How can atheists explain precognitive dreams?

[sovietchild]

Simply. Your dream was not a precognitive dream. You had one detail right, the plane type, nothing more. You then found the closest event that you can match to your dream and called it a day.

The above is how most of these so-called dream come down to. Ignoring the misses which can not be modified into hits.

I'm sorry but how is only 1 detail?

The plane crashed into skyscraper after taking off and it was flying low. Reality, plane crashed into Mount Salak shorty after taking off and it was flying way too low. In my dream pilot was distracted. The reality the pilot was distracted. In my dream I thought to my self the pilot was stupid. In reality it was the pilot's error. In my dream I walked out of the plane as if there was nothing wrong with me. In reality I was not on the plane.

I also had other dreams that came true.

 

[sovietchild]

Even if there are genuine precognitive dreams, SovietChild, it would be distastefully sloppy logic to conclude that they demonstrated or proved the existence of a god. That's because it is possible that they could have a wholly natural explanation which is currently unknown to our sciences for any of several reasons.

Please note, SovietChild, I do not dispute that a relatively few dreams -- perhaps even yours -- could be genuinely precognitive. That is a possibility which cannot be soundly ruled out. I do, however, disagree with the appallingly illogical conclusion that such dreams necessitate the existence of deity.

Down that path lies madness.

Somebody gives you those dreams. Right?

“It is He who takes your souls by night…” (Quran, 6:60) Or: “Allah takes the souls when they die and also those that have not died He takes in their sleep; He keeps those whose deaths have been decreed and sends back the rest…” (Quran, 39:42)

 

[George-ananda]

That story was told by someone here on RF. Try @George-ananda
Tom

@Sunstone I am afraid that story didn't come from me but I do believe in precognition. I have come to understand time and the universe are things I increasingly don't understand with my rational mind. You can certainly find dramatic stories out there and I have heard them. Also I believe precognition is a weak but real human ability and has been statistically shown in experimental conditions.

Got to love this universe!

 

[Segev Moran]

I quite agree with your point, Fantome, you wicked genius,

Same here

but I should like to note that your point does encounter a slight difficulty when applied as an explanation to some -- but not most -- allegedly precognitive dreams. There are a few accounts of precognitive dreams that it would be implausible to explain as coincidences, mostly because they are way too detailed.

not here though

I'll offer one example In the 1800s, a Zen monk dreamed that he was going to die on a certain date at a certain time. He was so convinced by something about his dream that it was accurate, that he mailed out 100 postcards to various people announcing that he would die on that date and at that time. He then spent his remaining days visiting his closest friends. The day and time came and -- precisely on schedule -- he died.

Sounds very interesting.
I Would love to get a more detailed story about this incident.
What I am missing here for example?:
Is the way this man died.
Who are those 100 people who got the postcard and is there an actual postcard that was preserved? ( I can assume one of the 100 people would find it as something worth keeping )
What was the day and time?
How accurate was it?

I Can assume that if indeed it will be proven without a doubt that indeed this man predicted he's own death to the exact of a day, and there will be no doubt he didn't temper his own life to match that outcome, it will probably be something that will cause "waves" around the globe even today.

Now to explain that away as a coincidence seems implausible. If one wishes to dismiss it, then it is far easier to dismiss it as a self-fulfilling prophecy. i.e. the monk died because he so strongly expected to die. However, coincidence seems highly unlikely

I Can find several explanations that are possible:

He killed himself?
He didn't really die that day, and people "remember" it as that way?
this story is only an urban myth?

there can be many explanations.

and my attempts to find it via the internet have been unsuccessful.

Same here.

 

[Shad]

I'm sorry but how is only 1 detail?

The plane crashed into skyscraper after taking off and it was flying low. Reality, plane crashed into Mount Salak shorty after taking off and it was flying way too low.

Thus not the same.

In my dream pilot was distracted. The reality the pilot was distracted

The report states a miscalculation and the pilots were talking to each other not looking out a window.

