How are these Great Beings explained?

[Unveiled Artist]

The only difference is we believe that there are not 3 persons in God but that God is one distinct and separate Being. Jesus was in the image of God like a pure mirror reflecting the sun but the sun itself, God didn’t descend into the mirror(Jesus)

The Holy Spirit is the rays of the sun or of God but again not God Himself. To us, God is above all and has no partners or equal. The Prophets or Beings like Christ were ‘reflections’ of God but not God Himself.

That is why Jesus says ‘My Father is greater than I ‘ because He knows God has no equal, not even Himself.

Its more, christians believe god "and" his father. They just feel the only way christ can only holy is he has to mirror god himself. That is the only if one mimics the person: you have to in likeness of the person you mirror. Jesus is just another joe smoe if he isnt a "manifestation of god". Bot gods likeness, of god himself.

Thats scripture. Christians have various expressions of the exact same thing. No jesus divinity, no savior. Joe smo like you and I. Is he human; if so, how can "we" be manif and not another? If not from god (trinity) is bahuallah a mirror of god?

A mirror and likeness but christians say he IS god because his likeness is the same as god. They do not differ in spirit

only in flesh

thats the trinity

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Edit: let me ask tony. The scriptures you listed and i commented on each-do you agree with my comments?

If so, we have the same definition of trinity that defines the relationship with god and manif.

If not, can you address that post?
You took time to paste it, maybe discuss it?

Baha'u'llah explains His own relationship to God, He testifies:

"When I contemplate, O my God, the relationship that bindeth me to Thee, I am moved to proclaim to all created things “verily I am God”; and when I consider my own self, lo, I find it coarser than clay!"

This is also what Christ said, but in other words. It is applicable to all the Great Beings. They have a dual staton, explained by Baha'u'llah as such;

"..The first station, which is related to His innermost reality, representeth Him as One Whose voice is the voice of God Himself… The second station is the human station, exemplified by the following verses: “I am but a man like you.” “Say, praise be to my Lord! Am I more than a man, an apostle?”

This is a link to a bit more detail where those quotes are taken from - Bahá'í Reference Library - The Kitáb-i-Aqdas, Pages 233-234

Why is this different to the Trinity...Well it is obvious you and I see the three aspects, but it is not written as a doctrine in the Bible. You must ask a person of the Christian Faith who holds the doctrine of the Trinity in their heart, as to how it would exclude all others but Jesus the Christ.

Regards Tony

Sounds like trinity to me. Thanks for the commentary. The thee thou I never understood both bible and bahai

1. I am god; relationship? Thats the trinity
2. Humans (man) cant be the voice of god?

3. Also, Tony. I live and practice among catholics.

They know the father
they know the son
they know the holy spirit as seperate

They dont differiatiate between father and son. Its a relationship. Thats the trinity none thing more.

 

[loverofhumanity]

Its more, christians believe god "and" his father. They just feel the only way christ can only holy is he has to mirror god himself. That is the only if one mimics the person: you have to in likeness of the person you mirror. Jesus is just another joe smoe if he isnt a "manifestation of god". Bot gods likeness, of god himself.

Thats scripture. Christians have various expressions of the exact same thing. No jesus divinity, no savior. Joe smo like you and I. Is he human; if so, how can "we" be manif and not another? If not from god (trinity) is bahuallah a mirror of god?

A mirror and likeness but christians say he IS god because his likeness is the same as god. They do not differ in spirit

only in flesh

thats the trinity

Hi Carlita. These quotes are from the Bible regarding there being only one God.

Mark 12:28-32 NLT
[28] One of the teachers of religious law was standing there listening to the debate. He realized that Jesus had answered well, so he asked, "Of all the commandments, which is the most important?"

[29] Jesus replied, "The most important commandment is this: 'Listen, O Israel! The LORD our God is the one and only LORD. [30] And you must love the LORD your God with all your heart, all your soul, all your mind, and all your strength.' [31] The second is equally important: 'Love your neighbor as yourself.' No other commandment is greater than these."

[32] The teacher of religious law replied, "Well said, Teacher. You have spoken the truth by saying that there is only one God and no other.

Using Thompson’s Chain reference bible these are other passages that state there is only one God.

