How are these Great Beings explained?

[Unveiled Artist]

Using the sun analogy. Jesus is the rays. The creator is the son. They are different but they are the same. I personally dont seperage rays from the sun. However, thats how you see it: different. Rays manifestations. Son creator. In christianity, there is no difference.

In Christianity, God became a human being; the Father became the Son so Jesus was God in the flesh.

Jesus is the image/mirror of an invisible god. Not IS but mirroe of. Christ is not thr creator. He is a image of him.

In Baha’i, the Son (Jesus) was like a clear mirror that reflected the Light (Holy Spirit) of the sun (God) to humanity by coming to earth and walking among men.

I understand it less flowery. Jesus is the mirror of god via the holy spirit at work.

The sun is not the rays. The sun is the sun. The rays are what we get from the sun.

The rays are the sun. There is no seperation in the nature of the sun. Thats all human.

The rays of the sun are the Holy Spirit that comes from God and it is seen in Jesus who is like a clear mirror that reflects those rays to humanity. However, the sun itself (God) does not descend into the mirror. No, the Sun remains above us in the sky just as God remains above all that can ever be recounted or perceived by humans.

Thats odd. The rays are the sun. Without the sun, there is no rays. Ghere cant be rays without the sun. They are one. "Man" seperates rays and sun. Nature does not.

The sun (God) shines on a clear mirror (Jesus) and we see the Light of the sun (Holy Spirit) reflect off of that mirror, but the rays of the sun (Holy Spirit) and the reflection of the sun in the mirror (Jesus) are not the sun (God).

The trinity is god (creator) is the sun and rays. When the rays (jesus) is no different than the sun since the rays are the son. Its not a mirror. In the trinity they go together. Man seperates them by label. There is no difference between manifestation and the creator. I woulsnt worship a human unless, if I believed in god, he was no different than god.

God is the sun. We can never see God. The rays of the sun (Holy Spirit) emanate from God (the sun) and then we see a perfect reflection of God which becomes visible in the mirror (Jesus).

Jesus is just written in a book.
The holy spirit is Inside you
God is unknown to you

If you want to see the sun, you have to put on sun glaces (receive the grace of god). I doing so, you are no longer blinded by the sun. As such, you experinced the rays: god in relationship (relationship) wjth the sun.

There is no difference. It is a relationship.

Christians use the word "is" because they see no difference between the mirror and what that mirror reflects. They dont divide the reflection from the source. That makes two gods. Instead, is, is a stronger expression to tell us the nature of god and son.

A christian knows the difference between father and son.

It id a relation-ship; jesus is not thr creator. I never heard that in Catholicism and protestent and I practiced both. Must be a bahai view; very negative. Reinterprenting scripture is wrong. Christians dont reinterpret the Torah. According to jews, they just see jesus in the five books where he does not exist (same as bahai putting bahaullah in the gospels and revelations).

Its a cycle. It is what it is.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

I personally dont seperage rays from the sun

Well done, you can not, as the Sun always gives rays of life.

We can not imagine a Sun ever without Rays.

Regards Tony

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Well done, you can not, as the Sun always gives rays of life.

We can not imagine a Sun ever without Rays.

Regards Tony

That is the trinity. So you believe in the trinity just by another name?

 

[TransmutingSoul]

That is the trinity. So you believe in the trinity just by another name?

It is not a Trinity that is Doctrine, it is a current understanding. So well done to you.

If you see it in that way, then I would ask you, could it be you beleive in God and Baha'u'llah, but have that belief by another Name and teaching, that of the Buddha?

I can assure you, do not pursue those thoughts on CAF. or any fundamental Christian site.

"...Nay, none can comprehend them save those that are possessed of an understanding heart. Say, He is that End for Whom no end in all the universe can be imagined, and for Whom no beginning in the world of creation can be conceived. Behold, O concourse of the earth, the splendours of the End, revealed in the Manifestations of the Beginning!" Baha'u'llah

Regards Tony

 

[Trailblazer]

@Carlita

I do not believe that the Son was the creator of the heavens and the earth because it makes no logical sense. Jesus was a man with Godlike qualities who manifested the attributes of God. No man can create the heavens and the earth.