In my dream I thought to my self the pilot was stupid. In reality it was the pilot's error. In my dream I walked out of the plane as if there was nothing wrong with me.

Which is one of the most common causes of plane crashes and the type of error was not the same.

I also had other dreams that came true.

Sure you did after you ignore detail mismatches while reduce the dream and event to the vaguest terms possible.

 

[Kartari]

Hi sovietchild,

“The pens have been lifted and the pages have dried” Prophet Muhammad once said. How can atheists explain precognitive dreams?...

Technically speaking, an atheist is someone who disbelieves in god(s). An atheist does not necessarily disbelieve in precognitive dreaming. One can be an atheist and also either believe or disbelieve in precognitive dreaming without being contradictory in either case.

I'm pretty sure most of us had at list once a precognitive dream, it could be about your self or somebody else.

I believe I have, in fact. I'm among those atheists who believe precognition can be real.

About 5 years ago I believe I had a dream about Superjet 100 crash. I was on the plane. The plane took off and it was flying low, the captain was not looking straight and was talking on his radio while looking at his right side window, when looked straight there was a tall skyscraper coming our way, as he tried to pull up it was too late. The plane hit the skyscraper. As I walking out of the plane, I look at the captain and said to my self "stupid pilot". Few month later after I had that dream, SSJ-100 aircraft crashed on a demonstration flight operating from Halim Perdanakusuma Airport, Jakarta, Indonesia. The final report, released 18 December 2012, indicated that the accident was caused by crew members ignoring terrain warnings that they had incorrectly attributed to a database problem. The crew had turned off the terrain warning system and were unaware that they were operating in close proximity to mountains. The crew, including the captain, were engaging in conversation with potential customers as the aircraft impacted the ground

I am not entirely familiar with the details surrounding this particular crash offhand, but I'm willing to believe it is possible this was actually a precognitive dream. At least for the sake of argument.

If atheist disbelieve in predestination, then how can they explain precognitive dreams?

Assuming precognitive dreaming is a real phenomenon, why couldn't it be a natural phenomenon? Perhaps our brains have the natural capacity to perceive events across time, as if time were not linear but rather a dimension that could be (figuratively speaking) "traversed" in some manner.

Somebody gives you those dreams. Right?

“It is He who takes your souls by night…” (Quran, 6:60) Or: “Allah takes the souls when they die and also those that have not died He takes in their sleep; He keeps those whose deaths have been decreed and sends back the rest…” (Quran, 39:42)

Why is it required for us to conclude that "someone" must give us precognitive dreams? Why can't it simply be a natural phenomenon?

 

[idav]

I also had other dreams that came true.

Me too, the brain is a quite fascinating. Brains especially good at finding answers in subconscious states. I doubt it has anything to do with any particular answer to cosmology. There are naturalistic answers, as in the brain is simply capable without supernatural powers having to exist.

 

[gnomon]

What does this question have to do with atheism?

 

[gnomon]

I'll provide the only honest answer.......not at all.

 

[Willamena]

If atheist disbelieve in predestination, then how can they explain precognitive dreams?

Usually, they turn to the History Channel.

 

[CogentPhilosopher]

How can atheists explain precognitive dreams?

They don't need to really be explained due to not haven to been proven to exist as far as I know. But there are plenty of atheists that do believe in precognitive dreams, me being one at one point, and will usually explain it with supernatural beliefs or psuedoscience.

Not all atheist are naturalist.

I'm pretty sure most of us had at list once a precognitive dream, it could be about your self or somebody else.

It would be more unusual if nobody ever had any kind of dream that could not be construed as precognitive by someone with confirmation bias.

Not to mention that psychological studies shown that our memories are mallable and often can change over time to fit our own narratives, which is why many good meaning people have sent innocent people to prisons with eye witness testimony. Dreams where she to be particularly mallable.

