How Banks Are Enslaving Humans

[Shadow Wolf]

I trust banks. They've never deceived me. They've enabled me to certain properties much sooner when compared to a more basic economy like Vietnam which is where I'm from.

I have no issues with banks.

It's not unusual for banks to take money over "inactivity fees." Banks charge stores to accept plastic, many banks charge to use debit cards as debit cards. Some banks sue and try and foreclose homes, even if there isn't a mortgage on the house. Anywhere they can take money, they take it, and often a good chunk of it.

You think my hands are clean?

You don't have the responsibilities that banks and governments do.

 

[Revoltingest]

You don't have the responsibilities that banks and governments do.

I was speaking more about where me right hand is at the moment.
But I do have responsibilities similar to a bank, eg, I grant credit, people come to me for housing needs, I can affect their credit.

Government is certainly another matter....it can do things, often terrible things, with impunity. And there's no alternative to dealing with it. If I don't like one bank or landlord, I simply use another. Let's say I don't like the IRS....who can I switch to?

 

[suncowiam]

It's not unusual for banks to take money over "inactivity fees." Banks charge stores to accept plastic, many banks charge to use debit cards as debit cards. Some banks sue and try and foreclose homes, even if there isn't a mortgage on the house. Anywhere they can take money, they take it, and often a good chunk of it.

You don't have the responsibilities that banks and governments do.

You got me there, I discontinued my account with BOFA for some fees and continued with a different bank. But bare with me as I accepted responsibility for those fees. I really like my current bank. The interest rates are higher for both checkins/savings and I have no fees concerning any situation. The only problem is that they don't have local outlets for me to get cash, but I do just fine without much cash in pockets any hows.

 

[Wirey]

I was speaking more about where me right hand is at the moment.
But I do have responsibilities similar to a bank, eg, I grant credit, people come to me for housing needs, I can affect their credit.

Government is certainly another matter....it can do things, often terrible things, with impunity. And there's no alternative to dealing with it. If I don't like one bank or landlord, I simply use another. Let's say I don't like the IRS....who can I switch to?

Revenue Canada. I wouldn't recommend it.

 

[dust1n]

Government is certainly another matter....it can do things, often terrible things, with impunity. And there's no alternative to dealing with it. If I don't like one bank or landlord, I simply use another. Let's say I don't like the IRS....who can I switch to?

Vote?

 

[Revoltingest]

Vote?

Voting?
That's just a perfunctory ritual.
I've had better luck doing a reign dance.
(It's not pretty, but it's no less successful at putting my candidates in office.)

 

[Stevicus]

A conspiracy to wage war against the citizenry?
For what purpose?

I'm not saying anything about the reason, or even that there is any conspiracy. All I'm saying is that (in reference to your earlier comment) if the government is the "enemy" of the citizenry, then the banks would be more likely on the government's side than on the side of the common people. I don't see how you can say that banks are our friends while government is the enemy. Either they're both enemies or both friends.
(The reality is that they're probably neither, although at least the citizenry has some electoral control over the government which they don't have with the banks. The government's very survival depends upon it being a "friend" of the people, whereas the banks really have no stake in "friendship.")

Many of us believe the best way (currently) to fight the enemy is by advocacy & voting.
The result is what it is.

And we get the results we deserve, as we were discussing choices and their consequences earlier.

Then you must imagine how lame I feel as a Libertarian.
We've even less power than the testicularly challenged Tea Partiers.
Your low opinion of them implies an even lower opinion of us.....I might <sniff> be moved <sniff> to tears.

No, not really. At least I'll say that Libertarians are generally more consistent to their stated principles than the Tea Party. I wasn't really talking about Libertarians, except in regard to those issues where their views may coincide with the right.

I actually have a higher opinion of Libertarians, although I think Libertarians are to the right what Anarchists are to the left. Not that I'm saying that Libertarianism is the same thing as Anarchism, although they do share one thing in common: Whenever push comes to shove and the big heavyweights from Left and Right get into pitched battle with each other, it's the Libertarians and Anarchists who generally get swept aside or swallowed up. They usually end up as the tragic figures in the big political game, but I still respect them for their convictions. I think they go a bit too far in advocating for privatization, though.

My belief is that a Keynesian mixed economy system under a Constitutional system of liberal democracy is best. However much the government may interfere in the banking system or the private sector should depend solely on what is good for the nation as a whole and as a genuine reflection of the will of the people. That's about as good as it gets, in my opinion.

The concepts of laissez faire capitalism are dangerous to our society because, if such policies were allowed to continue unchecked, it would leave more and more people out in the cold and lead to larger numbers of disgruntled, unemployed masses out there with nothing better to do than attend political rallies led by fiery speakers who will promise to save them all. That could lead to further radicalism, extremism, and potential threats against our democracy and our Constitutional system - from both ends of the spectrum. That's what we really need to guard against.

 

[Revoltingest]

I don't see how you can say that banks are our friends while government is the enemy. Either they're both enemies or both friends.

