How Banks Are Enslaving Humans

[Stevicus]

It is pathetic that such things are associated with a certain side, rather than both sides. It's sad that those can be considered a political swing towards one direction, rather a step towards a more equal society (even we have only pretty much had baby steps).

I agree. Historically, the right has generally been behind the left, in terms of social, political, and economic progress. They unsuccessfully fought tooth and nail to keep slavery, just as they were unsuccessful in their fight against the labor movement and similar reforms. Just about everything that is negative or shameful about US history can be laid at the feet of the right, which is why it's so incredulous that they would even attempt to claim the moral high ground over the left. The best they can do is say that they're better than Stalin or Mao, but that's not saying much.

We're number 1 in a few areas, but they aren't areas to brag about.

It doesn't really matter to me if we're number 1 or not. However, if I was to compare with other countries, I wouldn't compare economic policies (which is what the previous comparison involved), and instead, I would concentrate on results as manifested in various quality of life indicators. If the policies are any good, that would show up in the overall quality of life for the people as a whole.

Advertisers and marketers also spend a ton of money researching psychology and sociology into learning the best ways to get people to buy and spend. How anyone can view such a thing as ethical or logical is beyond me. It's deliberate manipulation and wasteful consumption. Capitalism favors the Machiavellian Prince (where a corporate executive has less to fear from the public than a real prince), and as a result the world, and all living things on it, are bearing the cost. Many tyrants have killed large amounts of people in large amounts, but in the name of profits, dangerous chemicals have been released to the public (and "on" the public), additives that are health hazards are added to food, oceanic garbage patches exist as a byproduct, regulated commercial use has not prevented the Tragedy of the Commons, and the system we have is one in which even the Lockean Proviso is something that will not maximize profits and is an externality worth dismissing, because they are, in most cases, too powerless to do anything about it.

I do try to give some benefit of the doubt and take into consideration that not all capitalists are the same. In many ways, I view capitalists as being politicians (some are good, some are bad), yet there seems to be this perception that capitalism is some kind of "science" and viewed as "above politics." I would just prefer that they be honest.

I have noticed that the debate between capitalism and socialism has shifted somewhat since the Cold War. It used to be more of an "us vs. them" argument, so those who supported "our side" supported capitalism by default. But since the collapse of the Soviet Union and since China has turned "capitalist," the argument may ultimately be "us vs. us." I can still sense subtle tinges of paranoia and shades of McCarthyism whenever a discussion might be related to socialism, although that's been slowly subsiding as that generation has been dying off.

 

[suncowiam]

Do you realize there are many things you can't do without a credit or debit card? Signing these contracts aren't always a choice.

It doesnt mean you become a slave. Credit is not a form of income. You still have to manage risks. Just because a bank's process allowed you further credit does not mean you deserved it. You are the only one truly responsible for your own financial health. That usually starts with a reliable source of income. You spend within your means and use credit where only needed.

 

[suncowiam]

It's less convenient, but people do without those things.
Things like credit cards are really no burden at all, provided one promptly pays the tab.
Where people get in trouble is using them irresponsibly....then they complain about the terms.
But even if the government took over tightly controlling such things for the benefit of consumers (as some advocate), can we really trust them either? If you want to see really thuggish behavior, try owing the local, state or fed gov some money....see what happens. They have far greater power, & exercise far less care in wringing money from the debtor.

I agree. I don't mean to toot my own horns here, but I actually make money from the credit card companies with cash back and rewards. I understand some folks have to deal with emergencies and such, but in the long run, credit can be used temporarily but often to an optimal point where you don't have to pay interest and fees.

 

[dust1n]

I don't know about banks being slavedrivers. There isn't a debtor's prison or anything like that.

But in general, most of the American economy is so far beyond rigged, I'd suggest disengaging as much as possible from the economic system.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Where people get in trouble is using them irresponsibly....then they complain about the terms.

And not everyone uses them irresponsibly, but some people do end up using them in a pitch so they can pay bills and eat.
As for doing without, people who travel can't do without.

