How can the Jew reject, Jesus, Muhammad, Bab and Baha'u'llah?

[Skywalker]

Okay, thanks for clarifying that. I cannot disagree with that viewpoint.

Are you suggesting that just because someone assigned the name Glory of God to Baha'u'llah, that is the reason that Baha'u'llah believed that He was the Glory of God?

Logically speaking, if God determined that Baha'u'llah would be the Messiah, then God determined that He would be the one who would fulfill the Bible prophecies that refer to the Glory of God. In that case, Baha'u'llah would only have been doing what God enjoined Him to do, when God spoke to Him during His Revelation.

The only other possibility is that Baha'u'llah was a false prophet, a pretender.

As I have been saying for years, there are only two possibilities:

1. Baha'u'llah was a true Prophet/Messenger of God, or
2. Baha'u'llah was a false prophet (in which case He was either deluded or lying)

Some people suggest that there is a third possibility, that Baha'u'llah was just a good man with noble ideals and good ideas, but that is not a logical possibility because a good man would not lie.

An individual being a good person has nothing to do with the Jesus or Bahulah being the Messiah.

 

[Skywalker]

I was not suggesting that there were three Messiahs.

I believe that Jesus was the Messiah who came in the station of the Son, and Baha'u'llah was the Messiah who came in the station of the Father. That is why Baha'u'llah proclaimed the following to the Christians. He did not claim to be God in the flesh. He claimed to be a Manifestation of God who came in the Station of the Father, representing the Father, just as Jesus came in the station of the Son of God. Thus Baha'is believe that when the Bible prophecies say the Lord will come, that refers to Baha'u'llah.

“The Word which the Son concealed is made manifest. It hath been sent down in the form of the human temple in this day. Blessed be the Lord Who is the Father! He, verily, is come unto the nations in His most great majesty. Turn your faces towards Him, O concourse of the righteous… This is the day whereon the Rock (Peter) crieth out and shouteth, and celebrateth the praise of its Lord, the All-Possessing, the Most High, saying: ‘Lo! The Father is come, and that which ye were promised in the Kingdom is fulfilled!…’” Proclamation of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 84-85

“O CONCOURSE of priests! Leave the bells, and come forth, then, from your churches. It behoveth you, in this day, to proclaim aloud the Most Great Name among the nations. Prefer ye to be silent, whilst every stone and every tree shouteth aloud: ‘The Lord is come in His great glory!’” Proclamation of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 94

“Give ear unto that which the Dove of Eternity warbleth upon the twigs of the Divine Lote-Tree: O peoples of the earth! We sent forth him who was named John to baptize you with water, that your bodies might be cleansed for the appearance of the Messiah. He, in turn, purified you with the fire of love and the water of the spirit in anticipation of these Days whereon the All-Merciful hath purposed to cleanse you with the water of life at the hands of His loving providence. This is the Father foretold by Isaiah, and the Comforter concerning Whom the Spirit had covenanted with you.Open your eyes, O concourse of bishops, that ye may behold your Lord seated upon the Throne of might and glory. “ The Summons of the Lord of Hosts, p. 63

Why do you think Jesus also didn't come in the station of the spirit?

 

[Skywalker]

Do you think that Jesus lied?

Jesus was not just a good man, Jesus is God.

 

[dybmh]

Are you suggesting that just because someone assigned the name Glory of God to Baha'u'llah, that is the reason that Baha'u'llah believed that He was the Glory of God?

What I'm saying is labeling him Glory of God may have influenced his actions and undermines the value of the prophecies that are solely depending on his assignment of this name, Baha'u'llah.

Logically speaking, if God determined that Baha'u'llah would be the Messiah, then God determined that He would be the one who would fulfill the Bible prophecies that refer to the Glory of God. In that case, Baha'u'llah would only have been doing what God enjoined Him to do, when God spoke to Him during His Revelation.

If Baha'u'llah fulfilled the prophecies, then the fact that his name means Glory of God is of lesser importance.