It is all in how we think about it. I see the sun in the sky and it stays in the sky. The rays come down from the sky so they are from the sun but they have left the sun after they came down from the sun.

God is one and alone. Nobody is like God. Manifestations of God manifest God but they are not God. There is a difference between the Manifestations and the Creator according to Baha’i beliefs. Christians are free to believe whatever they want to, I don’t care.

I do not believe that the Holy Spirit lives inside of anyone’s body because I consider that irrational and it is not a Baha’i belief. Christians are free to believe whatever they want to, I don’t care.

Jesus did not exist when the Torah was written. Christians wrote Jesus into the Old Testament because they believe He is the Messiah the Jews have been waiting for, but He isn’t. Christians are free to believe whatever they want to, I don’t care.

Nobody owns any scriptures. They came from God. Reinterpreting implies that someone had the correct interpretation but who is to say who has the correct interpretation.

I do not know why we are still talking about scriptures that are thousands of years old. It is time to move on to the new age, Imo.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

That is the trinity. So you believe in the trinity just by another name?

Also remember the Body of Jesus, that is the Name on the Mirror, changes in each age God gives a Message. It is the Rays we see coming from the same Sun in each of the Names we put on the Mirror.

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

I do not believe that the Son was the creator of the heavens and the earth because it makes no logical sense. Jesus was a man with Godlike qualities who manifested the attributes of God. No man can create the heavens and the earth.

From the way I see it, It is the 'Christ' Holy Spirit that projects all we know as Creation.

Have you read this Provisional Translation as yet?

Tablet of the Universe

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Christians are free to believe whatever they want to, I don’t care

By the way I know you do care, we are in the age of great Frustrations. What greater frustration can there be?

Can we Imagine the Frustrations of Baha'u'llah and Abdul'baha?

Regards Tony

 

[Unveiled Artist]

It is not a Trinity that is Doctrine, it is a current understanding. So well done to you.

If you see it in that way, then I would ask you, could it be you beleive in God and Baha'u'llah, but have that belief by another Name and teaching, that of the Buddha?

I can assure you, do not pursue those thoughts on CAF. or any fundamental Christian site.

"...Nay, none can comprehend them save those that are possessed of an understanding heart. Say, He is that End for Whom no end in all the universe can be imagined, and for Whom no beginning in the world of creation can be conceived. Behold, O concourse of the earth, the splendours of the End, revealed in the Manifestations of the Beginning!" Baha'u'llah

Regards Tony

Haha. Thanks. Wishful thinking. In scripture, the trinity is the relationship between father, son, ans holy spirit. The Church (as most people think) defines it differently. They dont. Catholics dont believe jesus is the creator. They dont believe the accidents of bread and wine is jesus.

Got to get from the hearsay. Scripture doesnt say Is, it uses prepositions to discribe the trinity. Its there. Just people like to put down hearsay versions not scriptural ones.

Not me. I dont believe in the trinity. I dont like math but that doesnt mean I dont understand it. Its not a mystery.

The Buddha is Not another name for god. Thats all bahai. Not truth just their personal interpretation of sutras that the people and suttas (not scriptures) themselves dont teach.

Sad, but there ya go.

I understand christianity. I disagree with it and dont believe in any of it. Hoping people come to god is all abrahamics.

The thought is very selfish. Not the person, the mindset of others believe what you do rather than taking others (others) at their word.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Also remember the Body of Jesus, that is the Name on the Mirror, changes in each age God gives a Message. It is the Rays we see coming from the same Sun in each of the Names we put on the Mirror.

Regards Tony

Christianity only has one large ray. They dont seperate rays. Its all one sun. Thats the difference. Other than that, the concept is the same. Manifestations are mirror/image/likeness of the creator. Maybe trinity isnt a good word for you.

Describe the trinity from scripture not from christians?

 

[Trailblazer]

From the way I see it, It is the 'Christ' Holy Spirit that projects all we know as Creation.

I am not sure what you mean by "projects."

Have you read this Provisional Translation as yet?

Tablet of the Universe

Regards Tony

No, but thanks... I will bookmark that and read it as soon as i have time.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

I am not sure what you mean by "projects."

Think of a film projector as the Manifestation. It is the container and has the film of creation loaded within, which we can say is the Holy Spirit. When it is turned on, that is God sends His Messenger, the light projects from them this image into what can be seen.