About 5 years ago I believe I had a dream about Superjet 100 crash. I was on the plane. The plane took off and it was flying low, the captain was not looking straight and was talking on his radio while looking at his right side window, when looked straight there was a tall skyscraper coming our way, as he tried to pull up it was too late. The plane hit the skyscraper. As I walking out of the plane, I look at the captain and said to my self "stupid pilot". Few month later after I had that dream, SSJ-100 aircraft crashed on a demonstration flight operating from Halim Perdanakusuma Airport, Jakarta, Indonesia. The final report, released 18 December 2012, indicated that the accident was caused by crew members ignoring terrain warnings that they had incorrectly attributed to a database problem. The crew had turned off the terrain warning system and were unaware that they were operating in close proximity to mountains. The crew, including the captain, were engaging in conversation with potential customers as the aircraft impacted the ground.

I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt and assume for the sake of argument that you sincerely remember this. If that is true do you ever remember describing it as such before the crash happened?

If atheist disbelieve in predestination, then how can they explain precognitive dreams?

Not all atheists do. And in fact depending on how you define predestination, most naturalist do. For example I think that since we live in a mechanicist universe that there is only one possible future that is already set. Time is just another dimension like space. And we do not need to explain something that is unproven. And even if it where proven and for whatever reason we could not explain it. That would not make your explanation anymore right than the Wiccan one or Choate one.

 

[sovietchild]

I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt and assume for the sake of argument that you sincerely remember this. If that is true do you ever remember describing it as such before the crash happened?

No, I don't think I told anyone about the dream. Believe it or not, I also had a dream I believe was about Somali plane Daallo Airlines passenger sucked out of jet was a suicide bomber, claim investigators | Daily Mail Online In my dream I was on the back of the plane and something blow up, there was a hole and we were going down.

 

[Guy Threepwood]

“The pens have been lifted and the pages have dried” Prophet Muhammad once said. How can atheists explain precognitive dreams? I'm pretty sure most of us had at list once a precognitive dream, it could be about your self or somebody else.

About 5 years ago I believe I had a dream about Superjet 100 crash. I was on the plane. The plane took off and it was flying low, the captain was not looking straight and was talking on his radio while looking at his right side window, when looked straight there was a tall skyscraper coming our way, as he tried to pull up it was too late. The plane hit the skyscraper. As I walking out of the plane, I look at the captain and said to my self "stupid pilot". Few month later after I had that dream, SSJ-100 aircraft crashed on a demonstration flight operating from Halim Perdanakusuma Airport, Jakarta, Indonesia. The final report, released 18 December 2012, indicated that the accident was caused by crew members ignoring terrain warnings that they had incorrectly attributed to a database problem. The crew had turned off the terrain warning system and were unaware that they were operating in close proximity to mountains. The crew, including the captain, were engaging in conversation with potential customers as the aircraft impacted the ground.

If atheist disbelieve in predestination, then how can they explain precognitive dreams?

Everybody has these dreams, one or two we can write off as chance.

The simplest explanation is always the most tempting.. but there is a reason most people become more spiritual with age and experience.

When a die keeps rolling a six, we eventually realize that it's loaded.

 

[lewisnotmiller]

How can atheists explain precognitive dreams? I'm pretty sure most of us had at list once a precognitive dream, it could be about your self or somebody else.

Nup.

If atheist disbelieve in predestination, then how can they explain precognitive dreams?

Why the need to explain everything?
I'm comfortable with the fact that I am ignorant of many things, and my attempts to push back the veil will only be partially successful. I can make something up if you prefer.

 

[CogentPhilosopher]

No, I don't think I told anyone about the dream. Believe it or not, I also had a dream I believe was about Somali plane Daallo Airlines passenger sucked out of jet was a suicide bomber, claim investigators | Daily Mail Online In my dream I was on the back of the plane and something blow up, there was a hole and we were going down.

I'm really saddened that this is the only part that you choose to address.

 

[viole]

“The pens have been lifted and the pages have dried” Prophet Muhammad once said. How can atheists explain precognitive dreams? I'm pretty sure most of us had at list once a precognitive dream, it could be about your self or somebody else.