The only other possibility is that Baha'u'llah was a false prophet, a pretender.

As I have been saying for years, there are only two possibilities:

1. Baha'u'llah was a true Prophet/Messenger of God, or
2. Baha'u'llah was a false prophet (in which case He was either deluded or lying)

Some people suggest that there is a third possibility, that Baha'u'llah was just a good man with noble ideals and good ideas, but that is not a logical possibility because a good man would not lie.

I don't know. I'm just focusing on the prophecies in Tanach that are claimed to have been fulfilled by Baha'u'llah. Are the verses messianic? Do they clearly identify Baha'u'llah and no one else? Were they actually fulfiled by Baha'u'llah or was it just a coincidence?

 

[dybmh]

What makes the other way to look at it more likely?

Because the way that Jesus is described in the NT does not encourage Torah observance.

 

[Skywalker]

Sure it does. It happens during the messianic era, when the Messiah rules. No peace? No Messiah.

Jews have NOT been brought back to the homeland -- less than half the Jews in the world live in Israel.


Actually, the Messiah IS referred to in the Tanakh as David. Sorry, my friend.

So you see, all these thing DO show that the Baha'u'llah was not the Messiah, these things which I've reviewed with your before (more than once.

Peace will happen during the 1000 year reign of Christ. Did Jesus Fulfill the Messianic Prophecies in the Old Testament? | Jewish Voice

The misconception that Jesus did not fulfill the Messianic prophecies of the Old Testament is predominately held by Jewish People. The argument stems from several key Scriptures: Isaiah 11:1-9, Isaiah 2:3-4, and Micah 4:2-3

In Isaiah 11:1-9, we see prophecies about the coming Messiah, some of which were fulfilled in Yeshua, but some have not been fulfilled yet. . We don’t yet see wolves lying down with lambs, nursing children playing at the cobra’s hole, or the earth full of the knowledge of the LORD. The verses in Micah are also clear prophecies about the coming Messiah, and they tell of a universal peace that has not yet manifested. The argument then is: if Jesus was the Messiah, why isn’t there world peace? Many Jewish People who are still waiting expectantly for the Messiah are expecting a Messiah who will bring world peace.

Israel will be fully regathered when Jesus returns.

Jesus was the son of David legally through solomon and biologically through Nathan.

 

[Trailblazer]

Sure it does. It happens during the messianic era, when the Messiah rules. No peace? No Messiah.

Talk is cheap. Show me the actual verses that say that there will be a Messiah that rules on earth and that peace will be established during his lifetime. Either that or I will consider that a belief not supported by scripture.

Jews have NOT been brought back to the homeland -- less than half the Jews in the world live in Israel.

Talk is cheap. Show me the actual verses that say that there is any specific number of Jews who will return to the homeland and show me the verses that say when they will return.

Actually, the Messiah IS referred to in the Tanakh as David. Sorry, my friend.

Talk is cheap. Show me the actual verses that say that the Messiah is a man called David.

The hundred-dollar question is who is David within the context of the scriptures, and that involves interpretation of scriptures, not assumptions of who the Messiah will be according to who you already believe he is, according to what you were taught and/or how you interpreted the scriptures. There can be more than one interpretation of the same scriptures and there is no reason to think your interpretation is correct.

Baha’is do not believe that the throne of David refers to a man who will rule on a throne on earth. Prove me wrong.

