How can the Jew reject, Jesus, Muhammad, Bab and Baha'u'llah?

[Trailblazer]

The Trinity is talked about in detail in the Bible. God is described in the Bible as being in distinct persons. The Distinction Of The Holy Spirit From The Father And From His Son, Jesus Christ

That is what you have interpreted the Bible to mean, but it is not the way I interpret the Bible.

 

[Skywalker]

That is what you have interpreted the Bible to mean, but it is not the way I interpret the Bible.

Do you interpret the Bible through the NIV or KJV?

 

[Skywalker]

Are you aware that all Christians do not believe in the Trinity? It is a Christian doctrine, it is not in the Bible.

I believe that the Revelation of Baha'u'llah abrogated the Dispensations gone before it, including the Bible Dispensation.

Dispensation

1. the divine ordering of the affairs of the world.
2. an appointment, arrangement, or favor, as by God.
3. a divinely appointed order or age:

e.g. the old Mosaic, or Jewish, dispensation; the new gospel, or Christian, dispensation.

Definition of dispensation | Dictionary.com

I believe that by an arrangement of God the divine ordering of the affairs of the world is only according to one religion at a time. Thus each religion only applies to the age (dispensation) in which it is revealed.

However, no religion is ever abrogated, because God's Word cannot be abrogated.

How can all religions be true? I believe that Judaism is the only religion that is from God and Christianity is more of a relationship with God. If there are other ways to God why did Jesus die for our sins? The Lies of Baha'i -by David J. Stewart

All Religions One

To begin with, they teach that all religions are one in the same. Here what you'll find at www.bahai.org...

"All divine Revelations come from the same Source; thus, the religions identified with them are in essence one. They differ in the measure of their teachings and particularly in their social laws and principles, appropriate to the times in which they appeared. The successive divine Revelations over the centuries have provided the spiritual force and laws for the advancement of civilization. Abraham, Krishna, Zoroaster, Moses, Buddha, Jesus, and Muhammad were all divine Messengers; the Báb and Baha'u'llah are the most recent. The coming of Baha'u'llah represents the fulfillment of this centuries’ long process of progressive revelation and of the expectations inspired by previous divine Messengers for the ultimate unity of peoples and peace among nations. -SOURCE

Buddha? Zoroaster? Krishna?...divine messengers? You left out Muhammad. The Word of God declares that salvation can ONLY be found through Jesus Christ. Acts 4:10-12 clearly teaches that there is NO OTHER NAME by which we can be saved,"...that by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom ye crucified, whom God raised from the dead, even by him doth this man stand here before you whole. This is the stone which was set at nought of you builders, which is become the head of the corner. Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved." Not one of the men recognized as "divine messengers" by the Baha'is taught that Jesus was the ONLY Way to heaven.

Also please notice what the ultimate goal of the Baha'i faith is at the end of the quote given above..."the ultimate unity of peoples and peace among nations." Although that goal "sounds" mighty noble, is it in agreement with the Word of God? Let's see, the Word of God teaches..."Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness? And what concord hath Christ with Belial? or what part hath he that believeth with an infidel? And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people. Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you" -2nd Corinthians 6:14-17.

 

[Trailblazer]

Do you interpret the Bible through the NIV or KJV?

I usually refer to the KJV.

 

[Trailblazer]

How can all religions be true? I believe that Judaism is the only religion that is from God and Christianity is more of a relationship with God.

All the major religions were revealed by the one true God and that is why they are all true.

“The Purpose of the one true God, exalted be His glory, in revealing Himself unto men is to lay bare those gems that lie hidden within the mine of their true and inmost selves. That the divers communions of the earth, and the manifold systems of religious belief, should never be allowed to foster the feelings of animosity among men, is, in this Day, of the essence of the Faith of God and His Religion. These principles and laws, these firmly-established and mighty systems, have proceeded from one Source, and are the rays of one Light. That they differ one from another is to be attributed to the varying requirements of the ages in which they were promulgated.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 287-288

If there are other ways to God why did Jesus die for our sins? The Lies of Baha'i -by David J. Stewart

That website was a pathetic attempt of attacking the Baha'i Faith in an attempt to claim that Christianity is the only true religion and Jesus is the only way. Most of what he said is not even true; it is a distortion of what Baha'is believe.

