How can Christians not condemn homosexual behavior?

[Kathryn]

edit:

at the end of the day...the court of public opinion is what matters

Maybe within your belief system. However, in my belief system, what matters at the end of the day is how we stand before our Maker and account for our deeds during our life on earth.

and what concerns me most are the children who are put in a position that would cause them to feel shameful about their very being

This concerns me a great deal also, which is why I am in favor of equal rights for same sex couples, as well as adoption placements without discrimination based on marital status or sexual orientation.

you think being a homosexual is a moral issue...and that "opinion" that the general public holds weighs heavy on some...to the point of depression and worse.

Hold up. I'll tell you what I think - please don't you tell me what I think.

I think that sex outside of marriage is a moral issue. And since I am not opposed to legal marriage for gay couples, why do you care what my own private opinion is? I am supportive of equal rights for gays. Is that not enough?

i wonder though, if your child had this inclination...'cause we aren't talking about sex out side of marriage, as one's sexuality is not defined by who they are having sex with...would you try to "straighten" them out?

Well, this is a personal question, and I am the mother of five kids, so of course this question has crossed my own mind.

You may not be talking about sex outside of marriage, but I am. I do not allow my kids to come to my house and spend the night in the same bed with someone they are not married to. Period. If they are married, they can sleep in the same bed. Gay, straight, doesn't matter.

If I go to their house, I will live under their rules.

Would I "try to straighten out" a child of mine who told me they were gay? Absolutely not. I don't interfere in the moral decisions of adults - any adults - as long as they are not infringing on the rights of others.

 

[MysticSang'ha]

Kathryn...You go, girl. :foryou:

 

[Road Warrior]

Imagine how Muslims feel when Christians constantly tell them something similar.

Really? How do you know what I have or have not told anyone, Muslim or Christian?....or are you just broadbrushing a group you dislike?

Seriously, do you really believe that the way to go?

Are there jerks who bad mouth other religions? Yes. Worse, some people are highly prejudicial, even racist, yet hide behind a mask of religious sanctity. No religion, people, nation or any other group has a monopoly this type of behavior, so implying or stating that one does is BS.

 

[waitasec]

i'm not surprised with your response not one bit...
that is a good thing

Would I "try to straighten out" a child of mine who told me they were gay? Absolutely not. I don't interfere in the moral decisions of adults - any adults - as long as they are not infringing on the rights of others.

you don't interfere with adults but
suppose you have a teenage daughter that approaches you and says
"mom, i'm attracted to other girls...i've never acted out on it but i find myself feeling this way...is there something wrong with me?"

what would you say?


edit:
just to clarify,
you are not the person i want to be asking this question to, as i do believe you do not represent the majority of christian believers who would try to "straighten" their child out.

 

[waitasec]

Yup. It is.

i don't think so. there are many many people who are being persecuted for this thing that shouldn't be a big deal but is for some silly reason like; my god doesn't approve of it...

 

[blackout]

Paul condemns ALL sex outside of marriage between a man and a woman throughout all of his writings. Most Christians know this.

Would this be legal marriage?
Religious marriage?
Marriage where the wife is the property of the husband marriage?

 

[blackout]

Is it a marriage if a couple has been together for 20 years?
(without a marriage contract. without a ceremonial affair.)
Built a life together and all that?
(actually DONE the thing)

15 years?
10 years?
5?

 

[blackout]

Is it a marriage if the legally married couple chooses a more 'open' lifestyle?
(ie, is not monogamous by agreement)

 

[blackout]

Does a Handfasting count?

 

[Kathryn]

Would this be legal marriage?
Religious marriage?
Marriage where the wife is the property of the husband marriage?

Paul is only addressing Christians in his letters.

 

[blackout]

Paul is only addressing Christians in his letters.

These questions I had addressed directly in regards to Paul's mandate for marriage (to christians)-
of course, as marriage was understood/practiced AT THAT TIME.

Would this be legal marriage?
Religious marriage?
Marriage where the wife is the property of the husband marriage?

Beyond christians then, how do you address non-christian couples
who might be staying overnight as guests in your home?
(since Paul does not)

What qualifies for them, as 'married' status, enough that they might sleep together in the same bed, in your home?
Or does it not matter at all, as they are not bound by christian standards. And how did you come to these ... conclusions.

