How are these Great Beings explained?

[Vinayaka]

Christians definitely have idols, and pray to them, or in front of them.

But afaik Bahais only have framed symbols, badges or symbols in their jewellery.

Yes, I've read the same about Baha'i ... against idol worship, but them they come from Islam, so that's expected. But they don't understand the purpose either.

 

[Vinayaka]

Thanx for the info.


According to that Definition (jolly old google) the group needs a God, Gods, or supernatural being NOT to be a cult, which is why I asked about Brahman.

Oh alright, you can be a religion!

Just for clarification, OB, many people (I'm one of them) do refer to Brahman as God. Perhaps it came form poor translating by Abrahamics investigating Hinduism, but the fact is we're stuck with it. Very different concept from the Abrahamic God though. So on one hand I've argued that Aup is a theist, (with regard to Brahman) and at the same time I can safely declare myself an atheist to the Abrahamic god.

So it boils down to whether or not you call Brahman God.

 

[loverofhumanity]

Yes..... we certainly are in need of the final Elijah.......
and yes.... all of the great teachers pre-existed before their conception as humans.



Pre-Existence and the Near-Death Experience

Pre-Existence and the Near-Death Experience



We also need the raising up of King David..... and
the taking of humanity up to the place where the feeble Jew is comparable to King David.....
which I assume corresponds to the time period when the least Christian will
have attained a level of faith, love, wisdom and understanding that will be even greater than
that of John the Baptist.

Zechariah 12:8

"In that day shall the LORD defend the inhabitants of Jerusalem; and he that is feeble among them at that day shall be as David; and the house of David shall be as God, as the angel of the LORD before them."


Matthew 11:11

"Verily I say unto you, Among them that are born of women there hath not risen a greater than John the Baptist: notwithstanding he that is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he."

Isaiah chapters 42 - 46 writes about Jacob / Yacob in one verse and Cyrus in the next verses...... implying that perhaps Cyrus may have been the reincarnation of Jacob.

Genesis and the book of Judges has some correllations that perhaps imply that the Danite Judge Samson may have been the reincarnation of the Patrirach Judah. If 3000 Jewish soldiers had had any idea about that possibility....... a few of them might have assisted him rather than simply turning him over to the Philistines in bondage?

Hi Dennis. Welcome to the thread. I’m eager to here more about your views. I think we all share different truths and so we can all learn from each other. None of us knows everything but if we share we can discover more about truth by trying to see how each other sees it. Thanks for your comments. I don’t understand all what you said but over time hopefully I will learn.

 

[loverofhumanity]

Yes, I've read the same about Baha'i ... against idol worship, but them they come from Islam, so that's expected. But they don't understand the purpose either.

I think th Bahá’í view is that we are more for things than against.

The world might speak against racism while the Baha’is will talk up the oneness of humanity. Many statues and idols are beautiful and although we don’t worship them we also don’t go around destroying statues which is very different to what some groups do.

We wouldn’t tear down Buddhist statues or Hindu temples. On the contrary we are encouraged to pray in all churches, temples and mosques etc as we understand it is all the same one God that is being worshipped.

So I feel at home in a Buddhist Pagoda or Hindu temple or Christian church as I do the Bahá’í places of worship which I’ve all visited and prayed in.

 

[loverofhumanity]

They are interconnected. You cant have one without the other. All churches have the sacraments they just dont use the word because its too "Catholic."

I see what you mean. It all adds to the beauty of diversity.

 

[loverofhumanity]

I think these things are a result of having accepted the remedies offered by such people as Moses, Jesus, Mohammad, Joseph Smith, Bahaullah, Mirza Ghulam Ahmad, Brahma Kumaris (Dada Lekhraj), Sai Babas (Puttaparthy and Shirdi), Swaminarayans (Sahajananda), Arya Samaj (Dayananda), Charles Manson, etc. - creating their groups, each different from the other. These are not remedies but incurable infections.

