How are these Great Beings explained?

[Vinayaka]

What if you were to meet a great guru, wouldn't that affect you at all or wouldn't his words of wisdom affect you?

Yes I've met two. Ours is a living tradition, not focused on deceased people's words. Re-read the quote of Sri Ramakrishna I gave you. But the Guru's words are "Don't lean on me. You have to do it yourself, by yourself. "

Do you think Baha'u'llah can give you the truth?

 

[Vinayaka]

I don't want to burden you but only Baha'u'llah can describe it adequately.

I know these words don't interest you so I wouldn't want to make you read something you really don't want to.

It's okay. I would just disagree with it anyway, as you know.

 

[loverofhumanity]

Again ... please describe my truth, in a few words. Vagueness isn't helpful at all. That's like saying I live on this planet called Earth and I eat food.

So here's another example.

A traveller from UK recently ended up in Sydney. Although he wanted to be in Sydney, Australia, he found himself in Sydney, Nova Scotia, Canada. (true story) So are you goiung to claim that its the same Sydney?

So, the word 'truth' has no meaning whatsoever without an explanation.

I can't really do it justice but it's basically the underlying mystical experience that all religionists experience. That deep mystical feeling. All religions know of it. Either through prayer or meditation or service to humanity, that deep mystical feeling is the truth behind all religions. It cannot be explained adequately as it is rightfully a mystery. Everyone knows it's mystical but it's a mystery also.

That 'mystical feeling' is what is behind people's motives to love each other and serve humanity and care for the poor etc. it all stems from this mystical feeling which cannot really be explained but is common to all religions.

The Jew, the Hindu, th Buddhist, Muslim, Zoroastrian, Christian and Bahá'í all share this 'mystical feeling' in common and express it through varying acts of worship and service.

That inner mystical feeling that prompts a Christian to help the poor is the same inner mystical feeling that makes another religionist do the same.

When I say all religions have truth I mean that 'mystical inward feeling'. I hope I'm explaining myself a bit better.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

We were speaking about truth and love not belief.

I never said belief. I said truth because you said truth.

That makes sense. Okay. Truth is relative and it involves love. Since that is truth for you, it would be truth for me, correct? That is if we have the same truth as you say all religions have even if they don't realize it.​

You said Yes. I asked...

How so? Explain.

 

[Vinayaka]

I can't really do it justice but it's basically the underlying mystical experience that all religionists experience. That deep mystical feeling. All religions know of it. Either through prayer or meditation or service to humanity, that deep mystical feeling is the truth behind all religions. It cannot be explained adequately as it is rightfully a mystery. Everyone knows it's mystical but it's a mystery also.

That 'mystical feeling' is what is behind people's motives to love each other and serve humanity and care for the poor etc. it all stems from this mystical feeling which cannot really be explained but is common to all religions.

The Jew, the Hindu, th Buddhist, Muslim, Zoroastrian, Christian and Bahá'í all share this 'mystical feeling' in common and express it through varying acts of worship and service.

That inner mystical feeling that prompts a Christian to help the poor is the same inner mystical feeling that makes another religionist do the same.

When I say all religions have truth I mean that 'mystical inward feeling'. I hope I'm explaining myself a bit better.

Please give me a link to 'City of Certitude'.

Lots of people have 'mystical inward feelings' all the time. But just as 'outward emotional feelings' are vague, so is this. Doesn't mean they are the same at all. In fact, from descriptions I've read, they are all quite different.

 

[loverofhumanity]

Yes I've met two. Ours is a living tradition, not focused on deceased people's words. Re-read the quote of Sri Ramakrishna I gave you. But the Guru's words are "Don't lean on me. You have to do it yourself, by yourself. "

Do you think Baha'u'llah can give you the truth?

He points the pathway to it. We then have to walk that path.

 

[loverofhumanity]

I never said belief. I said truth because you said truth.

That makes sense. Okay. Truth is relative and it involves love. Since that is truth for you, it would be truth for me, correct? That is if we have the same truth as you say all religions have even if they don't realize it.​

You said Yes. I asked...