 

[Revoltingest]

I agree. I don't mean to toot my own horns here, but I actually make money from the credit card companies with cash back and rewards. I understand some folks have to deal with emergencies and such, but in the long run, credit can be used temporarily but often to an optimal point where you don't have to pay interest and fees.

Aye, that's the proper way.

 

[Revoltingest]

And not everyone uses them irresponsibly, but some people do end up using them in a pitch so they can pay bills and eat.
As for doing without, people who travel can't do without.

It depends how one travels.
But if this is slavery, then everyone everywhere is a slave (to something). I'm a slave to government. Amish are slaves to farms. Doctors are slaves to patients. Politicians are slaves to voters. Tenants are slaves to landlords. Landlords are slaves to tenants.
This perspective is just utterly without value.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

It depends how one travels.
But if this is slavery, then everyone everywhere is a slave (to something). I'm a slave to government. Amish are slaves to farms. Doctors are slaves to patients. Politicians are slaves to voters. Tenants are slaves to landlords. Landlords are slaves to tenants.
This perspective is just utterly without value.

I never claimed it was slavery. But we are in a precarious situation in society when far too many people hold far too great of a power over far too many people. We've reached a point in which banks, who are responsible for credit reports, are able to decide if we get a job or not. Of course it isn't the bank who is directly making that decision, but the banks are advising employment decisions based on what they are reporting about us.

 

[Revoltingest]

I never claimed it was slavery. But we are in a precarious situation in society when far too many people hold far too great of a power over far too many people. We've reached a point in which banks, who are responsible for credit reports, are able to decide if we get a job or not. Of course it isn't the bank who is directly making that decision, but the banks are advising employment decisions based on what they are reporting about us.

Banks aren't solely responsible for credit reports....they're just one of many (eg, landlords, stores) who report to agencies. Banks lack the power you attribute to them. But if one wrecks one's own credit, that's not the fault of creditors. People need to stop believing they're just hapless victims of every institution they deal with, & take some responsibility for their actions, choices & consequences.

 

[suncowiam]

Banks aren't solely responsible for credit reports....they're just one of many (eg, landlords, stores) who report to agencies. Banks lack the power you attribute to them. But if one wrecks one's own credit, that's not the fault of creditors. People need to stop believing they're just hapless victims of every institution they deal with, & take some responsibility for their actions, choices & consequences.

Those are my thoughts exactly. I'm sorry but I found it extremely disappointing to compare banking to slavery. This just distorts and trivializes how abhorrent real slavery is.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Banks aren't solely responsible for credit reports....they're just one of many (eg, landlords, stores) who report to agencies. Banks lack the power you attribute to them. But if one wrecks one's own credit, that's not the fault of creditors. People need to stop believing they're just hapless victims of every institution they deal with, & take some responsibility for their actions, choices & consequences.

The main three (Equifax, Trans Union, and Experian in America) may not be banks, and banks may not be the sole purpose, but banks play a very strong role.
And, yes, it is very much the fault of the credit reporting agencies because **** happens. Many things require a good credit rating, and if you don't have one, because either you made poor choices or were faced with hardships, there is no difference when it comes to a credit report, you will be denied solely because you have some sort of financial difficulties. And sometimes you may not have had any difficulties, but erroneously reporting a problem when there is none is not necessarily an easy thing to clear (I've been trying for months know to get Comcast off mine, and Comcast itself does not even acknowledge there is a problem). If you did make mistakes, and are ready to "do the right thing," how can you even expect to get a job because you're constantly denied employment because your credit is in shambles?

 

[Revoltingest]

The main three (Equifax, Trans Union, and Experian in America) may not be banks, and banks may not be the sole purpose, but banks play a very strong role.
And, yes, it is very much the fault of the credit reporting agencies because **** happens. Many things require a good credit rating, and if you don't have one, because either you made poor choices or were faced with hardships, there is no difference when it comes to a credit report, you will be denied solely because you have some sort of financial difficulties. And sometimes you may not have had any difficulties, but erroneously reporting a problem when there is none is not necessarily an easy thing to clear (I've been trying for months know to get Comcast off mine, and Comcast itself does not even acknowledge there is a problem). If you did make mistakes, and are ready to "do the right thing," how can you even expect to get a job because you're constantly denied employment because your credit is in shambles?

