How are these Great Beings explained?

[TransmutingSoul]

Yes, but there is a key difference. The ritual invokes the actual presence of God, in mystic Hinduism. Actual inner beings (spirits) show up, to help with prayers or unseen blessings. The ritual is very far from being empty. But I wouldn't expect you to understand this either as It's an experience. So it's like a morning exercise, stretching is good for the physical body, the sadhana/puja is good for the soul body. Hindus believe we have to feed the soul body as well.

I understand you feel you need the ritual.

I ask if you are persecuted for your faith, are deprived of all you own, thrown in a cell with nothing but you, do you think you prayer would suffer because you have no objects to help in that prayer but your heart to offer it?

The same with Holy Communion in some branches of Christianity. They say they must partake of a piece of bread and a drink of grape juice for the prayer to be meaningful, wheras many other Christians do not use outward symbols.

So My thoughtss are the soul does not partake of material substance, but you would know this, as none of it what is presented would diminish. The soul is far removed from this world and when we attach our selves to this world, we have lost our connection to our own soul.

Challenging thoughts is what God always offers us.

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

.....
Why do you put more emphasis on the spiritual without the physical?

Service to humanity is the outward display of all our Spiritual longing and devotion in this world. We are not Spiritual if we are not a person of deeds to back the words.

Obligitory prayer involves Physical actions to aid in the correct attitude in prayer, which is detachment from our own selves and to show we are fully reliant upon God and His Mercy, Forgiveness and Bounty.

Regards Tony

 

[Vinayaka]

I understand you feel you need the ritual.

Tony, I don't need the ritual, but yes it does enriches my life. The physical body does not need delicious food, but occasionally it is enriching. 'Need' is a strong word, but I don't need it in the same way that prophet or manifestation' based religions need them. Moksha would come without ritual, but salvation can't happen without a prophet.

 

[oldbadger]

I think you’ve got a very good point. Science is neither good nor bad depending on how it’s used. If it’s used to make atomic weapons and promote wars then it can be an evil. But if it’s used to serve and promote good then it can be of benefit.

As to our system it applies to Bahais only.

Oh, put the weapons and guns to one side!
We've brought the world to the point of being an open sewer!
Nothing to do with weapons.
And the vast majority of the muck and dirt has been produced in the last 175 years or so.........
Wow! That's close to 1844!

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Tony, I don't need the ritual, but yes it does enriches my life. The physical body does not need delicious food, but occasionally it is enriching. 'Need' is a strong word, but I don't need it in the same way that prophet or manifestation' based religions need them. Moksha would come without ritual, but salvation can't happen without a prophet.

I know there is a variation of thoughts as to moksha, from this link;

Moksha - Wikipedia

Moksha refers to freedom from ignorance: self-realization and self-knowledge.

I offer that is what True belief in the Great Beings does acheive, it is why they came.

The issue here is our understanding of their Messages, while still full of ignorance, self realisation and self knowledge. It is not until we free ourselves little by little day by day of these hindrances, that we find true Liberty. True Liberty being in practicing their Laws and Advice as They intended.

By the way I do enjoy discussions when mutual respect is offered.

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Oh, put the weapons and guns to one side!
We've brought the world to the point of being an open sewer!
Nothing to do with weapons.
And the vast majority of the muck and dirt has been produced in the last 175 years or so.........
Wow! That's close to 1844!

Now you have recognised the results of mans rejection of Gods Laws and advice. We create our own punsihment in our choices and actions.

Regards Tony

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Service to humanity is the outward display of all our Spiritual longing and devotion in this world. We are not Spiritual if we are not a person of deeds to back the words.

Obligitory prayer involves Physical actions to aid in the correct attitude in prayer, which is detachment from our own selves and to show we are fully reliant upon God and His Mercy, Forgiveness and Bounty.

Regards Tony

Why would one bahai see it seprately one over another and you see it interrelated?

Also, could you practice without the physical? Why or shy not?

To both you and @loverofhumanity

 

[Vinayaka]

Service to humanity is the outward display of all our Spiritual longing and devotion in this world. We are not Spiritual if we are not a person of deeds to back the words.

Talking about doing service and doing service are two separate things. For some ex-Baha'is that was a real problem, and one of the reasons they left. (All talk, no action) But it's like anything else in religious realms. If you don't practice what you preach, you're a hypocrite. Individuals vary.

 

[Vinayaka]

I know there is a variation of thoughts as to moksha, from this link;

Moksha - Wikipedia

Moksha refers to freedom from ignorance: self-realization and self-knowledge.

Not what moksha is. It's freedom from samsara, a result of self-realisation (nirvikalpa samadhi). there is generally no parallel concept in Abrahamic fatihs, as they don't generally believe in reincarnation.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Yes 100% so.

This is a challenge for us all.

There is an old tradition

"The good deeds of the righteous are the sins of the near ones".

I see that as we can never do enough, we have to give every thought and action to giving to others.

Those being words that I too have judged my own hypocrisy.

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Not what moksha is. It's freedom from samsara, a result of self-realisation (nirvikalpa samadhi). there is generally no parallel concept in Abrahamic fatihs, as they don't generally believe in reincarnation.

Yes 100% so.

This is a challenge for us all.

There is an old tradition

"The good deeds of the righteous are the sins of the near ones".

I see that as we can never do enough, we have to give every thought and action to giving to others.

Those being words that I too have judged my own hypocrisy.

Regards Tony

Maybe nirvikalpa samadhi is more enshrined in my next reply noted above.