Let’s say for instance Hinduism teaches ahimsa and Hindus went around killing people disregarding ahimsa. Would that be attributed to some infection caused by the teaching of ahimsa?

I don’t think so.

 

[loverofhumanity]

Again, different people believe in differing advice. So what you consider great counsel, others might feel is silly, or selfish, and vice-versa. No single religion should feel that their version of said 'advice' is the correct one. That's exclusive in nature. Besides all that, some folks don't believe God is so active in interplay with man, or some don't believe in God at all.

True. I think only when we put it into practice then we can see what the effect is good or bad. If a medicine claims to heal and upon applying it the person does not recover then it does not work. On the other hand if he remedy dies cure th disease then it has value.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

I see what you mean. It all adds to the beauty of diversity.

.....


Why do you put more emphasis on the spiritual without the physical?

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Just for clarification, OB, many people (I'm one of them) do refer to Brahman as God. Perhaps it came form poor translating by Abrahamics investigating Hinduism, but the fact is we're stuck with it. Very different concept from the Abrahamic God though. So on one hand I've argued that Aup is a theist, (with regard to Brahman) and at the same time I can safely declare myself an atheist to the Abrahamic god.

So it boils down to whether or not you call Brahman God.

What is Brahma since Brahman is god? Im thinking god more as an distinct creator.

 

[loverofhumanity]

But I never agreed to the above.
I begin to believe that humanity might have been better off 'back in the day'.
In 300 years we've left this World utterly dirtied up. It's filthy now and we preen on our 'science' achievements.
I dunno.....


I don't believe it's great now, and I like the idea of some bahais being around, as long as they never get strong enough to apply their legal and governmental; system.

I think you’ve got a very good point. Science is neither good nor bad depending on how it’s used. If it’s used to make atomic weapons and promote wars then it can be an evil. But if it’s used to serve and promote good then it can be of benefit.

As to our system it applies to Bahais only.

 

[loverofhumanity]

.....


Why do you put more emphasis on the spiritual without the physical?

I think if it’s a religion then it tends to emphasis spiritual things whereas science places emphasis on the physical world more.

I think it’s just the nature of religion to be like that.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

I think if it’s a religion then it tends to emphasis spiritual things whereas science places emphasis on the physical world more.

I think it’s just the nature of religion to be like that.

The physical isnt always scientific (I dont understand). Prayer is sometimes physical-bowing ones head, lighting a candle, folding ones hands, coming together in one house of worship, do you separate these from your spiritual devotion?

 

[Vinayaka]

I think th Bahá’í view is that we are more for things than against.

We wouldn’t tear down Buddhist statues or Hindu temples. On the contrary we are encouraged to pray in all churches, temples and mosques etc as we understand it is all the same one God that is being worshipped.

I'm never sure about the for things or against things. Personally, I like to stay neutral, neither for nor against, when it comes to religions other than my own, unless they're excessively intruding into my space. There is an old saying about villagers and a lion. "It is your duty to leave him alone, but if he enters the village, it is your duty to remove him, kill if necessary." So that would explain the gist of it.

Yes, I know you wouldn't destrop property. It's against the law in most countries.

True. I think only when we put it into practice then we can see what the effect is good or bad. If a medicine claims to heal and upon applying it the person does not recover then it does not work. On the other hand if he remedy dies cure th disease then it has value.

Even then it's hard to determine. Short term pain for long term gain comes to mind. We always have to look at the bigger picture, and the ego or desire can easily delude oneself into thinking something is good. Children and candy come to mind. Evangelising faiths certainly believe that conversion to their belief system is a good thing. I would beg to differ.

 

[Vinayaka]

What is Brahma since Brahman is god? Im thinking god more as an distinct creator.

Yes, that's the Abrahamic view ... God as creator. Not Brahman at all. Brahma, perhaps. Remember, Brahma, and Brahman are two entirely different concepts.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Yes, that's the Abrahamic view ... God as creator. Not Brahman at all. Brahma, perhaps. Remember, Brahma, and Brahman are two entirely different concepts.