One God Deuteronomy 4:35 Deuteronomy 6:4 Deuteronomy 32:39 2 Samuel 7:22 1 Chronicles 17:20 Psalm 83:18 Psalm 86:10 Isaiah 43:10 Isaiah 44:6 Isaiah 45:18 Mark 12:29 1 Corinthians 8:4 Ephesians 4:6 1 Timothy 2:5 1 John 5:7

1Tim 2.5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

So Jesus here is described as a ‘Mediator’ between God and men but that He is a man not God.

PS: RF is awesome. I didn’t know that hyperlinks to those quotes would show up on the post.

 

[loverofhumanity]

That is one of my favorite passages that you quoted.

Along the same lines of not following what other people say, Baha’u’llah wrote that we are all responsible for our own beliefs:

“It follows, therefore, that every man hath been, and will continue to be, able of himself to appreciate the Beauty of God, the Glorified. Had he not been endowed with such a capacity, how could he be called to account for his failure? If, in the Day when all the peoples of the earth will be gathered together, any man should, whilst standing in the presence of God, be asked: “Wherefore hast thou disbelieved in My Beauty and turned away from My Self,” and if such a man should reply and say: “Inasmuch as all men have erred, and none hath been found willing to turn his face to the Truth, I, too, following their example, have grievously failed to recognize the Beauty of the Eternal,” such a plea will, assuredly, be rejected.For the faith of no man can be conditioned by any one except himself.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 143

I think that most people have developed a closer relationship with their religious leaders than the Manifestations, not realising that however well meaning they may be the difference is that the Manifestations are infallible but the leaders make mistakes.

 

[Trailblazer]

I think that most people have developed a closer relationship with their religious leaders than the Manifestations, not realising that however well meaning they may be the difference is that the Manifestations are infallible but the leaders make mistakes.

I suppose they do, but bear in mind that only Baha'is have the Word that came directly from an infallible Manifestation of God... the Christians and Jews have to rely upon the Bible and the Torah, so they need their leaders to explain what those are supposed to mean....

I think that Muslims probably rely more upon the Qur'an than they do on their leaders, but that is just my impression.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Hi Carlita. These quotes are from the Bible regarding there being only one God.

Mark 12:28-32 NLT
[28] One of the teachers of religious law was standing there listening to the debate. He realized that Jesus had answered well, so he asked, "Of all the commandments, which is the most important?"

[29] Jesus replied, "The most important commandment is this: 'Listen, O Israel! The LORD our God is the one and only LORD. [30] And you must love the LORD your God with all your heart, all your soul, all your mind, and all your strength.' [31] The second is equally important: 'Love your neighbor as yourself.' No other commandment is greater than these."

[32] The teacher of religious law replied, "Well said, Teacher. You have spoken the truth by saying that there is only one God and no other.

Using Thompson’s Chain reference bible these are other passages that state there is only one God.

One God Deuteronomy 4:35 Deuteronomy 6:4 Deuteronomy 32:39 2 Samuel 7:22 1 Chronicles 17:20 Psalm 83:18 Psalm 86:10 Isaiah 43:10 Isaiah 44:6 Isaiah 45:18 Mark 12:29 1 Corinthians 8:4 Ephesians 4:6 1 Timothy 2:5 1 John 5:7

1Tim 2.5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

So Jesus here is described as a ‘Mediator’ between God and men but that He is a man not God.

PS: RF is awesome. I didn’t know that hyperlinks to those quotes would show up on the post.

I dont see how this is different than the trinity. Trinity says one god. Each spirit, person, and being have a relationship with each other. That relationship isnt the Creator, the son, or the holy spirit; its god.

bahaullah is a manifestation just as christ is the image of an moses the prophet of.

These are concepts of the trinity-referring to the rays as if its no different than the sun in nature but different in form.

-Oh. Yeah, I found that quote feature out by accident too. I usually look up and read the quotes on another translation site before posting since I cant understand RF king james and new. It does help

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Also, I think you just copied and pasted. I read all these verses. You gotta answer me how the trinity is not in scripture given the relationship between father/son/holy spirit (trinity) is specifically in the bible both in your verses and in the bible itself.

The point of the exersise was to show there is no 'Doctrine of Trinity written in the Bible, it is an addition to which these verses are applicable;

Deuteronomy 4:2"You shall not add to the word which I am commanding you, nor take away from it, that you may keep the commandments of the LORD your God which I command you."

Proverbs 30:6"Do not add to His words Or He will reprove you, and you will be proved a liar".

Mark 7:13"thus invalidating the word of God by your tradition which you have handed down; and you do many things such as that."