Nirvikalpa Samadhi state of Absolute Nothingness.

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Why would one bahai see it seprately one over another and you see it interrelated?

Also, could you practice without the physical? Why or shy not?

To both you and @loverofhumanity

I can not practice my Faith without being a person of deeds that support anything I also offer in words from the Great Beings.

Baha'u'llah says we would accuse ourselves of Hippocricy if we were words and no deeds.

The only things we must hold to are the required actions that relate to the Laws of God in this age.

Thus we will abide by thise required actions of our own free will. If we are deprived of the ability to perform those actions, Baha'u'llah has given verbal replacements as a bounty to us.

No man can prevent our conversation of heart.

Regards Tony

 

[Unveiled Artist]

I can not practice my Faith without being a person of deeds that support anything I also offer in words from the Great Beings.

Baha'u'llah says we would accuse ourselves of Hippocricy if we were words and no deeds.

The only things we must hold to are the required actions that relate to the Laws of God in this age.

Thus we will abide by thise required actions of our own free will. If we are deprived of the ability to perform those actions, Baha'u'llah has given verbal replacements as a bounty to us.

No man can prevent our conversation of heart.

Regards Tony

Thank you for addressing my question! Thank you.

Lover sees spirituality over physical. He isnt excluding the use of the physical but the importance of it.

Although I addressed this to him, in your view why would another bahai see spirituality as higher than 9hysical when you say (and I read it fro bahuallah posts ago) you say, um, in another perspective?

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Thank you for addressing my question! Thank you.

Lover sees spirituality over physical. He isnt excluding the use of the physical but the importance of it.

Although I addressed this to him, in your view why would another bahai see spirituality as higher than 9hysical when you say (and I read it fro bahuallah posts ago) you say, um, in another perspective?

Pyhisical actions taken in the Knowledge of our Spirituality, are Spiritual.

Work is elevated to worship in this dispensation as a bounty to all humanity.

So any work done in the Spirit of Faith and Service, is Spiritual worship.

What David offers, IMHO, is that in the end the physical will amount to nothing if not used for spiritual growth.

We are saying the same thing from a different direction.

There are many many quotes on this aspect of Faith.

Regards Tony

 

[Vinayaka]

Maybe nirvikalpa samadhi is more enshrined in my next reply noted above.

Nirvikalpa Samadhi state of Absolute Nothingness.

Depends on who you're talking to. It's total fullness for some. It's like that 'void' in Buddhism. Hindus will say that that same void is also the fullness of everything. So schools vary on it, and the good thing is that everyone will know eventually when all karmas are resolved, and whatever it is happens to the individual soul, in some future lifetime for most of us. But since everyone agrees it's beyond words, and the intellect, all discussion is actually moot.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Depends on who you're talking to. It's total fullness for some. It's like that 'void' in Buddhism. Hindus will say that that same void is also the fullness of everything. So schools vary on it, and the good thing is that everyone will know eventually when all karmas are resolved, and whatever it is happens to the individual soul. But since everyone agrees it's beyond words and the intellect, all discussion is actually moot.

Now, that I can confirm that as a winner.

Regards Tony

 

[Unveiled Artist]

What David offers, IMHO, is that in the end the physical will amount to nothing if not used for spiritual growth.

That is what Im refering to: physical amounts to nothing if not used for spiritual growth.

Can it also be said exactly the same that spiritual amounts for nothing if not used for physical growth?

We are saying the same thing from a different direction.

I knew you would say that. You arent saying the samething.

Diversity does not mean the same.

Nothing wrong with that.

De ja vu

 

[Dawnofhope]

Different cultures can communicate in different ways, in writing and in speech.

One debating tactic is to shock another debater in some way. By using such technique (within the rules) sometimes this causes snap replies which can produce more light upon the subject matter.

Now you know that this is true, because bahais often use the 'clash of swords bringing sparks of truth' phrase to make exactly such a point.

You have remembered some of what Abdu'l-Baha spoke of consultation. Here it is in context:

The members thereof must take counsel together in such wise that no occasion for ill-feeling or discord may arise. This can be attained when every member expresseth with absolute freedom his own opinion and setteth forth his argument. Should anyone oppose, he must on no account feel hurt for not until matters are fully discussed can the right way be revealed. The shining spark of truth cometh forth only after the clash of differing opinions. If after discussion, a decision be carried unanimously well and good; but if, the Lord forbid, differences of opinion should arise, a majority of voices must prevail.

Bahá'í Reference Library - Selections From the Writings of ‘Abdu’l-Bahá, Page 87

So who should the members of an assembly consult to avoid ill-feeling and discord?

They must then proceed with the utmost devotion, courtesy, dignity, care and moderation to express their views.

Selected Readings on Consultation

 

[Dawnofhope]

So God has allowed the words of his prophets and his religions to get corrupted. Except this time, it will be different? No, I'm not happy and I've become very skeptical about what people tell me is the Word of God. And no, by their fruits doesn't prove their religion. Usually it only proves that people can't live by what their religion teaches.

What is remarkable is how God's words have endured through the centuries that we can see with reasonable clarity the intent of Mosaic law, the gospels, and the Quran. Man has provided varied and contradictory interpretations for certain, but the essential message is clear enough for those willingly to prayerfully reflect and make efforts each day to apply these teachings to their lives.

 

[Dawnofhope]

What year did the Ummayads begin and what year did they end?

The Umayyad caliphate 661 - 750 BC but the Umayyad's legacy in Spain endured until 1492.

Emirate of Granada - Wikipedia