“THE Most Great Law is come, and the Ancient Beauty ruleth upon the throne of David. Thus hath My Pen spoken that which the histories of bygone ages have related. At this time, however, David crieth aloud and saith: ‘O my loving Lord! Do Thou number me with such as have stood steadfast in Thy Cause, O Thou through Whom the faces have been illumined, and the footsteps have slipped!’” Proclamation of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 89-90

“LEND an ear unto the song of David. He saith: ‘Who will bring me into the Strong City?’ The Strong City is ‘Akká, which hath been named the Most Great Prison, and which possesseth a fortress and mighty ramparts… Peruse that which Isaiah hath spoken in His Book. He saith: ‘Get thee up into the high mountain, O Zion, that bringest good tidings; lift up thy voice with strength, O Jerusalem, that bringest good tidings. Lift it up, be not afraid; say unto the cities of Judah: “Behold your God! Behold the Lord God will come with strong hand, and His arm shall rule for Him.”’ This Day all the signs have appeared. A great City hath descended from heaven, and Zion trembleth and exulteth with joy at the Revelation of God, for it hath heard the Voice of God on every side.”
Proclamation of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 90-91

So you see, all these thing DO show that the Baha'u'llah was not the Messiah, these things which I've reviewed with your before (more than once.

Dream on. You have showed me nothing because all you have are beliefs and personal opinions. You make a lot of claims but you provide no verses to back up those claims.

I do not debate beliefs and personal opinions. I need evidence, which is in the actual scriptures.
When I debate with Christians those are honest debates because they provide the scriptures to back up their beliefs.

As my mother used to say: “if you can’t stand the heat, get out of the kitchen.”
If you cannot back up your beliefs with scriptures, don’t engage in a debate.

 

[Skywalker]

Because the way that Jesus is described in the NT does not encourage Torah observance.

Jesus observed the Torah, but it wasn't mandatory for gentiles.

 

[dybmh]

Jesus observed the Torah, but it wasn't mandatory for gentiles.

Hmmmmm.... based on our previous conversations, I'm not sure that you would know whether or not Jesus observed Torah.

But, what I said was "The way that Jesus is described in the NT does not encourage Torah observance."

 

[Skywalker]

Talk is cheap. Show me the actual verses that say that there will be a Messiah that rules on earth and that peace will be established during his lifetime. Either that or I will consider that a belief not supported by scripture.

Talk is cheap. Show me the actual verses that say that there is any specific number of Jews who will return to the homeland and show me the verses that say when they will return.

Talk is cheap. Show me the actual verses that say that the Messiah is a man called David.

The hundred-dollar question is who is David within the context of the scriptures, and that involves interpretation of scriptures, not assumptions of who the Messiah will be according to who you already believe he is, according to what you were taught and/or how you interpreted the scriptures. There can be more than one interpretation of the same scriptures and there is no reason to think your interpretation is correct.

Baha’is do not believe that the throne of David refers to a man who will rule on a throne on earth. Prove me wrong.

“THE Most Great Law is come, and the Ancient Beauty ruleth upon the throne of David. Thus hath My Pen spoken that which the histories of bygone ages have related. At this time, however, David crieth aloud and saith: ‘O my loving Lord! Do Thou number me with such as have stood steadfast in Thy Cause, O Thou through Whom the faces have been illumined, and the footsteps have slipped!’” Proclamation of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 89-90

“LEND an ear unto the song of David. He saith: ‘Who will bring me into the Strong City?’ The Strong City is ‘Akká, which hath been named the Most Great Prison, and which possesseth a fortress and mighty ramparts… Peruse that which Isaiah hath spoken in His Book. He saith: ‘Get thee up into the high mountain, O Zion, that bringest good tidings; lift up thy voice with strength, O Jerusalem, that bringest good tidings. Lift it up, be not afraid; say unto the cities of Judah: “Behold your God! Behold the Lord God will come with strong hand, and His arm shall rule for Him.”’ This Day all the signs have appeared. A great City hath descended from heaven, and Zion trembleth and exulteth 91 with joy at the Revelation of God, for it hath heard the Voice of God on every side.”
Proclamation of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 90-91

Dream on. You have showed me nothing because all you have are beliefs and personal opinions. You make a lot of claims but you provide no verses to back up those claims.

I do not debate beliefs and personal opinions. I need evidence, which is in the actual scriptures.
When I debate with Christians those are honest debates because they provide the scriptures to back up their beliefs.