How so? Explain.

Well, all religionists have that 'deep mystical feeling' which motivates them. It is mystical. It makes them want to help the poor and love each other and so on. Different religions get that 'mystical feeling' ipin different ways. Some meditate, some pray, others serve the community.

Each and every religion has a 'mystical feeling' that motives it. It's not a political or economical motivation but a motive born of a 'mystical experience'.

There are Temples, churches, synagogues and pagodas to enable people to capture that 'mystical experience' so important is it to every religion.

One is trying to reach enlightenment, another trying to be saved, another meditating for self realisation but it is all mystical and a mystery at the same time.

And it is this mystical truth that all religions share in common.

 

[Vinayaka]

He points the pathway to it. We then have to walk that path.

And he is the only one who can point to it? Where does this path lead? What is the end result of this path? Who is the 'we' refer to in your question? Are there other paths or only the one?

 

[Vinayaka]

One is trying to reach enlightenment, another trying to be saved, another meditating for self realisation but it is all mystical and a mystery at the same time.

Trying to be saved from what? From death? What are you afraid of?

 

[Vinayaka]

And it is this mystical truth that all religions share in common.

So again ... Just what is this truth you speak of|? If my truth is the same as yours, describe it, in some way. Give me a hint.

Have you experienced this truth for yourself?

 

[loverofhumanity]

And he is the only one who can point to it? Where does this path lead? What is the end result of this path? Who is the 'we' refer to in your question? Are there other paths or only the one?

All the Manifestations have always pointed to it. It is the road to truth and fulfilment.

Because you asked about Baha'u'llah my answer 'we' referred to us Baha'is as it is only us who are expected to walk on the path as we have chosen it.

What is the end result of this path?

To a Hindu I think it would mean no more 'comings and goings' so I think I could say something like 'having reached 'Certitude' as a Baha'i would be the same as the station of no more comings and goings for a Hindu.

 

[loverofhumanity]

So again ... Just what is this truth you speak of|? If my truth is the same as yours, describe it, in some way. Give me a hint.

Have you experienced this truth for yourself?

When you mediate and feel something how do you explain it? You mediate and get mystical feelings don't you? Then you know but explaining it is nigh impossible because it's a mystery.

I told you Baha'u'llah describes it but it's boring for you so I can't really say anything more.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Okay. I know you didn't answer to me but to avoid repeating yourself, I finally got the answer to my questions.

I can't really do it justice but it's basically the underlying mystical experience that all religionists experience. That deep mystical feeling. All religions know of it. Either through prayer or meditation or service to humanity, that deep mystical feeling is the truth behind all religions. It cannot be explained adequately as it is rightfully a mystery. Everyone knows it's mystical but it's a mystery also.

If you say we all have a mystical feeling, it has to be described somehow because each person receives information and experiences differently. If one way of explaining something doesn't work, find another avenue. If you claim all religions, of course it will be hard.

I don't have a mystical feeling. I don't that feeling (if you call it god or what/whoever). There is no different name. I'm not "sleep" waiting to be awakened to the truth. If this mystical feeling is the truth, how can you account for individuals like myself who do not have this truth?

Truth should be inherent to all people regardless if they find it important for it to be a religion or just a connection during meditation. I've meditated, prayed, and all the nine yards and what I experience is no where close to a mystical feeling. If anything, it's not even in the ballpark of being supernatural. I don't believe in the supernatural. I don't believe in god. God isn't part of my truth.

Am I lying about my truth if the truth is actually a mystical feeling and I tell you some of us do not have it?

I have a spirituality/religion. I'm not numb to experiences of connection but how do you differentiate that from the adrenaline you get from infatuation of someone you love?

What's the difference between a mystical experience and the feeling (which is something our body feels not an outside source) we are connected to X that if it were the truth, others should be connected but they are not?

What does mystical mean?​

That 'mystical feeling' is what is behind people's motives to love each other and serve humanity and care for the poor etc. it all stems from this mystical feeling which cannot really be explained but is common to all religions.