 

[Kathryn]

These questions I had addressed directly in regards to Paul's mandate for marriage (to christians)-
of course, as marriage was understood/practiced AT THAT TIME.
Beyond christians then, how do you address non-christian couples
who might be staying overnight as guests in your home?
(since Paul does not)

What qualifies for them, as 'married' status, enough that they might sleep together in the same bed, in your home?
Or does it not matter at all, as they are not bound by christian standards. And how did you come to these ... conclusions.

I have a brother who is in a common law relationship. I love him and also really like his companion - I think they have a very good relationship.

I visit them in their home. He has never visited me in my home (he lives in another region of the country and though I've invited him, the cost for him to visit is prohibitive). So, to be honest, I haven't had to deal with that particular situation.

I don't believe that he or his companion are professing Christians. I see no evidence in their conversation, the contents of their home, or any other aspect of their lives. That doesn't mean they aren't Christians - it's just that if they are, they certainly don't openly claim to be. And that's their own business - I don't fault them or judge them in it.

I say that to point out that my husband and I simply do not have many friends or family members who aren't married adults. But if a couple who knows us well enough to be spending the night in our home profess to be Christians, but aren't married and want to sleep together, I'd just have to say no unless it was some sort of emergency situation. That would change things.

We have multiple guest bedrooms so space wouldn't likely be a problem.

 

[blackout]

I have a brother who is in a common law relationship. I love him and also really like his companion - I think they have a very good relationship.

I visit them in their home. He has never visited me in my home (he lives in another region of the country and though I've invited him, the cost for him to visit is prohibitive). So, to be honest, I haven't had to deal with that particular situation.

I don't believe that he or his companion are professing Christians. I see no evidence in their conversation, the contents of their home, or any other aspect of their lives. That doesn't mean they aren't Christians - it's just that if they are, they certainly don't openly claim to be. And that's their own business - I don't fault them or judge them in it.

I say that to point out that my husband and I simply do not have many friends or family members who aren't married adults. But if a couple who knows us well enough to be spending the night in our home profess to be Christians, but aren't married and want to sleep together, I'd just have to say no unless it was some sort of emergency situation. That would change things.

We have multiple guest bedrooms so space wouldn't likely be a problem.

You mean, aren't married legally, I'm guessing.

What about hypothetical non-christian guests then?
How would you decide?

 

[sojourner]

i don't think so. there are many many people who are being persecuted for this thing that shouldn't be a big deal but is for some silly reason like; my god doesn't approve of it...

In my mind it is much ado about nothing, as far as the morality of same-sex attraction or marriage goes. What concerns me greatly is the systematic dehumanization of those who identify as homosexual.

 

[Kathryn]

You mean, aren't married legally, I'm guessing.

What about hypothetical non-christian guests then?
How would you decide?

I already explained that in my previous post. But I'll clarify.

First of all, we don't even HAVE many overnight guests in our home. The vast majority of our overnight guests are immediate family.

However, my son did bring his fiancee home for a visit. They live in Korea - he lives on the military installation and she lives with her family. I have no illusions - I'm sure they are sleeping together regularly since they go on vacations together all the time. However, when they were at our house, they slept in separate bedrooms.

If it was an emergency situation, as I stated earlier, I wouldn't "lay down the law" with consenting adults. However, if non Christian guests who were unmarried stayed in my house as voluntary guests, I would put them in separate bedrooms. Now - I'm not going to be a vigilante and stand guard outside their door to be sure they don't sneak down the hall. But just as they want respect from me - I expect them to respect the rules of our house.

Both my sons have brought girlfriends home for overnight visits, and the girls have stayed in a separate room. Like I said, they may have snuck into each other's rooms but I wouldn't know that, because they didn't put it in my face - out of respect for me.

 

[waitasec]

In my mind it is much ado about nothing, as far as the morality of same-sex attraction or marriage goes. What concerns me greatly is the systematic dehumanization of those who identify as homosexual.

why do you suppose there is a dehumanizing of those who identify as homosexual from the religious community?

would it not be for passages like romans 1:18-32

there are christians who do not want to be guilty by association...therefore they wouldn't touch the alternative with a 10 foot pole.
i would also say this stance represents the majority of christians...

 

[blackout]

I already explained that in my previous post. But I'll clarify.

First of all, we don't even HAVE many overnight guests in our home. The vast majority of our overnight guests are immediate family.

