How can the Jew reject, Jesus, Muhammad, Bab and Baha'u'llah?

[Skywalker]

That verse says nothing about Jesus ruling from Jerusalem...
This is what I meant when I said that Christians interpret the scriptures and try to make them mean what they want to believe, rather than what they actually say.

Jesus rules from Jerusalem because he is the Messiah of Israel. BIBLE VERSES ABOUT JESUS RULING IN JERUSALEM

Matthew 24:30 - And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

Revelation 2:27 - And he shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father.

 

[dybmh]

Why wouldn't a first century Jew observe Torah?

Why? I can't say for sure. However, didn't Jesus claim that the people in his generation were wicked?

Jesus observing the Torah wouldn't have been a transgression.

Ignored: You're not making sense.

If that isn’t clear enough, Yeshua goes on to declare: “Amen, I tell you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest letter or serif shall ever pass away from the Torah until all things come to pass” (Matthew 5:18 TLV).

And yet, he still transgresses and encourages others to transgress... according to the story. It shows, if it's true, that he **knowingly** transgressed and knowingly encouraged others to transgress. That's a big deal.

Jesus wasn't against the Old Covenant, it's just not necessary for Gentile believers.

Well... as I said before, you're lacking knowledge to make that assessment.

All we can say is, "Jesus as described in the NT does not encourage Torah observance."

 

[Skywalker]

Why? I can't say for sure. However, didn't Jesus claim that the people in his generation were wicked?

Ignored: You're not making sense.

And yet, he still transgresses and encourages others to transgress... according to the story. It shows, if it's true, that he **knowingly** transgressed and knowingly encouraged others to transgress. That's a big deal.

Well... as I said before, you're lacking knowledge to make that assessment.

All we can say is, "Jesus as described in the NT does not encourage Torah observance."

Jesus was God, so he could say certain things. When do you think Jesus sinned? The incident where he was mingling with temple teachers and his parents couldn't find him? He didn't run away from his parents.

 

[Skywalker]

Why? I can't say for sure. However, didn't Jesus claim that the people in his generation were wicked?

Ignored: You're not making sense.

And yet, he still transgresses and encourages others to transgress... according to the story. It shows, if it's true, that he **knowingly** transgressed and knowingly encouraged others to transgress. That's a big deal.

Well... as I said before, you're lacking knowledge to make that assessment.

All we can say is, "Jesus as described in the NT does not encourage Torah observance."

One of the roles of the Messiah was to teach us how to live. Torah observance was already given to the Jewish people by Moses and holidays like Purim and Hanukkah came from later in the Old Testament.

 

[Skywalker]

I've asked Baha'is several times about the verse that says there will be wars and rumors of war but that is not yet the end. That seems to imply that if anyone claims to be the Christ and wars are still going on, then that person is not the Christ. And related to that... Are there any verses that have the tribulations continuing after the Christ has returned? Here the Baha'i "Christ" has come, died, and it's been over one hundred years since he's died, and the tribulations continue.

When Jesus returns he will defeat the enemies of Israel and establish 1000 years of peace. The Tribulation ends with the second coming of Jesus. I don't beleive that Bahuallah can be the Messiah, because the Bahai faith says he returned in the 1860s, and we aren't supposed to set dates for the second coming of Christ.

Will the Lord Return in 2018?

I once received a letter from a sincere gentleman who believes the Lord will return in 2018. He said that scientists are predicting the worst solar storm in 150 years in 2012. He mentioned the high number of recent devastating hurricanes, and the killer Tsunami in December of 2004.

He also brought up all the wars and rumors of wars over the past 100 years. He mentioned that China has a military of over 200,000,000 men. He wrote of the nuclear threat, and the genetics nightmare just getting started. He said that he was fully aware of Mark 13:32, "But of that day and that hour knoweth no man..."

We know Biblically that men cannot know exactly when the Lord Jesus will return at the Rapture; but did God say that men could not discern the season of His return? This is an interesting question and worthy of study. Here is the letter that I received...

"In the Beginning God Created the heaven and the Earth, He took 6 days to Create the Heaven and Earth, and Rested on the 7th" -Genesis 1

Why Did God create 6 days to Create the Earth, and rest on the 7th, If he could have done it, In less then 1 second? But he didn't. He took 6 days and rested on the 7th. In the bible, It says 1000 years Is as 1 days In Gods Eyes, It also Says God Judges The end from the Beginning.

If God judges the end from the Beginning, In the Beginning He took 6 days to create the earth, and If 1 days is as a 1000 Years, Maybe God is trying to Tell us something, There were 4000 Years Before Christ or 4 days, And "ALMOST" 2000 Years After Christ or 2 Days. And when that time is up, It will be the 7th day or the last 1000 Years, Which is Christs Rein.

This is where it Gets really Interesting.

I know we are in 2006, However It is said That from 100B.C. Until 1582 A.D. A year around the world was counted as 360 days, Not 365.25 Days. So we lost time, We are not really in 2006. Technically we may have lost 25 years, and Are really in 1981.