Mystical has nothing to do with it. It's just a word, unless given a definition, that overgeneralize the motivation people have to want to help others whether by what they are told to do by their god or whether they do so because they want to without any external stimulation to do so.

Saying people have mystical feelings is ignoring the fact the body creates these feelings we cannot describe nothing or no one else. That's like if someone yelled at you and you cried, you blame the other person for your emotions when your emotions are only triggered by the other person but your body reacts to stimuli by crying while others anger-so it's not the person, it's you.

The Jew, the Hindu, th Buddhist, Muslim, Zoroastrian, Christian and Bahá'í all share this 'mystical feeling' in common and express it through varying acts of worship and service.

You said all religions above. Now you picked a selective few.

Holy spirit a mystical feeling? Christ is not a feeling, he's a person. A spirit of a person is not a feeling, he is a spirit of a person. He is an external stimuli (as above with the yelling) and what we feel is what we call X or Y but that definition is from us. It's not outside. It's a mystery only because some of us can't describe the stimuli.

That doesn't mean it is the same stimuli all because we cannot define it.

That inner mystical feeling that prompts a Christian to help the poor is the same inner mystical feeling that makes another religionist do the same.

I open the door because of gratitude not a mystical feeling. It's simple appreciation (not mystical but psychological) of helping others and helping myself. Catholics call the Eucharist a mystery but it actually it's. It's pretty common sense when one reads the Bible and participates in Mass. Yet, many religions put this feeling of "wholeness" high which does not make sense to me.

Not all religions, some. A lot of Pagans do not do this. You said all religions. So Pagans are included.

When I say all religions have truth I mean that 'mystical inward feeling'. I hope I'm explaining myself a bit better.

Kinda. You just have to realize that not all religious have that feeling. Nothing wrong with that. It's not that they haven't "awakened" to it. Zen is a perfectly well practiced religion but it goes opposite of that mystical feeling. Same as other forms of Buddhism that focus on training of the mind not a special unknown feeling people call god, consciousness, or universe.

Step into other people's shoes. Not everyone has a mystical feeling.

Those that do, do not have the same mystical feeling as you do. Everyone has different mystical feelings (to those who say they have them). No common foundation. Hence why the mystery and why TLC shapes the mystery because it cannot be explained without TLC.

 

[loverofhumanity]

Trying to be saved from what? From death? What are you afraid of?

I was just giving examples of the different Faiths and their mystical experiences. A Buddhist may seek enlightenment, a Christian prays that his souls is saved from evil or such, and so on,

It was just an example of the different religions turning towards an inner mystical prompting.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

When you mediate and feel something how do you explain it? You mediate and get mystical feelings don't you? Then you know but explaining it is nigh impossible because it's a mystery.

I told you Baha'u'llah describes it but it's boring for you so I can't really say anything more.

Zen meditate but when I practiced it talked against any special feeling. That's how one sees life as it is when one is not attach to "something special." Not attached to form. Not labeling it. No it. Nothing.

Hard to understand or even believe but it exists. It's not a universal truth. It's a belief that a lot of people have but universal truth means it's a fact or truth for all people. It is not.

 

[Vinayaka]

Because you asked about Baha'u'llah my answer 'we' referred to us Baha'is as it is only us who are expected to walk on the path as we have chosen it.

To a Hindu I think it would mean no more 'comings and goings' so I think I could say something like 'having reached 'Certitude' as a Baha'i would be the same as the station of no more comings and goings for a Hindu.

When I (and many Hindus) use personal pronouns it means the soul. We actually believe we are a soul with a physical body. We are Hindu in this birth, but a soul has no religion. Other western faiths like yours use personal pronouns to give the individual 'I' ego of this lifetime. So the thinking is totally different.

Hindus celebrate death and mourn birth. Death means 'moving on; like the winning of a game, whereas in the western paradigm, its a loss, like the losing of some game. For Hindus, birth means another round of karma, not necessarily a reason to rejoice.

Bahai see the world as a place that needs fixing. Hindus view the world as a perfect place ... in a state of evolution yes.

In Hinduism, moksha is total absorption with God, like water into water, not just release from the cycle.