Credit reports are entirely the result of conduct of the subject person. Sometimes **** happens, & sometimes they're just dishonest deadbeats, but their score is a predictor of future behavior. Life can be tough & unfair, but some people manage to get strong credit even in bad times....they do what it takes to meet their obligations. I've found a strong correlation between bad credit & lousy tenants. People with excuses for defaulting on debts will give me excuses instead of rent.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Credit reports are entirely the result of conduct of the subject person. Sometimes **** happens, & sometimes they're just dishonest deadbeats, but their score is a predictor of future behavior. Life can be tough & unfair, but some people manage to get strong credit even in bad times....they do what it takes to meet their obligations. I've found a strong correlation between bad credit & lousy tenants. People with excuses for defaulting on debts will give me excuses instead of rent.

They predict future behavior no more than the test McDonald's wants applicants to take does. It has as much weight, bearing, meaning, and ability to predict behavior, as an IQ number. It's yet another meaningless number that is attached to us, another way to control. People can hardly make mistakes anymore because there is so much intrusion into our lives. This credit report really does nothing more than a way to follow people around, and hurdling them into the ground en mass as soon as someone slips, yet for a few it's yet self-created and self-awarded cushion to help keep power in the "upper tiers."
My own credit report, I did not choose to be laid off and put into a position of using credit cards to live during unemployment and then a couple months of not making enough (which is a part of why I am where I'm at), I didn't choose for Comcast's billing system to mess up and say I didn't pay for an internet modem that I never even ordered, I did not choose to have a hospital report my payment as delinquent, even though after being sent to a few different departments their copy of the reciept was found buried under a stack of papers, and I didn't choose to have AT&T to make some claim for some reason they still don't know why. (I also didn't choose to be sued by a credit card company who, by their own admission in the court papers, received a payment in the amount of UNKOWN, but that was taken off my report).
I haven't had any credit turbulence in nearly a decade, but my score is still poor. Actually, the things dragging it down are the stuff this isn't my fault, like Comcast and AT&T. Another thing that is dragging it down is the length of my established credit lines. That means, having only gotten a credit card within the past year, this account is actually rated very poorly just from the shortness of the time.
Which also reminds me I couldn't even get a car loan until I had a signer, because getting a loan with no credit is really hard to do.
So, really, what is the use of a credit rating? How are they good for anything other than destroying liberty, and enforcing "their rules and ways" on everyone else?

 

[Revoltingest]

They predict future behavior no more than the test McDonald's wants applicants to take does. It has as much weight, bearing, meaning, and ability to predict behavior, as an IQ number. It's yet another meaningless number that is attached to us, another way to control. People can hardly make mistakes anymore because there is so much intrusion into our lives. This credit report really does nothing more than a way to follow people around, and hurdling them into the ground en mass as soon as someone slips, yet for a few it's yet self-created and self-awarded cushion to help keep power in the "upper tiers."
My own credit report, I did not choose to be laid off and put into a position of using credit cards to live during unemployment and then a couple months of not making enough (which is a part of why I am where I'm at), I didn't choose for Comcast's billing system to mess up and say I didn't pay for an internet modem that I never even ordered, I did not choose to have a hospital report my payment as delinquent, even though after being sent to a few different departments their copy of the reciept was found buried under a stack of papers, and I didn't choose to have AT&T to make some claim for some reason they still don't know why. (I also didn't choose to be sued by a credit card company who, by their own admission in the court papers, received a payment in the amount of UNKOWN, but that was taken off my report).
I haven't had any credit turbulence in nearly a decade, but my score is still poor. Actually, the things dragging it down are the stuff this isn't my fault, like Comcast and AT&T. Another thing that is dragging it down is the length of my established credit lines. That means, having only gotten a credit card within the past year, this account is actually rated very poorly just from the shortness of the time.
Which also reminds me I couldn't even get a car loan until I had a signer, because getting a loan with no credit is really hard to do.
So, really, what is the use of a credit rating? How are they good for anything other than destroying liberty, and enforcing "their rules and ways" on everyone else?