Now lets say we are in 1981 in 12 Years from now, in 1993 or 2018, It will be 7 years from the year 2000 or 2025, And Since the Tribulation Lasts 7 years, The Tribulation will end in 2000 or 2025, Starting Christs Rein Until 3000 or 3025, Finishing the 7th days or the Full 7,000 Years Since God created the Earth."

Although his reasoning is very interesting indeed, we must be CAREFUL not to set any dates, lest we end up like the 10,000 Millerites back in 1844 who gave away their possessions, quit their jobs, sold their homes, and were greatly embarrassed when the Lord didn't return in 1844.

 

[Skywalker]

Why? I can't say for sure. However, didn't Jesus claim that the people in his generation were wicked?

Ignored: You're not making sense.

And yet, he still transgresses and encourages others to transgress... according to the story. It shows, if it's true, that he **knowingly** transgressed and knowingly encouraged others to transgress. That's a big deal.

Well... as I said before, you're lacking knowledge to make that assessment.

All we can say is, "Jesus as described in the NT does not encourage Torah observance."

Moses gave the Old Covenant. Jesus came to bring the New Covenant, and he practiced the Jewish Old Covenant with his disciples, but he was neutral on the issue generally because it wasn't his mission. Jesus Taught Against the Law of Moses | Jewish Voice

This is crystal clear—Yeshua is not advocating the abrogation of even the minutest detail of the Law. Reading on in Matthew 5 verses 27 through the end, you see that He even takes the Torah commandments further. Jesus is fulfilling exactly what was prophesied by the prophet Jeremiah when He promised the new covenant: “‘But this is the covenant I will make with the house of Israel after those days,’ it is a declaration of Adonai, ‘I will put My Torah within them. Yes, I will write it on their heart’” (Jeremiah 31:33 TLV).

Yeshua is saying that we are not under an external law, because we now have the law within—written on our minds and hearts by the Holy Spirit. Therefore, He calls us to go even beyond the written Law (i.e., do not even commit adultery or murder in your heart). Does this sound like teaching against the Mosaic Law and the prophets? Absolutely not!

 

[dybmh]

Jesus was God, so he could say certain things.

When do you think Jesus sinned?

Here's the thing. I told you the answer in previous threads in previous conversations. What I notice is that you don't listen or value what I've said or what other Jewish people have said. So, until you can demonstrate that my words have value, I'm not going to give away the answer.

I'll give you a hint: There are two transgressions Matthew 5. You're on the right track by quoting verse 18. The trangressions violate words of Torah from Moses, not from Mishnah, Talmud, or Midrash.

The incident where he was mingling with temple teachers and his parents couldn't find him? He didn't run away from his parents.

Nope, that's not it.

One of the roles of the Messiah was to teach us how to live.

"Jesus as described in the NT does not encourage Torah observance."

Torah observance was already given to the Jewish people by Moses and holidays like Purim and Hanukkah came from later in the Old Testament.

"Jesus as described in the NT encourages Jewish people to transgress."

 

[dybmh]

[Jesus] practiced the Jewish Old Covenant with his disciples.

Nope. You simply don't know enough about the Old Covenant to make that assertion.

 

[dybmh]

This is crystal clear—Yeshua is not advocating the abrogation of even the minutest detail of the Law. Reading on in Matthew 5 verses 27 through the end, you see that He even takes the Torah commandments further. Jesus is fulfilling exactly what was prophesied by the prophet Jeremiah when He promised the new covenant: “‘But this is the covenant I will make with the house of Israel after those days,’ it is a declaration of Adonai, ‘I will put My Torah within them. Yes, I will write it on their heart’” (Jeremiah 31:33 TLV).

Yeshua is saying that we are not under an external law, because we now have the law within—written on our minds and hearts by the Holy Spirit. Therefore, He calls us to go even beyond the written Law (i.e., do not even commit adultery or murder in your heart). Does this sound like teaching against the Mosaic Law and the prophets? Absolutely not!

Sorry. The conclusion: "Yeshua is not advocating the abrogation of even the minutest detail of the Law" Is completely, 100% false. Whoever wrote this does not know Torah.

Edit to add: or they're lying.

 

[Skywalker]

Here's the thing. I told you the answer in previous threads in previous conversations. What I notice is that you don't listen or value what I've said or what other Jewish people have said. So, until you can demonstrate that my words have value, I'm not going to give away the answer.

I'll give you a hint: There are two transgressions Matthew 5. You're on the right track by quoting verse 18. The trangressions violate words of Torah from Moses, not from Mishnah, Talmud, or Midrash.


Nope, that's not it.

"Jesus as described in the NT does not encourage Torah observance."

"Jesus as described in the NT encourages Jewish people to transgress."

The Messiah will fill the earth with the knowledge of the Lord in the Millennium, and he taught us how to live when he arrived. The sayings of Jesus are known globally. Nahum 1:2-5 says, " And also that of elements you'll melt with fervent heat; and all things shall become new, that my knowledge and glory may dwell upon all the earth ."