Jesus did die for our sins but there is more to religion than that. That is what most Christians do not understand. Life goes on AFTER Jesus dies for our sins. There is still more work for humans to do other than being saved and waiting to go to heaven.

 

[Skywalker]

All the major religions were revealed by the one true God and that is why they are all true.

“The Purpose of the one true God, exalted be His glory, in revealing Himself unto men is to lay bare those gems that lie hidden within the mine of their true and inmost selves. That the divers communions of the earth, and the manifold systems of religious belief, should never be allowed to foster the feelings of animosity among men, is, in this Day, of the essence of the Faith of God and His Religion. These principles and laws, these firmly-established and mighty systems, have proceeded from one Source, and are the rays of one Light. That they differ one from another is to be attributed to the varying requirements of the ages in which they were promulgated.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 287-288

That website was a pathetic attempt of attacking the Baha'i Faith in an attempt to claim that Christianity is the only true religion and Jesus is the only way. Most of what he said is not even true; it is a distortion of what Baha'is believe.

Jesus did die for our sins but there is more to religion than that. That is what most Christians do not understand. Life goes on AFTER Jesus dies for our sins. There is still more work for humans to do other than being saved and waiting to go to heaven.

Contrary to what is being taught in many public schools, truth is not relative but absolute. If something is true, it's true for all people, at all times, at all places. All truth claims are absolute, narrow, and exclusive. Just think about the claim "everything is true." That's an absolute, narrow, and exclusive claim. It excludes its opposite (i.e., it claims that the statement "everything is not true" is wrong). In fact, all truths exclude their opposites. Even religious truths.

 

[Skywalker]

I usually refer to the KJV.

The King James Bible supports Jesus being God. Daniel 3:25 in the KJV says, "He answered and said, Lo, I see four men loose, walking in the midst of the fire, and they have no hurt; and the form of the fourth is like the Son of God." The NIV says a son of the gods, the NRSV says a god, and the NAB says a son of God.

 

[CG Didymus]

Do you think preterism is unbibical? I think it goes against Revelation reading like a book of warnings.

I would hope that the Book of Revelation is a book of warnings. Yet, the supposed return of Christ didn't fulfill everything listed in the prophecies and not all of the warnings have happened. I have asked Baha'is several times if the Messiah comes after all the bad stuff of Revelation or right in the middle and all the bad stuff continues after he is dead and gone.

 

[CG Didymus]

As long as you keep using the Bible to try to determine who is right you will remain confused, because the Bible can be used to try to prove any of these religions are right, and there you are just standing at the side of the road, forever.

Yet Tony said that Baha'is say that the Bible is a "sure" guide? But I can see what you're saying... and it's absolutely true if we dump the Bible and only listen to what Baha'u'llah, we will not be confused... and that is because there is several contradictions and several unfulfilled prophecies. Funny that you spelled out exactly what the NT says about who the anti-Christ is, yet you don't go by the Bible on what it says about who and what the Jewish Messiah will be and do. Jesus nor Baha'u'llah fulfilled all of those things.

 

[Skywalker]

I would hope that the Book of Revelation is a book of warnings. Yet, the supposed return of Christ didn't fulfill everything listed in the prophecies and not all of the warnings have happened. I have asked Baha'is several times if the Messiah comes after all the bad stuff of Revelation or right in the middle and all the bad stuff continues after he is dead and gone.

Jesus was the man of sorrows who was wounded for our transgressions. Psalm 2:7 says that the Messiah is the Son of God. Daniel 9:24-26 says that the Messiah died before destruction of the sanctuary. Malachi 1: 3 mentions John the Baptist, the messenger of Jesus sent before him.

 

[CG Didymus]

No, because I said: Who is to say one meaning is correct and the others are incorrect? Who was ever given authority by God to interpret the texts?

Well, since you mentioned "confused"... Yes, some things written in the NT can be confusing and need some interpretation. And Christians over the years have tried to come up with some reasonable interpretations. But, other things are very obviously said in the NT. They write that this is what Jesus said and this is what Jesus did. Then, in the epistles, various writers gave their understanding and interpretation. Christians made all those things the "Word of God" truth when they canonized them. Baha'is go against things that are clearly stated in the NT. And I have no problem with that, so do I. That's why I'm not a Christian. But Baha'is don't believe those things, like Satan being real and the resurrection etc., so they go against what is said and try to make anything they don't like as being metaphorical. Really? Jesus was tempted by a metaphorical evil spirit being, which was really only his lower nature? And really, verse after verse about Jesus appearing to his disciples, but that was only metaphorical? Baha'is don't only reject the Christian interpretations of the NT and Bible, they reject what the Bible presents as being true, historical events. And I'd agree. But I don't go around at the same time saying how great and true the Bible is.