As my mother used to say: “if you can’t stand the heat, get out of the kitchen.”
If you cannot back up your beliefs with scriptures, don’t engage in a debate.

All Israel Shall Be Saved! The End Times Salvation of Israel

The last fifteen chapters of the book of Ezekiel detail the spiritual awakening and reconciliation of Israel to God during the Great Tribulation and Millennial Kingdom of Jesus Christ. Here are a sample verses that explain the reconciliation of Israel to God in the end times:

GOD WILL BRING ISRAEL BACK INTO THE PROMISED LAND AND APPOINT THE MESSIAH TO RULE OVER THEM
“And I will set up one shepherd over them, and he shall feed them, even my servant David; he shall feed them, and he shall be their shepherd. And I the Lord will be their God, and my servant David a prince among them; I the Lord have spoken it. And I will make with them a covenant of peace, and will cause the evil beasts to cease out of the land: and they shall dwell safely in the wilderness, and sleep in the woods.

“And I will make them and the places round about my hill a blessing; and I will cause the shower to come down in his season; there shall be showers of blessing…and shall know that I am the Lord, when I have broken the bands of their yoke, and delivered them out of the hand of those that served themselves of them. And they shall no more be a prey to the heathen, neither shall the beast of the land devour them; but they shall dwell safely, and none shall make them afraid.

“…Thus shall they know that I the Lord their God am with them, and that they, even the house of Israel, are my people, saith the Lord God. And ye my flock, the flock of my pasture, are men, and I am your God, saith the Lord God.” – Ezekiel 34:23-31.

Israel will be fully regathered only when Jesus returns.

 

[Skywalker]

Hmmmmm.... based on our previous conversations, I'm not sure that you would know whether or not Jesus observed Torah.

But, what I said was "The way that Jesus is described in the NT does not encourage Torah observance."

Jesus came to save us and teach us how to live, not to teach people to be Jewish if it wasn't in their convictions.

 

[dybmh]

Jesus came to save us and teach us how to live, not to teach people to be Jewish if it wasn't in their convictions.

Therefore: you don't really know if Jesus observed the Torah. Right?

Please be honest.

 

[Skywalker]

Therefore: you don't really know if Jesus observed the Torah. Right?

Please be honest.

Jesus observed the Torah but there's no need for Gentile Christians to follow it. Jesus Taught Against the Law of Moses | Jewish Voice

It is unfortunate that nearly two thousand years after He came, we have a Jesus who is nearly devoid of any Jewish identity and a Church that is almost completely severed from its Jewish roots. Although this was never God’s intention, it started very early in Church history. It began with a movement away from celebrating Shabbat (the Sabbath) and the other biblical Feasts and calling these observances heretical. And so today, we have a Jesus who is not recognizable to His own Jewish People as the Messiah of Israel.

Rabbi Bernis states:
This comes from the fallacy that Yeshua taught against the Law of Moses. This lie emerged largely as a result of an overemphasis of being under the Age of Grace, the Church Age. However, Jesus never taught against the Law, the Torah. He followed and taught the Law. While Yeshua redefined the Law and taught how to rightly interpret it, He lived and died as an observant Jew in Israel. Jesus said: “Do not think that I have come to abolish the Torah or the Prophets! I have not come to abolish, but to fulfill” (Matthew 5:17 TLV). Some believe that “fulfill” means “to bring to conclusion” or “to complete,” but this is incorrect. In this context, it is best understood by reversing the syllables of the word “fulfill.” Doing so more clearly reveals the meaning “fill full” or “bring fullness to.”

 

[dybmh]

Jesus observed the Torah

How would you know if Jesus observed Torah? You don't have the knowledge to identify his transgressions.

 

[Skywalker]

How would you know if Jesus observed Torah? You don't have the knowledge to identify his transgressions.

The parents of Jesus took him to the temple. Why would Jesus observing the Torah be wrong?

 

[dybmh]

The parents of Jesus took him to the temple.

It doesn't mean he didn't transgress. Nor does it mean he didn't encourage people to transgress.