All things made new, a new film of the Day of God projecting (Issuing Forth as per Tablet of Universe) from Baha'u'llah.

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

No, but thanks... I will bookmark that and read it as soon as i have time.

It is amazing, Creation first Spititual and then from the Spiritual the Material is explained in great detail.

Of course being a Provisional Translation ot may alter in some details. But still a great insight into the Message of Baha'u'llah.

Regards Tony

 

[Trailblazer]

By the way I know you do care, we are in the age of great Frustrations. What greater frustration can there be?

Can we Imagine the Frustrations of Baha'u'llah and Abdul'baha?

Regards Tony

I care but I do not care in the sense that I am fed up... I have a great deal of patience but you have NO IDEA what I have been through and am still going through posting to Jews and Christians for years on other forums....

Meanwhile, everything that I should be doing to take care of business in my own life has gone to hell in a bread basket..... and for what??? The blind will continue to be blind because they just cannot see what they do not want to see.

Don't kid yourself, this is all about the return of Jesus... They would have no problem with Baha'u'llah if He had never claimed to be the return of Christ... Christians only want to see Jesus, period. But they are not going to ever see Jesus again because Jesus is not coming back... Jesus said that Himself, can't they read?

John 14:19 Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more; but ye see me: because I live, ye shall live also.

John 17:4 I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do.

John 17:11 And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are.

I much prefer talking to nonbelievers. Where did they all go?

 

[Trailblazer]

By the way I know you do care, we are in the age of great Frustrations. What greater frustration can there be?

Can we Imagine the Frustrations of Baha'u'llah and Abdul'baha?

According to Shoghi Effendi, ours will be greater...

“For let every earnest upholder of the Cause of Bahá’u’lláh realize that the storms which this struggling Faith of God must needs encounter, as the process of the disintegration of society advances, shall be fiercer than any which it has already experienced. Let him be aware that so soon as the full measure of the stupendous claim of the Faith of Bahá’u’lláh comes to be recognized by those time-honored and powerful strongholds of orthodoxy, whose deliberate aim is to maintain their stranglehold over the thoughts and consciences of men, this infant Faith will have to contend with enemies more powerful and more insidious than the cruellest torture-mongers and the most fanatical clerics who have afflicted it in the past. What foes may not in the course of the convulsions that shall seize a dying civilization be brought into existence, who will reinforce the indignities which have already been heaped upon it!” The World Order of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 17

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Christianity only has one large ray. They dont seperate rays. Its all one sun. Thats the difference. Other than that, the concept is the same. Manifestations are mirror/image/likeness of the creator. Maybe trinity isnt a good word for you.

Describe the trinity from scripture not from christians?

I have given that explanation. It was by Abdul'baha posted above. We would be going around circles.

Stay happy Carlita.

Regards Tony

 

[Unveiled Artist]

I have given that explanation. It was by Abdul'baha posted above. We would be going around circles.

Stay happy Carlita.

Regards Tony

I read it. I don't see the difference unless you have a different definition of the trinity

Again, we read different things from the same source you give me. Im not bahai so you'd have to explain it or talk in circles. God doesn't open my eyes to your scripture. You have to explain it not just hope I understand by reading

And not clarifying when I ask you questions. If that's the case, its a waste of time. I like to learn new things not restating old stuff. Goes no where.

If you can't explain bahai version of trinity "that's different" than christian, I have no clue why you say you disagree but post scripture that supports it.​

See my confusion again?

 

[loverofhumanity]

Is the New Testament the Word of God? If "no", then it's nothing but religious myth. If "yes", there are still problems. People wrote the New Testament, not the manifestation. Is it accurate in reporting what Jesus said and did? If not, then what good is it? If it is accurate, then what's God doing? He keeps changing what the truth is.

A: Which truths are you saying keep being changed by God?

Baha’is accept it as the Word of God. We have other sources for instance from other Manifestations Who have confirmed both the New and Old Testament are the Word of God.

Here are some examples for you to skim through to get some idea how other Manifestations fully endorsed Jesus and the Bible.

These are Suras from the Quran below, confirming both New and Old Testament were the Word of God.