Your view of the Trinity is by no means main stream as you have no belief in God the Creator. As such you have not the view of an Unknowable, unapproachable God and make Man God as part of your idea of the Trinity.

Please correct me if I misread one of your posts explaining your view of a Trinity.

There is no issues of seeing the three aspects of God, the Holy Spirit and the Messenger, as long as it does not blind ones vision to seeing God, Holy Spirit and Messenger in all Faiths.

If you can also see Allah, Holy Spirit and Muhammad within the Revelation of Muhammad, just as you see God, Holy Spirit and Jesus in the Christain Faith, you have a good grasp of what was offered by Baha'u'llah.

Regards Tony

 

[Unveiled Artist]

The trinity:

Is a relationship/co-relation or interconnection between three (tri) things/people/ideas etc. Compared to duality (two), and unity (one).

The point of the exersise was to show there is no 'Doctrine of Trinity written in the Bible, it is an addition to which these verses are applicable;

The "doctrine" of the trinity is showing the relation-ship between father (creator), son (jesus), holy spirit (abstract source of connection-love, mercy, etc).

Since these three (tri) things are correlated, they call that unity (one).

In English, when two things are considered unified, sometimes people use this is an exact-copy. In religion, since it is not a math equation, the relationship is personal. As such, there is no difference between the three. Hence the verb To Be (Is) rather than Like or Copy.

They are: mirrors, images of, likeness, prophet to their master, son to their father, manifestation. Inseperable from the creator.

That is the core of the trinity. Tri being three while bahaullah and god meaning duality and so forth.

You shall not add to the word which I am commanding you, nor take away from it, that you may keep the commandments of the LORD your God which I command you."

As a result, there is nothing added. Instead of hearsay, since people "describe" NOT define trinity based their relationship with god, go by scripture and its "contextual" not verbatim definition of the trinity. Keep in mind tri means three nothing more. If you see symbolism in water and wine and walking on water, why not the trinity?

Do not add to His words Or He will reprove you, and you will be proved a liar".

Relationship between father/son/holy spirit isnt a lie, right?

Bahaullah relationship with god is not a lie, right?

thus invalidating the word of God by your tradition which you have handed down; and you do many things such as that."

Tradition just means beliefs and practices carried over from past to present and kept for future. If no one has tradition, they are modern, most likely eclectic, and new age.

Your view of the Trinity is by no means main stream as you have no belief in God the Creator. As such you have not the view of an Unknowable, unapproachable God and make Man God as part of your idea of the Trinity.

I learned this and experienced this in the Roman Catholic Church. I was a convert so I had time to read the bible differently and understand the sacraments etc differently than one who has been raised in it.

Please correct me if I misread one of your posts explaining your view of a Trinity.

Yes. I think youre missing the points.

There is no issues of seeing the three aspects of God, the Holy Spirit and the Messenger, as long as it does not blind ones vision to seeing God, Holy Spirit and Messenger in all Faiths.

Blind?

One big reason I dont follow god-faiths.

If you can also see Allah, Holy Spirit and Muhammad within the Revelation of Muhammad, just as you see God, Holy Spirit and Jesus in the Christain Faith, you have a good grasp of what was offered by Baha'u'llah.

The problem is, you guys get flared over the word "trinity" instead of understanding what it means....

For yourself Not from meanstream and hearsay.

Its a personal relationship with god not a right/wrong one.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Relationship between father/son/holy spirit isnt a lie, right?

Bahaullah relationship with god is not a lie, right?

I will answer this first, considering it was in response to the warnings of adding to the Words in the Bible.

Both the statements you offered are correct, it is not an issue, if no meaning by man has been added to what the Bible Offered.

The true intent of the Bible was for us to recognise Baha'u'llah. Baha'u'llah is the Spirit that would take what was Christs and show it unto us and guide us to all Truth.

If a doctrine called a Trinity prevents us seeing this, then the Bible warnings have been likewise proved accurate and sound.

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

That is the core of the trinity. Tri being three while bahaullah and god meaning duality and so forth.

The three aspects of God, Holy Spirit and Messenger are present in all the Faiths, of all the Great Beings.

We have offered it was also present at the time the Buddha received alightenment.

That we do not see that the Source is One God and that the Holy Spirit is given to all Gods Messengers, is because of the input man has added to what was said.

Regards Tony

 

[Unveiled Artist]

If a doctrine called a Trinity prevents us seeing this, then the Bible warnings have been likewise proved accurate and sound.