Why would Jesus observing the Torah be wrong?

I didn't say that.

What I said was: "The way that Jesus is described in the NT does not encourage Torah observance."

You said: "Jesus observed Torah."

I said: "How do you know? You don't have the knowledge to identify a transgression."

So, please be honest, you don't have the knowledge to determine whether or not Jesus observed Torah, nor do you have the knowledge to identify his transgressions?

 

[Skywalker]

I do not believe there are two different Messiahs, only two different 'conceptions' of who/what the Messiah is/will do.

Logically speaking, both of these conceptions cannot be correct, if they are different. As such, the Messiah cannot be who Jews expect he will be and do what the Jews expect he will do if the Messiah is who Baha'is believe he was and did the things we believe he did.

To put it more bluntly, the Jews and the Baha'is cannot both be right about the Messiah.

A starting place would be to determine how Baha'u'llah got His name/title. I am not sure how Baha'u'llah got that title, but if memory serves me correctly, it was given to Him by the Bab. He did not just take in on Himself, saying I will be called Baha'u'llah because I am the Glory of God. However, I am not very proficient in Baha'i history, so maybe one of the other Baha'is such as @ adrian009, @ Tony Bristow-Stagg , @ InvestigateTruth , or @ loverofhumanity can help me out.

I also never heard that biblical scholars deemed that title important, so maybe one of the other Baha'is knows more about this.
I can see why biblical scholars would deem that title important though, given all the references to the Glory of God in the Bible.

And I saw no temple therein: for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are the temple of it. And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb is the light thereof. (Revelation 21:22-2)

The wilderness and the solitary place shall be glad for them; and the desert shall rejoice, and blossom as the rose. (Isaiah 35:1)

It shall blossom abundantly, and rejoice even with joy and singing: the glory of Lebanon shall be given unto it, the excellency of Carmel and Sharon, they shall see the glory of the LORD, and the excellency of our God. (Isaiah 35:2)

In still another chapter, Isaiah says: "Arise, shine; for thy light is come, and the glory of the LORD is risen upon thee." (Isaiah 60:1).

And a few verses later he foresees the following: "The glory of Lebanon shall come unto thee, the fir tree, the pine tree, and the box together, to beautify the place of my sanctuary; and I will make the place of my feet glorious." (Isaiah 60:13).

So was Baha’u’llah the Glory of God referred to in the Bible? If He was, I would say He was the Messiah, the Promised One of all the religions.

Anyone could call themselves the Glory of God. Similar terms like the Glory of God, the Messiah, and the Promised One, don't mean that Baha'ullah was the Messiah.

 

[Skywalker]

It doesn't mean he didn't transgress. Nor does it mean he didn't encourage people to transgress.

I didn't say that.

What I said was: "The way that Jesus is described in the NT does not encourage Torah observance."

You said: "Jesus observed Torah."

I said: "How do you know? You don't have the knowledge to identify a transgression."

So, please be honest, you don't have the knowledge to determine whether or not Jesus observed Torah, nor do you have the knowledge to identify his transgressions?

Jesus was a first century Jew. He observed Torah. Are you saying that you believe Jesus sinned because of the Bible story that sounds like Jesus ran away from his parents?

 

[dybmh]

Jesus was a first century Jew.

Ok ...

He observed Torah.

How do you know?

Are you saying that you believe Jesus sinned because of the Bible story that sounds like Jesus ran away from his parents?

Nope.

 

[Skywalker]

Ok ...

How do you know?

Nope.

Why wouldn't a first century Jew observe Torah? Jesus observing the Torah wouldn't have been a transgression. Jesus Taught Against the Law of Moses | Jewish Voice

If that isn’t clear enough, Yeshua goes on to declare: “Amen, I tell you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest letter or serif shall ever pass away from the Torah until all things come to pass” (Matthew 5:18 TLV).

Jesus wasn't against the Old Covenant, it's just not necessary for Gentile believers.