• Torah - "We gave Moses the Book and followed him up with a succession of messengers," (Sura 2:87).1
• Psalms - "We have sent thee inspiration, as We sent it to Noah and the Messengers after him: we sent inspiration to Abraham, Isma'il, Isaac, Jacob and the Tribes, to Jesus, Job, Jonah, Aaron, and Solomon, and to David We gave the Psalms," (4:163).
• Gospel - "It is He Who sent down to thee (step by step), in truth, the Book, confirming what went before it; and He sent down the Law (of Moses) and the Gospel (of Jesus) before this, as a guide to mankind, and He sent down the criterion (of judgment between right and wrong)," (3:3).
  Also, "And in their footsteps We sent Jesus the son of Mary, confirming the Law that had come before him: We sent him the Gospel: therein was guidance and light, and confirmation of the Law that had come before him: a guidance and an admonition to those who fear Allah," (5:46).

A Tribute to Jesus by Baha’u’llah

Know thou that when the Son of Man yielded up His breath to God, the whole creation wept with a great weeping. By sacrificing Himself, however, a fresh capacity was infused into all created things. Its evidences, as witnessed in all the peoples of the earth, are now manifest before thee. The deepest wisdom which the sages have uttered, the profoundest learning which any mind hath unfolded, the arts which the ablest hands have produced, the influence 86 exerted by the most potent of rulers, are but manifestations of the quickening power released by His transcendent, His all-pervasive, and resplendent Spirit.
We testify that when He came into the world, He shed the splendor of His glory upon all created things. Through Him the leper recovered from the leprosy of perversity and ignorance. Through Him, the unchaste and wayward were healed. Through His power, born of Almighty God, the eyes of the blind were opened, and the soul of the sinner sanctified.
Leprosy may be interpreted as any veil that interveneth between man and the recognition of the Lord, his God. Whoso alloweth himself to be shut out from Him is indeed a leper, who shall not be remembered in the Kingdom of God, the Mighty, the All-Praised. We bear witness that through the power of the Word of God every leper was cleansed, every sickness was healed, every human infirmity was banished. He it is Who purified the world. Blessed is the man who, with a face beaming with light, hath turned towards Him. Baha’u’llah

 

[TransmutingSoul]

See my confusion again?

Carlita, I see your confusion, it has been one of the most debated topics in Christianity, as in the end it is a mystery, they can not explain how the Trinity works.

Now if you want to see the contradictions as to what Christians think the Trinity means, then I did the search for you on CAF Forums. Check out the replies in this threads that I participated on CAF

Understanding the Trinity

Anytime I and any other Baha'i discussed the Mirror analogy of the Trinity on CAF, we are told that was a wrong understanding. Such as this comment by IgnatianPhilo to the same quote you do not see a difference with; "That's not trinity. That's a different sort of doctrine. In fact that definition is arrianism, not trinity."

Look for posts By Arthra - Then look at the replies using link on bottom left to all comments,
Also look for posts by me, Tony BS - Ditto
Look for posts by Servant19 - Ditto
There were a few Baha'is that came onto this Forum, David was there for a while as well....we got the size 12

They stopped posts when they reached 1000 posts. Many made the 1000 posts as well.

Regards Tony

 

[loverofhumanity]

I dont see how this is different than the trinity. Trinity says one god. Each spirit, person, and being have a relationship with each other. That relationship isnt the Creator, the son, or the holy spirit; its god.

bahaullah is a manifestation just as christ is the image of an moses the prophet of.

These are concepts of the trinity-referring to the rays as if its no different than the sun in nature but different in form.

-Oh. Yeah, I found that quote feature out by accident too. I usually look up and read the quotes on another translation site before posting since I cant understand RF king james and new. It does help

We believe that God is one like the Bible says except He is not composed, comprised or divided into or from 3 persons.

God exists independently of both the Holy Spirit and the Manifestations as He created both of them. They appear to be as God just as the sun ‘appears’ to be in a mirror facing it but if we break the mirrors, the sun still exists and shines.

So we believe that God does not require us or the Holy Spirit or Jesus to exist. He exists independently of all creation and beings.

We believe His Essence is even unknown to the Manifestations. All we know is God exists and what the Manifestations have told us about God’s attributes. Otherwise we know nothing.