I keep thinking Brahman is more experience In god and Brahma creator of all. But Brahma doesnt create Brahman? so Im at a loss.

 

[oldbadger]

And yet the words your previous leaders used for so called Covenant Breakers (anyone who disagreed back then), and occasionally just non-Baha'is like deluded, blind, walking away from God, diseased, and more are okay? Clearly a double standard. Of course they are excused by Baha'i because they're infallible, but for those of us who don't think they were infallible, there is no excuse. (I'm personally not offended, BTW, just pointing out how it could be seen as offensive by some.)

Even here, I see the criticism of non-Baha'i as not helpful. Then again it is a debate. Maybe both sides see the other POV as not helpful.

The other point I missed was that Aup's insults included many Hindu groups (most folks consider them Hindu, Aup doesn't) as well. Nobody is immune in the insult game. Also, he certainly isn't the first to refer to the Baha'i as a cult.

My side of the debating will continue, attempting to be cordial.

The Kingdom of the Cults was published circa 1970. Baha'i was included in it.

 

[Vinayaka]

I keep thinking Brahman is more experience In god and Brahma creator of all. But Brahma doesnt create Brahman? so Im at a loss.

They're independent. Brahma is the Creator God of dualistic Hinduism, the aspect of God that creates. He is normally included in the powers of Siva, for Saivites, Vishnu (also Krishna) for Vaishnavites, etc. and is rarely worshipped alone.

Brahman has two understandings ... one is the Absolute Causal Principle, Absolute Being beyond all time, form and space. (unmanifested) The other is the energy that permeates everything ... the substratum, like molecules are to wood or metal or air.

In Hinduism, most sects tend to put emphasis on mostly one of these concepts, or two, or sometimes all 3. It depends on what school the focus lies, right from absolute monism (God is all) to absolute dualism. (God is always separate)

Confusion about Hinduism usually arises when you hear two school of thought simultaneously. Because they often contradict each other, no wonder it gets confusing. Like trying top drive two cars simultaneously.

 

[Vinayaka]

The Kingdom of the Cults was published circa 1970. Baha'i was included in it.

At one time the tern 'cult' was nowhere near it's pejorative connotation today. It simply meant 'school'. Even today, in India, its often still used this way, like the cult of Murugan, just meaning all people who worship the God Murugan. I'm proud to be a member of that cult.

 

[Aupmanyav]

Let’s say for instance Hinduism teaches ahimsa and Hindus went around killing people disregarding ahimsa. Would that be attributed to some infection caused by the teaching of ahimsa?

Hindus generally do not go about killing people. Of course, there are criminals and murders in anger or passion. Killing someone must have some valid dharmic reason, for example, an enemy of the country. Butchering for food is OK for some but not OK for others (some 30% of Hindus are vegetarian). What to talk of killing people even killing an ant is an abomination in Hinduism.

 

[DennisTate]

Hi Dennis. Welcome to the thread. I’m eager to here more about your views. I think we all share different truths and so we can all learn from each other. None of us knows everything but if we share we can discover more about truth by trying to see how each other sees it. Thanks for your comments. I don’t understand all what you said but over time hopefully I will learn.

I will be very blunt that I have a mole.....
that has me wondering if I might be a certain person reincarnated????

There is no way that I could rule out the Dr. Ian Stevenson research:

Dr. Ian Stevenson's Reincarnation Research

I will now send you a personal message with some information that I suspect......
could be useful in saving some lives in the Middle East over the coming years and decades.

 

[DennisTate]

Elijah always comes first. The Last time Elijah came was 1844 as the Bab (Gate or Door).

I have been in the Cave of Elijah on Mt Carmel. Found it a bit materialistic, as tourists happy snapping while people trying to pray.

Though was a bounty to say a Prayer for Elijah in the Shadow of the Elijah for our Age, then also offer a Prayer for the Elijah of this day, also on My Carmel.

Regards Tony

Wow!!!!!!

I even think that it is significant that your post turned out to be #15050......