I've dealt extensively with both banks & government....& one government owned bank.
Banks work hard to serve me, lend me money, store my money, & are friendly with me.
At best, government doesn't care about me, but otherwise it's hostile. It's tried to draft me into a stupid & deadly war, it takes my money (lots), it displays great incompetence when interfering with my business, it's officious, authoritarian, & ungrateful. This extended to the one bank which gave me a bad experience....government (Brit) owned RBS.

(The reality is that they're probably neither, although at least the citizenry has some electoral control over the government which they don't have with the banks. The government's very survival depends upon it being a "friend" of the people, whereas the banks really have no stake in "friendship.")

I've become friends with my bankers, which turned out to be really useful when times were rough. One, with whom I placed several big loans once, helped me get some new loans at a different bank a year ago. Great potential for positive outcomes exists for those prepared to see & use it.
Or to quote L Pasteur....
Chance favors the prepared mind.

And we get the results we deserve, as we were discussing choices and their consequences earlier.

Generally, but it's not fully deterministic...more probabilistic.

I actually have a higher opinion of Libertarians....

This shows poor judgement.
Even I have a low opinion of us.
But it's home.

They usually end up as the tragic figures in the big political game, but I still respect them for their convictions.

It doesn't feel tragic to me.
I accept being an outsider......the lunatic fringe.

The concepts of laissez faire capitalism are dangerous to our society because, if such policies were allowed to continue unchecked, it would leave more and more people out in the cold and lead to larger numbers of disgruntled, unemployed masses out there with nothing better to do than attend political rallies led by fiery speakers who will promise to save them all.

On the other hand, a government powerful enuf to prevent free market capitalism poses great risks if left unchecked.

Too many people think small.....that banks are big & predatory. People think of themselves as victims, & aren't proactive in facing problems. They want government to fix things for them instead of taking personal responsibility. But they often don' t even know what to do. But government's hobbling of banking won't fix this.

 

[dust1n]

Voting?
That's just a perfunctory ritual.
I've had better luck doing a reign dance.
(It's not pretty, but it's no less successful at putting my candidates in office.)

Well, we get the government we deserve then, eh.

Either way, the monetary system is screwed one way or another.

 

[Revoltingest]

Well, we get the government we deserve then, eh.
Either way, the monetary system is screwed one way or another.

It functions.

 

[dust1n]

It functions.

So does government, too, apparently.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

So does government, too, apparently.

Excellent reply. It functions, but not many people are left who think it isn't screwed up.

 

[Stevicus]

I've dealt extensively with both banks & government....& one government owned bank.
Banks work hard to serve me, lend me money, store my money, & are friendly with me.
At best, government doesn't care about me, but otherwise it's hostile. It's tried to draft me into a stupid & deadly war, it takes my money (lots), it displays great incompetence when interfering with my business, it's officious, authoritarian, & ungrateful. This extended to the one bank which gave me a bad experience....government (Brit) owned RBS.

I don't think banks or government truly care about individuals. Whether they're "friendly" or not is meaningless, since private sector "friendliness" is always false and insincere (it gets even more disingenuous the higher you go).

I agree with you about war and the draft, although I don't consider the business community to be innocent bystanders when it comes to formulating government policy.

As far as how much money they take, my experience is that the private sector takes far more of it. Taxes amount to little more than the equivalent of a small utility bill. I spend more on food in a week than I do on taxes in a month. Taxes are next to nothing. It's the private sector taking most of my money, not the government. Even with the allegedly "socialist" Obamacare, I'm paying to a private sector insurance company (3x more than I pay in taxes), not the government. It's the private sector which is full of gougers and takers, not the government.

As a matter of fact, in terms of friendliness, when I got into trouble with the IRS (for not filing a few years), they were far more friendly and decent about it than I've ever seen with any bank. They could have socked it to me if they wanted to, but they were actually pretty nice about it and waived many of the penalties and late fees, much to my surprise. The person I was dealing with said that he prefers a "win-win" outcome - something that no bank would ever consider.

Generally, but it's not fully deterministic...more probabilistic.

Still, it's the system we have, for better or worse. Part of the problem is that many people base their voting choices on "looks" or some other superficial or irrelevant factor.

On the other hand, a government powerful enuf to prevent free market capitalism poses great risks if left unchecked.

By definition, all governments are powerful enough to do that. Whether or not they actually do it is a matter of politics.

You might think that I'm naive about government, but if you seriously believe that the mere existence of free market capitalism can mitigate the risk of an all-powerful government or the consequences of having such a government, I consider that to be even more naive. Free-market capitalism didn't prevent the atrocities of Pinochet, as capitalists aided and abetted those activities (and that's just one example out of many I could cite).

Too many people think small.....that banks are big & predatory.

In many cases, they are.

People think of themselves as victims, & aren't proactive in facing problems. They want government to fix things for them instead of taking personal responsibility. But they often don' t even know what to do. But government's hobbling of banking won't fix this.

I agree in that regulations on banking won't be enough to fix the problems that we're facing. Banking is just one part of the equation.