Since being Jewish existed before Jesus, and there were other things he had to teach, it's consistent with Judaism that Jesus didn't really teach Torah observance.

Jesus taught high moral standards in the sermon on the mount.

 

[Skywalker]

Nope. You simply don't know enough about the Old Covenant to make that assertion.

The modern viewpoint of Judaism and Christianity being different religions didn't exist during the times of Jesus. Jewish Christian - Wikipedia

The inclusion of non-Jews led to a growing split between Jewish Christians (i.e. the Jewish followers of Jesus) and non-Jewish Christians. From the latter, Nicene Christianity eventually arose, while mainstream Judaism developed into Rabbinic Judaism. Jewish Christians drifted apart from mainstream Judaism, eventually becoming a minority strand which had mostly disappeared by the fifth century. Jewish–Christian gospels have been lost except for fragments, so there is considerable uncertainty as to the scriptures used by this group.

The split of Christianity and Judaism took place during the first centuries CE.[1][2]While the First Jewish–Roman War and the destruction of the Second Temple in 70 CE were main events, the separation was a long-term process, in which the boundaries were not clear-cut.[1][2]

 

[Skywalker]

Sorry. The conclusion: "Yeshua is not advocating the abrogation of even the minutest detail of the Law" Is completely, 100% false. Whoever wrote this does not know Torah.

Edit to add: or they're lying.

The New Covenant of following the Messiah and his teachings does not abrogate the Old Covenant and the law of Moses.

 

[dybmh]

The Messiah will fill the earth with the knowledge of the Lord in the Millennium, and he taught us how to live when he arrived. The sayings of Jesus are known globally. Nahum 1:2-5 says, " And also that of elements you'll melt with fervent heat; and all things shall become new, that my knowledge and glory may dwell upon all the earth ."

Jesus didn't fulfill this prophecy. He actually did the opposite.

Since being Jewish existed before Jesus, and there were other things he had to teach, it's consistent with Judaism that Jesus didn't really teach Torah observance.

By teaching those other things, he led people into transgression.

Jesus taught high moral standards in the sermon on the mount.

He should have stuck with Torah.

 

[dybmh]

modern viewpoint of Judaism and Christianity being different religions didn't exist during the times of Jesus.

That was then. This is now. I think it's undersandable for those Jews at that time to make a mistake and follow a false messiah.

Now? There is no excuse other than ignorance.

 

[Skywalker]

That was then. This is now. I think it's undersandable for those Jews at that time to make a mistake and follow a false messiah.

Now? There is no excuse other than ignorance.

That doesn't mean the Old Covenant and New Covenant are mutually exclusive, because of the teachings of rabbis. Rabbis are no different from pastors and priests. I don't even agree with everything they say.

 

[Skywalker]

Nope. You simply don't know enough about the Old Covenant to make that assertion.

The early Christians practiced Judaism and Christianity together. Jewish Christian - Wikipedia

Jewish practices and identity
The Book of Acts reports that the early followers continued daily Temple attendance and traditional Jewish home prayer. Other passages in the New Testament gospels reflect a similar observance of traditional Jewish piety such as fasting, reverence for the Torah and observance of Jewish holy days.

 

[Skywalker]

Jesus didn't fulfill this prophecy. He actually did the opposite.
By teaching those other things, he led people into transgression.

He should have stuck with Torah.

It's one of the second coming prophecies.

How does the sermon on the mount lead people into transgression? It agrees with the ethics of the Torah. Jesus said that divorce is not ideal.

Judaism also includes the Tanakh.

 

[dybmh]

That doesn't mean the Old Covenant and New Covenant are mutually exclusive, because of the teachings of rabbis. Rabbis are no different from pastors and priests. I don't even agree with everything they say.

The New Covenant and the Old Covenant contradict each other. They are mutually exclusive.

Hebrews 8:13 contradicts Jeremiah 31:36.

 

[Skywalker]

The New Covenant and the Old Covenant contradict each other. They are mutually exclusive.

Hebrews 8:13 contradicts Jeremiah 31:36.

The Old Covenant wasn't relevant to Gentiles. That is what Hebrews 8:13 meant.

 

[dybmh]

It's one of the second coming prophecies.

Well then you can't claim it for Jesus. If you look at post #610, that's what you tried to do.

How does the sermon on the mount lead people into transgression?

You'll need to demonstrate that you'll listen. Since you brought up the New Covenant again, I'm more and more confident that there's no reason to share information with you. It seems like a waste of time.

Judaism also includes the Tanakh.

Yup. The point is, the transgression isn't Rabbinic. It isn't based on tradition. It's from God through Moses in the Torah.

The Old Covenant wasn't relevant to Gentiles. That is what Hebrews 8:13 meant.

Ok. Then they're mutually exclusive. The Old Covenant is for Jewish people, the New Covenant is for Gentiles.

Fine. Glad we cleared that up. Hopefully you won't spread misinformation about it again.