However, my son did bring his fiancee home for a visit. They live in Korea - he lives on the military installation and she lives with her family. I have no illusions - I'm sure they are sleeping together regularly since they go on vacations together all the time. However, when they were at our house, they slept in separate bedrooms.

If it was an emergency situation, as I stated earlier, I wouldn't "lay down the law" with consenting adults. However, if non Christian guests who were unmarried stayed in my house as voluntary guests, I would put them in separate bedrooms. Now - I'm not going to be a vigilante and stand guard outside their door to be sure they don't sneak down the hall. But just as they want respect from me - I expect them to respect the rules of our house.

Both my sons have brought girlfriends home for overnight visits, and the girls have stayed in a separate room. Like I said, they may have snuck into each other's rooms but I wouldn't know that, because they didn't put it in my face - out of respect for me.

But as Paul didn't speak to non-christians,
where do you come to this standard?

Or is it simply your own thing.

And again, by unmarried, you mean legally unmarried.


In most states gays cannot be legally married.
This leaves committed
gay life partners out of the (marital recognition) loop by convenient default then.
Even if they have had a non legal ceremony with friends and family.

 

[4consideration]

don't forget, you interjected into my discourse with Nakosis...
chill out.

romans 1
18 The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of people, who suppress the truth by their wickedness, ...

26 Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural sexual relations for unnatural ones. 27 In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed shameful acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their error.

are you going to tell me when preachers blame homosexuals for natural disasters, like katrina, it's not because of this?.

who wants to be guilty by association in the eyes of god almighty? those christians that are allowing or condoning same sex marriages are among those who "suppress the truth by their wickedness"
this is why religious homophobes are subjecting homosexuals to their religious beliefs.

Waitasec, if I hurt your feelings I apologize. It seems I could have made my point in a kinder way. I will try again.

I remember that I interjected in your discussion with Nakosis. I believe that I did it in an appropriate way, and within the context of what you were discussing. We do all interject in some way -- or the threads would mostly just be two party conversations. I thought you were avoiding answering my point and shifting to a discussion of the holy spirit -- instead of the error that I mentioned I thought to be occurring.

i understand that. i just want to understand why would one call their self self a christian if they are not upholding original christian values...why not start a movement called "the new and improved christian movement' and edit out the questionable doctrine

There is no need to edit out parts of stories or letters. IMO the error here is in taking bits and pieces of stories/letters and mistaking that for the establishment of doctrine.

but didn't the holy spirit have an idea that this very mistake would occur?

the holy spirit gets the credit for giving us the truth but goes missing when it's time for interpreting it.
an author of a book makes sure their readers are getting what is intentionally meant to be understood...why can't the holy spirit work the same way?
when it rains we are aware of the rain and are in agreement of what that means...god, what god wants and what god is, is not understood that way.

I really didn't get where you were coming from. To me, the simplest solution to an error in interpretation is to consider the context and correct the understanding. If a person believes the Bible to be divinely inspired, that does not mean that person is required to abdicate all responsibilty in applying thought, understanding and love to their own interpretation of it. There may be some people that approach the Bible in a very literal way. But, I don't think it applies to the majority of Christians.

I don't have any concrete proof of this, but I would guess that there is no (or almost no) book that is not subject to some sort of mis-interpretation by someone. I have no expectation that any religious text would reasonably be expected to be an exception to that tendency.

In my observation, there are MANY Christians that hold a loving perspective toward others. The ones that get media attention are the ones that say something sensational -- really bone-headed.

We chose our own perspective of life's events, and the interpretation we place on them. If some "preachers" choose a perspective of judgement, and use some Bible passage to justify their own personal judgement -- I am not be inclined to listen to them. I think there are plenty that think like me in this regard, and have indicated as such on this thread.

 

[sojourner]

why do you suppose there is a dehumanizing of those who identify as homosexual from the religious community?

would it not be for passages like romans 1:18-32

Probably.

there are christians who do not want to be guilty by association...therefore they wouldn't touch the alternative with a 10 foot pole.
i would also say this stance represents the majority of christians...

So? That doesn't make them right. Why are you arguing with me? I've always spoken out against this kind of cheap interpretation.

 

[Me Myself]

i would also say this stance represents the majority of christians...

"Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it."

The road of the most compassion has always been the most narrow. ""Christian"" or not, only very little people travel it.