I also agree in that many people see themselves as victims and may not be thinking clearly or taking any personal responsibility for their actions. However, I don't see that the capitalists really know what to do about this phenomenon either, nor do they even care all that much. (Truth be told, my guess is that most capitalists prefer it this way, with a society full of weak-minded "victims" to take advantage of. Anyone who stands up against it must be discredited as "whiney" and "deluded" in order to take any public attention or blame off of capitalism. That's part of the capitalist agenda to keep Americans weak and dependent.)

There is a way to help people so that they don't think of themselves as victims and to help them face their problems proactively. They can't just sit passively and expect government to fix things; they have to stand up and fix government themselves.

But it also means challenging and attacking the many sacred cows within our society. Capitalism is a sacred cow which too many people are afraid to attack directly, so they instead opt to embrace another sacred cow, which might be referred to as "playing the victim card." Victims are also sacred cows in our society, as you must always give sympathy to a victim and you can never, ever "blame the victim" (very very unPC).

People think of themselves as victims because that's what our society has taught them. Even capitalists who complain about the Big Bad Gov and all the fees and taxes are playing the victim card because they know it sells.

 

[Wirey]

Banks don't enslave humans. Stupid people who only think short term and have to have their Mustang/mansion/vacation/trophies enslave themselves. I forget who said it, but the best advice on earth is "Whatever you have, spend less."

 

[Revoltingest]

I don't think banks or government truly care about individuals. Whether they're "friendly" or not is meaningless, since private sector "friendliness" is always false and insincere (it gets even more disingenuous the higher you go).

That conflicts with my direct experience.
Perhaps I'm just more likable than you are, eh?
For aware & fully functioning independent adults, banks are our friends....or at least useful.

As far as how much money they take, my experience is that the private sector takes far more of it. Taxes amount to little more than the equivalent of a small utility bill. I spend more on food in a week than I do on taxes in a month. Taxes are next to nothing. People who aren't in business just never see this side of government.

Hmmm....your taxes are much less than mine.
You could buy a nice house here for what I pay in some years.

It's the private sector taking most of my money, not the government. Even with the allegedly "socialist" Obamacare, I'm paying to a private sector insurance company (3x more than I pay in taxes), not the government. It's the private sector which is full of gougers and takers, not the government.

So you're cheated out of your money by the private sector.....how?

Free-market capitalism didn't prevent the atrocities of Pinochet.....

And socialism doesn't prevent the atrocities of N Korea. Capitalism & socialism are economic systems, not the enforcers of civil liberties.

(Truth be told, my guess is that most capitalists prefer it this way, with a society full of weak-minded "victims" to take advantage of. Anyone who stands up against it must be discredited as "whiney" and "deluded" in order to take any public attention or blame off of capitalism. That's part of the capitalist agenda to keep Americans weak and dependent.)

I suspect that you don't know many of us capitalists, & rely upon stereotypes.
What businesses do you run?

Capitalism is a sacred cow which too many people are afraid to attack directly....

What's your alternative to the dreaded capitalism?
Where & how well has it worked?

Story time....
I met with some tenants today. One owns an environmental mitigation company. He recently bid on a job to handle contamination from some chemical manufacturers up in Charlevoix. He bid the job very high because it was far away (4 hours north) & he didn't really want to do it. The EPA accepted his bid, but doubled the amount of the bid per house for the same work. Then they greatly increased the number of houses slated for vapor mitigation. Then they increased the bid again. He suggested improvements to their specs which would cut costs & improve performance & life of the products & service. The EPA would hear none of that. Government is full of idiots. Your....er, my tax dollars at work.

 

[Stevicus]

What's your alternative to the dreaded capitalism?

Keynesianism

Where & how well has it worked?

America, from approximately 1940 to 1980

 

[Revoltingest]

Keynesianism
America, from approximately 1940 to 1980

That's merely a policy applied to capitalism, not an alternative to it.

 

[Aquitaine]

HSBC would be the most obvious example. Any bank that launders money for drug cartels and terror groups would do though.

Unfortunately it appear certain elements of both Government and Banking are apathetic towards HSBC's crimes.
Reminds me of this video:

 

[Shadow Wolf]

What's your alternative to the dreaded capitalism?
Where & how well has it worked?

Many native American tribes, including the ones with established cities, economically were much better off than we are.
Technically, every society pre-circa1600 had no capitalism. Pre-industrial revolution, capitalism was an entirely different system. Henry Ford changed capitalism again.
With a further series of changes, I do see society gradually working towards societies that are more based on socialism than capitalism (which has been happening), with gradual changes towards a communist model provided the socialist society lessens the desire for material things.

 

[Aquitaine]

Many native American tribes, including the ones with established cities, economically were much better off than we are.
Technically, every society pre-circa1600 had no capitalism. Pre-industrial revolution, capitalism was an entirely different system. Henry Ford changed capitalism again.
With a further series of changes, I do see society gradually working towards societies that are more based on socialism than capitalism (which has been happening), with gradual changes towards a communist model provided the socialist society lessens the desire for material things.

Communism's been tried all over the world, and it failed.