is monotheistic and polytheist at the same time.​

2. We respect religions and Bahaullah came to fix religions to make them all religions into one.

How is that respecting diversity if you are changing all religions into one?​

The contradictions that you see have been resolved for me.

I know you don't see the contradictions. However, like I said, view it from another person's perspective.

Can't stress this point enough.

Yes I fully agree truth isn't in a box. It is everywhere. In science, religions, within ourselves. I accept all truth but there is so much more to learn. As to cultural appropriation we promote through the UN things like the rights of indigenous people.

Wait? All truth? What do you define as truth to make it "all" (all meaning more than one truth)

1. Is it all truths into one?
2. Only one truth for all people?
3. Many truths in one humanity?
4. All have their own truths?

Nobody is lying. We all travel on a journey and understand truth at different levels. We each walk our own path. Maybe our paths will meet one day.

1. Now it's truth at different levels?

2. People don't have their own truth one truth separated in different levels?

3. Isn't that still taking another person's truth and making it your own?
Only ask that since Vinayaka disagrees with you on his truth and yours. So...

4. How do you define the levels of people's truth?

When you have separate paths that do not join and each look as beautiful as the next we need to feel comfortable that we walk our own paths regardless if we are walking at the same path parallel, if you like.​

How can I call a liar people who I share many common beliefs? Non violence and peace is our purpose so like minded people who seek peace through none violence we see as colleagues.

They don't share your beliefs. You share theirs. It has to work both ways.​

You're not listening. Same goals do not equal same beliefs. I said that before with the example of Hinduism. You are not Hindu just because you have the same goals.

You need the

1. beliefs
2. traditions
3. culture
4. language

Of that of a Hindu and practice Hinduism and identify as a Hindu (either verbally or not)

to be Hindu

It's not for us to judge and condemn others. We have our understanding that Baha'u'llah was the Promised One but we make it clear that we fully accept that others disagree and we're fine with that.

I'm not (for example) judging you by saying you are wrong. I am saying, point blank, you are wrong about how you interpret other people's religions.

It's being honest and owning your own belief rather than trying to make everyone a part of yours. We are not Bahai just because half of us share your goals.

The gift of Certitude is given to humanity in this age of confusion by Baha'u'llah. It frees one from doubts and gives true knowledge. It distinguishes truth from falsehood.

There's no confusion or falsehood. Learn about people individually rather than generalizing them.

My question, again.

If we all have one truth and different expressions, what is my truth since it's the same as yours?

 

[Vinayaka]

Yes we need Christ but must obey His teachings not just believe.

I don't believe that ... at all. Neither does well over half the planet. Am I going to a hell I don't believe in too?

Actually I don't believe in 'truth' as a concept at all, not like book religions do anyway.

 

[Vinayaka]

If we all have one truth and different expressions, what is my truth since it's the same as yours?

I can tell you its not the same as mine, but I think we're both good on that. So the truth is we have differing truths.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

I can tell you its not the same as mine, but I think we're both good on that. So the truth is we have differing truths.

Haha. So true.

 

[Vinayaka]

Haha. So true.

See, its so easy to get along. We just have to have respect for another's right to a belief. Too bad Bahai (well, some of them anyway) can't see how easy it is. I truly love humanity.

 

[Vinayaka]

If we all have one truth and different expressions, what is my truth since it's the same as yours?

Now that is a really good question. Eleven points out of ten.

... If you claim to know where I live, then please tell me where I live. lol

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Now that is a really good question. Eleven points out of ten.

... If you claim to know where I live, then please tell me where I live. lol

Hey, I haad to ask. lol

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Hmm. Guess another good example, since the human body was used, is attraction and the human body. The color of skin, hair, height, etc is the "outside of the person" and what we usually consider inside-spiritual, emotions, and so forth are technically the psychological part of a person.

So you have the psychological part-the spirituality which incompasses all of us that defines who we are as people.

and

you have the outside of us as above that also describes who we are as people.

If you took out the outer pieces, then nothing would exist. If you just the spirituality/psychology that wouldn't exist because there is no physical body to "hold" it and in turn define it as spirituality defines the body.

Both out/inside of a person, if you want to dichotomize it, is who a person is. I wouldn't go up to my girlfriend and say "hey, I love your spirit. Your sense of humor. Your personality" oh, by the way, "you're ugly."

That's not liking the person for who they you. You literally torn the person in two as if one aspect of that person is more important than the other. Therefore, you insulted that person because of it.

The same as religion

The outside: Traditions, Culture, and Language

and the inside, which are characteristics to each individual religion

go together.

If you separate it and say for example, "oh Catholics are just doing rituals" without looking at the spiritual, you just insulted the Catholic.

@loverofhumanity if I took the spiritual from you and disregard Bahaullah's writings, then I just insulted you. (Whether you were insulted or not isn't the issue. It's my morals not to insult people regardless of how they perceive it).

So, as a result, we keep the outside and inside of a religion and person.

Loverofhumanity, since you split the two and say that our truths are the same what is my truth if it's the same as yours?