Do you understand the nature of god, holy spirit, and son having three different roles and are interconnected with each other?

 

[Unveiled Artist]

The three aspects of God, Holy Spirit and Messenger are present in all the Faiths, of all the Great Beings.

We have offered it was also present at the time the Buddha received alightenment.

That we do not see that the Source is One God and that the Holy Spirit is given to all Gods Messengers, is because of the input man has added to what was said.

Regards Tony

You have to rephrase. Im asking if you understand. I disagree with The Buddha, Hindu, and all other faiths that are not Muslim, but thats not my point.

Do you understand the relationship between holy spirit, manifestation, and creator?

 

[Unveiled Artist]

@Tony Bristow-Stagg

Do you understand my other post?

Thats the clearest I can discribe the trinity. I cant tell if you disagree because you do not refer to anything in the post just tell me what you believe.

 

[CG Didymus]

The mistake made by many I believe is they follow what people say instead of what the Word of God actually says.

“man can never hope to attain unto the knowledge of the All-Glorious, can never quaff from the stream of divine knowledge and wisdom, can never enter the abode of immortality, nor partake of the cup of divine nearness and favour, unless and until he ceases to regard the words and deeds of mortal men as a standard for the true understanding and recognition of God and His Prophets.

So we should be following what the Manifestations have said and not what people or religious leaders are saying.

Is the New Testament the Word of God? If "no", then it's nothing but religious myth. If "yes", there are still problems. People wrote the New Testament, not the manifestation. Is it accurate in reporting what Jesus said and did? If not, then what good is it? If it is accurate, then what's God doing? He keeps changing what the truth is.

 

[CG Didymus]

That is one of my favorite passages that you quoted.

Along the same lines of not following what other people say, Baha’u’llah wrote that we are all responsible for our own beliefs:

“It follows, therefore, that every man hath been, and will continue to be, able of himself to appreciate the Beauty of God, the Glorified. Had he not been endowed with such a capacity, how could he be called to account for his failure? If, in the Day when all the peoples of the earth will be gathered together, any man should, whilst standing in the presence of God, be asked: “Wherefore hast thou disbelieved in My Beauty and turned away from My Self,” and if such a man should reply and say: “Inasmuch as all men have erred, and none hath been found willing to turn his face to the Truth, I, too, following their example, have grievously failed to recognize the Beauty of the Eternal,” such a plea will, assuredly, be rejected.For the faith of no man can be conditioned by any one except himself.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 143

So... we got the people going before the Inquisition. Should a Jew recant their faith and convert to the Catholic Church? By Baha'i teachings, none of them. They should both become Islamic? But, there's still a problem. What was Islam doing at the time? Were they any better than Judaism or Catholism?

 

[Trailblazer]

So... we got the people going before the Inquisition. Should a Jew recant their faith and convert to the Catholic Church? By Baha'i teachings, none of them. They should both become Islamic? But, there's still a problem. What was Islam doing at the time? Were they any better than Judaism or Catholism?

Sorry, but you lost me....
How is that related to the passage I posted?

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Do you understand the nature of god, holy spirit, and son having three different roles and are interconnected with each other?

Carlita - This is my view;

Bahá'í Reference Library - Some Answered Questions, Pages 113-115

This explains all the Great Beings. This is the explanation that will ultimately bring unity in our given Faiths. This will be universally accepted.

Regards Tony

@Tony Bristow-Stagg

Do you understand my other post?

Thats the clearest I can discribe the trinity. I cant tell if you disagree because you do not refer to anything in the post just tell me what you believe.

If you see what you beleive in that answer given above by Abdul'baha, then you we are having the same thoughts.

Regards Tony

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Carlita - This is my view;

Bahá'í Reference Library - Some Answered Questions, Pages 113-115

This explains all the Great Beings. This is the explanation that will ultimately bring unity in our given Faiths. This will be universally accepted.

Regards Tony



If you see what you beleive in that answer given above by Abdul'baha, then you we are having the same thoughts.

Regards Tony

This is the trinity:

The epitome of the discourse is that the Reality of Christ was a clear mirror, and the Sun of Reality—that is to say, the Essence of Oneness, with its infinite perfections and attributes—became visible in the mirror. The meaning is not that the Sun, which is the Essence of the Divinity, became divided and multiplied—for the Sun is one—but it appeared in the mirror. This is why Christ said, “The Father is in the Son,” meaning that the Sun is visible and manifest in this mirror.