The cold hard fact is that credit reports do predict the future, even if imperfectly. Thousand of tenants have proven it to me. Sure it sucks for those with low scores who think their historical problems should be no one else's business. But for those of us who extend credit, their history not only predicts behavior, it also corrects it. Reporting a default causes people to pay money they tried to skip out on...as soon as they need clean credit to borrow from someone else.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

The cold hard fact is that credit reports do predict the future, even if imperfectly. Thousand of tenants have proven it to me. Sure it sucks for those with low scores who think their historical problems should be no one else's business. But for those of us who extend credit, their history not only predicts behavior, it also corrects it. Reporting a default causes people to pay money they tried to skip out on...as soon as they need clean credit to borrow from someone else.

Do you have any scientific evidence it predicts behaviors? I suspect the validity of such predictions are no better than just about any other personality test you want to evaluate. Even ones that are designed and administered by psychiatrists and psychologists are not always accurate and are prone to fault. If these tests, made by highly credible people in the field of human behavior, are not always that great then how can we trust numbers given by a credit agency, who has no credibility in studying human behavior, to be accurate? Do they really predict behavior, is it something more akin to the Myers-Briggs, which has absolutely no scientific validity yet so many people place a lot of faith in its ability to predict behavior based on those four assigned letters.

 

[Revoltingest]

Do you have any scientific evidence it predicts behaviors? I suspect the validity of such predictions are no better than just about any other personality test you want to evaluate. Even ones that are designed and administered by psychiatrists and psychologists are not always accurate and are prone to fault. If these tests, made by highly credible people in the field of human behavior, are not always that great then how can we trust numbers given by a credit agency, who has no credibility in studying human behavior, to be accurate? Do they really predict behavior, is it something more akin to the Myers-Briggs, which has absolutely no scientific validity yet so many people place a lot of faith in its to predict behavior based on those four assigned letters.

I do have scientific evidence....vast personal experience with good & bad debtors & tenants.
Credit reports, job references (the real ones with candid opinions) & landlord references
paint a useful picture. Myers-Briggs & other social or pseudo science mumbo jumbo?
Never touch the stuff.
Even businesses have credit ratings, which came from necessity....investors needed to
know how risky potential investments were. Standard & Poor's was created for this.
Wait til you get in the business of renting out property & lending money....we'll share war
stories over a pint or two.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

I do have scientific evidence....vast personal experience with good & bad debtors & tenants.

That is not scientific evidence.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

I haven't been able to find much, yet, but according to the APA credit reports have no bearing on performance appraisal and terminition.
http://www.apa.org/pubs/journals/features/mgr-15-2-106.pdf
Predictors extracted from applicant credit reports, such as number of times late with pay-
ments, had no relationship with either performance appraisal ratings or termination
decisions. The authors therefore recommend caution in using credit report data for
making selection decisions.
Though I haven't found anything about renting yet, what I am finding seems to be leading me down a path that I expected, which is that credit reports are not an accurate prediction of behavior.

 

[Revoltingest]

That is not scientific evidence.

Some things we find to be true, even without ever consulting science.
I've never even considered scientific validation for many good practices.....
- Contractors must be supervised in order to ensure a proper job.
- Alcoholics make poor employees.
- Workers & tenants who make violent threats will cause major trouble, & should be fired/evicted ASAP.

With experience in an industry, you learn things (eventually) which outsiders have the luxury of not accepting.

 

[Revoltingest]

I haven't been able to find much, yet, but according to the APA credit reports have no bearing on performance appraisal and terminition.
http://www.apa.org/pubs/journals/features/mgr-15-2-106.pdf
Predictors extracted from applicant credit reports, such as number of times late with pay-
ments, had no relationship with either performance appraisal ratings or termination
decisions. The authors therefore recommend caution in using credit report data for
making selection decisions.
Though I haven't found anything about renting yet, what I am finding seems to be leading me down a path that I expected, which is that credit reports are not an accurate prediction of behavior.

Credit reports are more than just numerical scores (which I never used).
Just the act of having some run your credit report lowers it.
I looked at payment histories to creditors (the details in the report).
Irregular payments & failure to honor obligations signal future tenant trouble.
Banks find the numerical score predictive.