 

[Skywalker]

Oh, that is what you meant. Yes, I agree that was the reason.

What similar connection to Jesus did Bahulllah have?

 

[Trailblazer]

If something is true, it's true for all people, at all times, at all places.

That's true. Truth is Reality and Reality is one; it does not admit of multiplicity

“The first principle Baha’u’llah urged was the independent investigation of truth. “Each individual,” He said, “is following the faith of his ancestors who themselves are lost in the maze of tradition. Reality is steeped in dogmas and doctrines. If each investigate for himself, he will find that Reality is one; does not admit of multiplicity; is not divisible. All will find the same foundation and all will be at peace.” – Abdu’l-Baha, Star of the West, Volume 3, p. 5.

 

[Trailblazer]

The King James Bible supports Jesus being God. Daniel 3:25 in the KJV says, "He answered and said, Lo, I see four men loose, walking in the midst of the fire, and they have no hurt; and the form of the fourth is like the Son of God." The NIV says a son of the gods, the NRSV says a god, and the NAB says a son of God.

No translation supports Jesus being God. Logic tells us that Jesus cannot be God.
The verses below explain why Jesus is not God, and why Jesus CANNOT be God.

Jesus claimed to reveal God, Whom He called Father, but Jesus differentiated Himself from God:

John 5:26 For as the Father hath life in himself, even so gave he to the Son also to have life in himself:

John 8:40 But now ye seek to slay me, a man that have spoken to you [the] truth, that I heard of God; Abraham did not this thing.

John 14:1 Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me.

John 16:23 And in that day ye shall ask me nothing. Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whatsoever ye shall ask the Father in my name, he will give it you.

Jesus said that God was greater than He was:

Mark 10:18 And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God.

Matthew 4:10 Jesus said to him, 'Away from me, Satan! For it is written: "Worship the Lord your God, and serve him only."

John 14:28 Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I.

John 5:19 Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise.

How could Jesus pray to and go to the Father if Jesus WAS the God the Father?

John 20:17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.

John 16:16 A little while, and ye shall not see me: and again, a little while, and ye shall see me, because I go to the Father.

John 14:16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;

Moreover, Jesus said that no man has ever seen God:

John 1:18 No man hath seen God at any time, the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.

1 John 4:12 No man hath seen God at any time. If we love one another, God dwelleth in us, and his love is perfected in us.

Jesus said He was from God and that God sent Him, again differentiating Himself from God:

John 17:3 And eternal life means to know you, the only true God, and to know Jesus Christ, whom you sent.

John 7:28 Then cried Jesus in the temple as he taught, saying, Ye both know me, and ye know whence I am: and I am not come of myself, but he that sent me is true, whom ye know not. 29 But I know him: for I am from him, and he hath sent me.

Jesus even stated specifically that the Father had knowledge which was not possessed by the Son.

Matthew 24:36 No one knows about that day or hour, not even the Son, but the Father only.

Mark 13:32 But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father.

Jesus referred to Himself as a Prophet, and was so regarded. Jesus never referred to Himself as God.

Matthew 13:57 And they were offended in him. But Jesus said unto them, A prophet is not without honour, save in his own country, and in his own house.

Luke 13:33 Nevertheless I must walk to day, and to morrow, and the day following: for it cannot be that a prophet perish out of Jerusalem.

Matthew 21:11 And the multitude said, This is Jesus the prophet of Nazareth of Galilee.

Luke 7:16 And there came a fear on all: and they glorified God, saying, That a great prophet is risen up among us; and, That God hath visited his people.

Jesus IS NOT God Bible Quotes... Continued:

2 Corinthians 1:3 Blessed be God, even the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of mercies, and the God of all comfort;

1 Corinthians 8:6 But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.

2 Corinthians 11:31 The God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which is blessed for evermore, knoweth that I lie not.

Acts 2:22 Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know:

Acts 17:31 Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead.

Ephesians 1:17 That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give unto you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of him:

Romans 15:6 That ye may with one mind and one mouth glorify God, even the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Colossians 1:15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature.