In christianity, this italic is expressed by jesus being a physical "image" of an invisible god. Again, christians use Is because they see no differientation between the father and son. (They are one; unified)

Its an expression of unity between two people: the sun is the rays. They cannot be separated and still call them rays.

What trinity are you refereing to where scripture says jesus the human is god the spirit?

Which denimination rejects the father for the son?

Dont give rescources. Please talk.

With your link...

You have to add commentary. I can read something different than what you read from the same text. Spirituality is not a math equation. No right or wrong just belief and interpretation.

Do you understand the nature between father and manifestation?

 

[Trailblazer]

In christianity, this italic is expressed by jesus being a physical "image" of an invisible god. Again, christians use Is because they see no differientation between the father and son. (They are one; unified)

In Christianity, God became a human being; the Father became the Son so Jesus was God in the flesh.

In Baha’i, the Son (Jesus) was like a clear mirror that reflected the Light (Holy Spirit) of the sun (God) to humanity by coming to earth and walking among men.

Its an expression of unity between two people: the sun is the rays. They cannot be separated and still call them rays.

The sun is not the rays. The sun is the sun. The rays are what we get from the sun.

The rays of the sun are the Holy Spirit that comes from God and it is seen in Jesus who is like a clear mirror that reflects those rays to humanity. However, the sun itself (God) does not descend into the mirror. No, the Sun remains above us in the sky just as God remains above all that can ever be recounted or perceived by humans.

There are many different ways to word this...

The sun (God) shines on a clear mirror (Jesus) and we see the Light of the sun (Holy Spirit) reflect off of that mirror, but the rays of the sun (Holy Spirit) and the reflection of the sun in the mirror (Jesus) are not the sun (God).

God is the sun. We can never see God. The rays of the sun (Holy Spirit) emanate from God (the sun) and then we see a perfect reflection of God which becomes visible in the mirror (Jesus).

 

[TransmutingSoul]

This is the trinity:

The epitome of the discourse is that the Reality of Christ was a clear mirror, and the Sun of Reality—that is to say, the Essence of Oneness, with its infinite perfections and attributes—became visible in the mirror. The meaning is not that the Sun, which is the Essence of the Divinity, became divided and multiplied—for the Sun is one—but it appeared in the mirror. This is why Christ said, “The Father is in the Son,” meaning that the Sun is visible and manifest in this mirror.

Yes that is the Baha'i explanation, it is not the Trinity many Christians will accept. Your heart has, well done to you. There are further aspects of this that are in my current vision.

In christianity, this italic is expressed by jesus being a physical "image" of an invisible god. Again, christians use Is because they see no differientation between the father and son. (They are one; unified)

It is the Man Jesus that is the Mirror. This is what I think you are yet to consider and it will be the point that will be made in the next few passages.

Also In this regard all the Great Beings are the Mirror. We can put any Name on the mirror, it is God that gave us that Name and that person.

Its an expression of unity between two people: the sun is the rays. They cannot be separated and still call them rays.

Now the crucial part of this explanation, Yes you are correct, the Sun and the Rays can not be seperated, this leads us to the next part;

What trinity are you refereing to where scripture says jesus the human is god the spirit?

This is the key, it is not the Human Jesus but the 'Christ' which is reflected in the Mirror of Jesus, that is the Holy Spirit of God, Christ is the Rays of the Sun. Christ is the Rays that comes from all the Great Beings, the Mirrors. This is how Jesus is the First and the Last.

Each time God sends a Mesenger, a Great Being, they are born as 'Christ', of the Holy Spirit.

Which denomination rejects the father for the son?

All do. The Father in many Passages is not God, it is another Name or Station.

The Father is Baha'u'llah. Christ in the Station of the Son has come back in the Station of the Father, a Natural progression this world offers, a Son over time becomes a Father.

Do you understand the nature between father and manifestation?

The Father is a Title given to Baha'u'llah, the Manifestation of God for this age.

The Father is not God, the Father is also Christ, Christ is also the Son and the Stations of all the Great Beings. A spiritual relationship is inferred in the station of Prophethood. Thus, Abraham was the "Friend" of God, Moses was His "Lawgiver",
Jesus was the (spiritual) "Son" of God, Muhammad was the "Apostle" of God, The Bab was the "Gate" of God.and Baha'u'llah is the "Glory" of God.

Regards Tony