About 5 years ago I believe I had a dream about Superjet 100 crash. I was on the plane. The plane took off and it was flying low, the captain was not looking straight and was talking on his radio while looking at his right side window, when looked straight there was a tall skyscraper coming our way, as he tried to pull up it was too late. The plane hit the skyscraper. As I walking out of the plane, I look at the captain and said to my self "stupid pilot". Few month later after I had that dream, SSJ-100 aircraft crashed on a demonstration flight operating from Halim Perdanakusuma Airport, Jakarta, Indonesia. The final report, released 18 December 2012, indicated that the accident was caused by crew members ignoring terrain warnings that they had incorrectly attributed to a database problem. The crew had turned off the terrain warning system and were unaware that they were operating in close proximity to mountains. The crew, including the captain, were engaging in conversation with potential customers as the aircraft impacted the ground.

If atheist disbelieve in predestination, then how can they explain precognitive dreams?

That is ESP. Does not require to be a theist to believe in divining the future. Therefore, you can be an atheist and believe in precognitive dreams.

Don't you have more useful dream? You know, like divining the DJ index for the next couple of years. Lottery numbers would also do.

Ciao

- viole

 

[Jeremiahcp]

“The pens have been lifted and the pages have dried” Prophet Muhammad once said. How can atheists explain precognitive dreams? I'm pretty sure most of us had at list once a precognitive dream, it could be about your self or somebody else.

About 5 years ago I believe I had a dream about Superjet 100 crash. I was on the plane. The plane took off and it was flying low, the captain was not looking straight and was talking on his radio while looking at his right side window, when looked straight there was a tall skyscraper coming our way, as he tried to pull up it was too late. The plane hit the skyscraper. As I walking out of the plane, I look at the captain and said to my self "stupid pilot". Few month later after I had that dream, SSJ-100 aircraft crashed on a demonstration flight operating from Halim Perdanakusuma Airport, Jakarta, Indonesia. The final report, released 18 December 2012, indicated that the accident was caused by crew members ignoring terrain warnings that they had incorrectly attributed to a database problem. The crew had turned off the terrain warning system and were unaware that they were operating in close proximity to mountains. The crew, including the captain, were engaging in conversation with potential customers as the aircraft impacted the ground.

If atheist disbelieve in predestination, then how can they explain precognitive dreams?

I typically don't go around wasting my time trying to explain other people's nonsense.

 

[sovietchild]

I'm really saddened that this is the only part that you choose to address.

Honestly, I'm not really an expert at this "dream" thing. Ask me to build you a spreadsheet and a dashboard and I will, but when it comes to dreaming about the future events I will just say its Allah who gives you those dreams through angels. Animals have dreams too, what are the chances they have precognitive dreams also?

 

[Nakosis]

If atheist disbelieve in predestination, then how can they explain precognitive dreams?

I sometimes feel that something can be willed into existence by man. Not by belief alone of course but by effort, action, choices made. Dreams sometimes cause us to make choices.

Basically the same idea of predestination but without the need for God in the picture. Non of it is scientific, I just play with the idea sometimes. Point being I suppose that not all explanations for something require a deity to be present.

You want to believe the explanation of this person, Muhammad who may be a fictional creation. Not saying he is just we can't really prove his existence. My question is why?

You have your experience, and it maybe feels a little creepy, I know, but why accept this explanation over others without testing it and other possible explanations?

You believe something because it makes sense to something you've experienced yourself. This doesn't mean it is the correct or only explanation.

Can you prove the source was Allah? If you can, great, we can all go home now. If not, shouldn't we keep questioning it?

 

[CogentPhilosopher]

Honestly, I'm not really an expert at this "dream" thing. Ask me to build you a spreadsheet and a dashboard and I will, but when it comes to dreaming about the future events I will just say its Allah who gives you those dreams through angels. Animals have dreams too, what are the chances they have precognitive dreams also?

So your basically saying: "I don't know anything about the subject so I'm going to use my ignorance on it to believe whatever I want about it."

I hope this is not the case, but you seem to be indicating that it is.