1 Timothy 2:5 For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus,

Hosea 11:9 I will not execute the fierceness of mine anger, I will not return to destroy Ephraim: for I am God, and not man; the Holy One in the midst of thee: and I will not enter into the city.

Numbers 23:19 God is not a man, that he should lie; neither the son of man, that he should repent: hath he said, and shall he not do it? or hath he spoken, and shall he not make it good?

 

[Skywalker]

That's true. Truth is Reality and Reality is one; it does not admit of multiplicity

“The first principle Baha’u’llah urged was the independent investigation of truth. “Each individual,” He said, “is following the faith of his ancestors who themselves are lost in the maze of tradition. Reality is steeped in dogmas and doctrines. If each investigate for himself, he will find that Reality is one; does not admit of multiplicity; is not divisible. All will find the same foundation and all will be at peace.” – Abdu’l-Baha, Star of the West, Volume 3, p. 5.

How can all religions be true? The God of Christianity wants all of his creation saved. Buddhism doesn't have the biblical concept of sin.

 

[Trailblazer]

What similar connection to Jesus did Bahulllah have?

I do not know what you mean.

 

[Trailblazer]

How can all religions be true? The God of Christianity wants all of his creation saved. Buddhism doesn't have the biblical concept of sin.

Bahai's do not think of salvation in terms of salvation from the stain of "original sin" as Christians believe.
Baha’is believe that all the great religions bestow salvation. Note what it says about the Buddhist perspective.

Salvation in the Baha'i Faith

According to Bahá'u'lláh, pride or self-centeredness is one of the greatest hindrances to spiritual progress. Pride represents an exaggerated sense of one's own importance in the universe and leads to an attitude of superiority over others.

The prideful person feels in absolute control of his life and the circumstances surrounding it and he seeks power and dominance over others because such power helps him maintain this illusion of superiority. Pride is such a hindrance to spiritual growth because it impels the prideful individual on an endless quest to fulfill the expectations of his vainly-conceived and illusory self-concept.

In the Bahá'í notion of spiritual progress, whatever is conducive to spiritual progress is good, and whatever tends to hinder spiritual progress is bad. This doctrine reminds one of the Buddhist perspective. From the Bahá'í viewpoint, learning "right" from "wrong" means attaining a degree of self-knowledge that permits us to know when something is helpful to our spiritual growth and when it is not. And this knowledge can only be obtained through the teachings of the Manifestations (the prophets of the great religions).

Bahá'u'lláh repeatedly stressed that only revealed religion can save us from our imperfections. It is because God has sent his Manifestations to show us the path to spiritual development and to touch our hearts with the spirit of God's love that we are able to realize our true potential and make the effort to be united with God. This is the "salvation" that religion brings.

Bahai's do not think of salvation in terms of salvation from the stain of "original sin," nor does it protect us from some external evil force or devil. Rather, it delivers people from the captivity to their own lower nature, a captivity that breeds private despair and threatens social destruction. Salvation means drawing nearer to God and progressing on the path to a deep and satisfying happiness.

Salvation in the Baha'i Faith

 

[Skywalker]

No translation supports Jesus being God. Logic tells us that Jesus cannot be God.
The verses below explain why Jesus is not God, and why Jesus CANNOT be God.

Jesus claimed to reveal God, Whom He called Father, but Jesus differentiated Himself from God:

John 5:26 For as the Father hath life in himself, even so gave he to the Son also to have life in himself:

John 8:40 But now ye seek to slay me, a man that have spoken to you [the] truth, that I heard of God; Abraham did not this thing.

John 14:1 Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me.

John 16:23 And in that day ye shall ask me nothing. Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whatsoever ye shall ask the Father in my name, he will give it you.

Jesus said that God was greater than He was:

Mark 10:18 And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God.

Matthew 4:10 Jesus said to him, 'Away from me, Satan! For it is written: "Worship the Lord your God, and serve him only."

John 14:28 Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I.

John 5:19 Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise.

How could Jesus pray to and go to the Father if Jesus WAS the God the Father?

John 20:17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.

John 16:16 A little while, and ye shall not see me: and again, a little while, and ye shall see me, because I go to the Father.

John 14:16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;

Moreover, Jesus said that no man has ever seen God:

John 1:18 No man hath seen God at any time, the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.

1 John 4:12 No man hath seen God at any time. If we love one another, God dwelleth in us, and his love is perfected in us.