Prerequisites include brahmacarya, in Hinduism, so only a monk could attain this ultimate realisation. But we would all come back some day as monks, as I explained before. By definition, I think that excludes your prophet, as it excludes Muhammed.

So again ... we are operating in very different paradigms.

 

[Vinayaka]

I was just giving examples of the different Faiths and their mystical experiences. A Buddhist may seek enlightenment, a Christian prays that his souls is saved from evil or such, and so on,

It was just an example of the different religions turning towards an inner mystical prompting.

In Christianity, only belief in Christ can 'save' you. I don't believe that. So are you like a Christian or like me?

 

[Vinayaka]

When you mediate and feel something how do you explain it? You mediate and get mystical feelings don't you? Then you know but explaining it is nigh impossible because it's a mystery.

I told you Baha'u'llah describes it but it's boring for you so I can't really say anything more.

It's a feeling of calmness, occasional insights. Better meditators than me see light within their head, see chakras, can read minds, have clairaudience naturally, stuff like that.

You have clairaudience?

 

[Vinayaka]

To a Hindu I think it would mean no more 'comings and goings' so I think I could say something like 'having reached 'Certitude' as a Baha'i would be the same as the station of no more comings and goings for a Hindu.

How could that possibly be, since you don't believe in reincarnation? Have you changed your mind on that? Wouldn't that be apostasy?

 

[siti]

First about Muhammad. The historical context, There was a war of genocide against the Muslims. He had every right to defend His people against the murderous Quraysh who for no justified reason sought the extinction and extermination of all Muslims.

Sura 2:190

Attack only if attacked. Do not attack first. God does not support aggression.

Krishna we believe existed just like Adam but we believe some stories in the Bible were allegorical not real occurrences and put there for our education. The story of Adam and Eve is not factual but teaches about disobedience to God and so on. The story of the Bhagavad-Gita was meant for the soul if you read it. It is about fighting desire and turning to God.

With Moses it must be remembered that the plagues were often used as a last resort to bring about a change in conditions or justice. In those days there were no police or courts or judges so crimes committed had to be punished with a view to being a deterrent as well.

It took plagues to free the Hebrews from slavery.

In our day, it might take a Third World War to drive us to establish peace. It's man's obstinacy and refusal to walk the right path that ends up in us having us to be shown we are wrong through suffering. A last resort but sometimes the only way we will learn.

If there were a third war, God would not stop it and allow us to suffer so we will begin to value peace. Otherwise millions will continue to starve while the rich get richer and wars will continue and nothing will improve.

Oh dear! The Muhammad thing is just rubbish - you need to read up on the history. The Battle of Badr was not self-defense at all. The whole situation arose after 13 years of personal attacks by Muslims on the polytheist Arabs in Mecca which brought the Muslim trouble causers into conflict with their own tribesmen and forced them to move out to Medina. From there, the Prophet and his men launched raids on caravans going to Mecca and on one such occasion, fearing another unprovoked attack on a caravan bringing goods and money from Syria to Mecca, the Meccans sent out a small force to protect their property. The Muslims confronted them and won a famous victory - followed, according to al-Bukhari, by Muhammad taunting the corpses on the battlefield. The Surah you quoted from was 'revealed' to Muhammad on the eve of the Battle of Badr - so the 'self-defense' thing was not what you (and modern Islam) often pretend it to be - it was an instruction to fight if they (Muslims) were impeded in their attempts to hijack the caravans of their tribesmen on the road to Mecca and plunder their property. Not all the Muslims agreed to take part in this unjustified violence and they were duly chastised - in the other verses I quoted previously.

If Adam was really the first man and Moses chronology is correct, the Krishna must have existed before the creation of mankind - which is fine for a God - doesn't work quite so well for a Manifestation whose purpose is to guide mankind.

The plagues are nothing to with the military conquest of Canaan or the God-sanctioned genocide of the Midianites - I have no idea why you are bringing up the plagues.

To be perfectly honest, you seem to be very confused about the lives and the teachings of all three - Krishna, Moses and Muhammad.