Jesus said He was from God and that God sent Him, again differentiating Himself from God:

John 17:3 And eternal life means to know you, the only true God, and to know Jesus Christ, whom you sent.

John 7:28 Then cried Jesus in the temple as he taught, saying, Ye both know me, and ye know whence I am: and I am not come of myself, but he that sent me is true, whom ye know not. 29 But I know him: for I am from him, and he hath sent me.

Jesus even stated specifically that the Father had knowledge which was not possessed by the Son.

Matthew 24:36 No one knows about that day or hour, not even the Son, but the Father only.

Mark 13:32 But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father.

Jesus referred to Himself as a Prophet, and was so regarded. Jesus never referred to Himself as God.

Matthew 13:57 And they were offended in him. But Jesus said unto them, A prophet is not without honour, save in his own country, and in his own house.

Luke 13:33 Nevertheless I must walk to day, and to morrow, and the day following: for it cannot be that a prophet perish out of Jerusalem.

Matthew 21:11 And the multitude said, This is Jesus the prophet of Nazareth of Galilee.

Luke 7:16 And there came a fear on all: and they glorified God, saying, That a great prophet is risen up among us; and, That God hath visited his people.

Jesus IS NOT God Bible Quotes... Continued:

2 Corinthians 1:3 Blessed be God, even the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of mercies, and the God of all comfort;

1 Corinthians 8:6 But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.

2 Corinthians 11:31 The God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which is blessed for evermore, knoweth that I lie not.

Acts 2:22 Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know:

Acts 17:31 Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead.

Ephesians 1:17 That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give unto you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of him:

Romans 15:6 That ye may with one mind and one mouth glorify God, even the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Colossians 1:15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature.

1 Timothy 2:5 For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus,

Hosea 11:9 I will not execute the fierceness of mine anger, I will not return to destroy Ephraim: for I am God, and not man; the Holy One in the midst of thee: and I will not enter into the city.

Numbers 23:19 God is not a man, that he should lie; neither the son of man, that he should repent: hath he said, and shall he not do it? or hath he spoken, and shall he not make it good?

The leader of a nation is of a greater office than his citizens but he is no greater of a person than they are. The expression small and great doesn't mean that a leader or a famous person is more important than anyone else.

A Series of Answers to Common Questions

Sam Shamoun


Question:

Jesus says that the Father is greater than he is, proving that he is not God. There is no one who is greater than God.

Answer:

Here is the passage in question:

"You heard that I said to you, 'I go away, and I will come to you ' If you loved Me, you would have rejoiced because I go to the Father, for the Father is greater (meizon) than I." John 14:28

Since the questioner (a Muslim) assumes Unitarianism (that God is one in being and in Person), it obviously doesn't make sense for God to speak of someone being greater than himself. Yet, if God is a Trinity, a Trinitarian Being (i.e. one eternal God existing in three distinct, yet inseparable Persons), then it is quite possible for one member or Person of the Godhead to be greater in some sense than the other members. It would be true that nothing outside of the Holy Trinity's own existence could ever be greater, but this doesn't necessarily imply that there cannot be some type of authority structure or ranking within the internal life and relationships of the Trinity itself.

 

[Trailblazer]

Yet Tony said that Baha'is say that the Bible is a "sure" guide?

A sure guide to spiritual truth, not a sure guide to who was the Messiah.
The Bible is not a sure guide to who was the Messiah for the obvious logical reason that the prophecies can and are interpreted differently by different people...

So if you say the prophecies were not fulfilled that is just your personal opinion based upon your interpretation of the verses. It does not prove anything.

 

[Skywalker]

A sure guide to spiritual truth, not a sure guide to who was the Messiah.
The Bible is not a sure guide to who was the Messiah for the obvious logical reason that the prophecies can and are interpreted differently by different people...

So if you say the prophecies were not fulfilled that is just your personal opinion based upon your interpretation of the verses. It does not prove anything.

Jeremiah 23:5-6 refers to the Messiah as a descendant of David. That verse also describes the Messiah as God, because it says "this is the name by which he will be called: The Lord our Righteousness." Isaiah 9:6-7 says that the Messiah will rule from the throne of David. Daniel 9:25-26 says that the Messiah will die in A.D. 33. The Messiah will die 483 years after the decree to rebuild Jerusalem (that works out to A.D. 33). The city and the temple will then be destroyed. (This occurred in 70.)