How can the Jew reject, Jesus, Muhammad, Bab and Baha'u'llah?

[Skywalker]

Nope, he was talking about moving a mountain and withering a fig tree. That's magic.

Matthew 21:18

18Early in the morning, as Jesus was on his way back to the city, he was hungry. 19Seeing a fig tree by the road, he went up to it but found nothing on it except leaves. Then he said to it, “May you never bear fruit again!” Immediately the tree withered.

20When the disciples saw this, they were amazed. “How did the fig tree wither so quickly?” they asked.

21Jesus replied, “Truly I tell you, if you have faith and do not doubt, not only can you do what was done to the fig tree, but also you can say to this mountain, ‘Go, throw yourself into the sea,’ and it will be done. 22If you believe, you will receive whatever you ask for in prayer.”​

That's no different from the other miracles of Jesus. The Talmud is wrong when it says that the miracles of Jesus are sorcery because there are miracles in the Tanakh, let the talking donkey and the pillar of cloud that led the Hebrews in the wilderness.

 

[dybmh]

The metaphor is in anything we ask for in prayer. It doesn't literally mean anything, it means anything that is within the will of God. I can do all things through Christ who strengthens me doesn't mean I can fly.

Sorry. No. It's not intended as metaphor if the words begin with "Truly I tell you..."

Numbers 31 mentions the destruction of the Midianites. Later in the Tanakh the Midianites are mentioned. That doesn't mean that the Midianite people were all wiped out it meant a certain clan was.

I don't see it. This chapter talks about Moses, it does not come close to saying, "You will receive anything you ask for." Maybe quote the verses if you think I missed it.

 

[dybmh]

Jesus raised the standards of the law with a higher level. He said that if someone looks with lust they commit adultery in their heart. That is consistent with the ethics of the Torah.

He both raised them and lowered them. Both are transgressions.

 

[Skywalker]

He both raised them and lowered them. Both are transgressions.

Jesus didnt lower the standards. He said that Moses allowing divorce was a concession to our hard hearts. Moses didn't say that divorce was ideal.

 

[Skywalker]

Sorry. No. It's not intended as metaphor if the words begin with "Truly I tell you..."

I don't see it. This chapter talks about Moses, it does not come close to saying, "You will receive anything you ask for." Maybe quote the verses if you think I missed it.

Anything we ask for is the metaphor.

What about God’s cruelty against the Midianites

Only a certain group of Midianites was judged. The rest were spared totally.

1. The realities of life in the ANE precluded absorption of the residual boys into the people—in keeping with realities of the time.

This action/atrocity by the Midianites is an intensely sordid and depressing tale, of greater scale than even that of Sodom and Gomorrah, and of greater anti-Hebrew malice and calculating treachery than even that of the Amalekites…The removal of this exact sub-culture (without impacting the Moabites or the rest of the Midianites—for good or ill), while mercifully sparing a very large number of innocent young girls, yet without sparing the guilty Israelites, seems neither cruel nor unfair nor unwarranted, given the horrendously dehumanizing character of this crime, and given the unavoidable consequences of conflict upon children in the ancient world…

 

[Skywalker]

The claim that Jesus is a Messiah requires the Christian bible. The Christian bible is not a credible source. No one really knows what Jesus said or did. Because of this it should be understandable that anyone, including Jews, is skeptical about Jesus' status as a Messiah.

The claim that Jesus is a Messiah is not based on credible evidence.

The Messiah was to be buried with the rich in his death. Jesus was also a man of sorrows. Messianic Prophecies Fulfilled by Yeshua

Died with criminals and was buried in a rich man's grave.
Tenakh/Hebrew Scripture
Isaiah 53:9, And he made his grave with the wicked and with the rich in his death; because he had done no violence, neither was any deceit in his mouth.

Br'it Chadashah/New Covenant
Jesus was crucified with two thieves (Luke 23:33-43). When He was buried, a rich man, Joseph of Arimathea, laid Him in his own brand new tomb (Matthew 27:57-60).

Man of sorrows who was wounded for our transgressions.
Tenakh/Hebrew Scripture
Isaiah 53:4-5, Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted. But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.

Isaiah 53:10 says, Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, and he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand.

Isaiah 53:12 says, ...he bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.

Isaiah 53:8, ...for the transgression of my people was he stricken.

 

[Skywalker]

I listen to everything that is posted to me and I answer it. Everyone on this forum knows that. No, you have not been around the 'scriptural details' with me. Perhaps you posted a few verses, but nothing in those verses supported your rigid beliefs of what the Messiah has to be like, and what he has to do in order to 'qualify.' Those verses are very general, not specific, but you want to make a general verses specific because of what you already believe, which is what you want to believe, and you will never consider any other possibilities. That was not a discussion, it was is a lecture, because you never considered anything I said. All you did was tell me I was wrong and you were right.

You might want to say that same about me, but the hundred million dollar difference is that I believe in a Messiah who has come and gone and I can back up my beliefs with the prophecies that were fulfilled by Baha'u'llah, whereas and all you have is a 'conception' of what the Messiah will be like, what he has to be like and what he has to do, in order to live up to your expectations, which are based solely upon your personal interpretations of scripture. Those interpretations are not going to change, so I see no point in going around that block again.

Another thing Jews do not realize is that Jesus was indeed a Messiah, and He did fulfill many of the prophecies in the Tanakh, but He did not fulfill all of them because that was not part of God's Plan. God's Plan was to send another Messiah in the future in order to complete the work Jesus started. That is why Jesus promised to send 'another Comforter' who would complete the work He started and fulfill the remainder of the prophecies, including the prophecies that refer to the Messianic Age. We are only in the beginning of the Messianic Age which is to last no less than 1000 years from the year 1863 AD, so those Messiah prophecies have not all been fulfilled.

Why wouldn't Jesus fulfill the second coming prophecies himself? Saying it would have to be Bahullah is like saying there are two Messiahs. God does all things decently and in order. There's only a need for one Messiah.

 

[dybmh]

Jesus didnt lower the standards.

You don't know the standards. That's why you're missing it. He definitely lowered the standards.

He said that Moses allowing divorce was a concession to our hard hearts. Moses didn't say that divorce was ideal.

Your still missing how Jesus lowered the standards.

Anything we ask for is the metaphor.

Nope. He said, "Truly."

What about God’s cruelty against the Midianites

Only a certain group of Midianites was judged. The rest were spared totally.

Nope. This has nothing to do with the belief-magic perscribed by Jesus in the Christian bible. You're not quoting the verses because they show that you're wrong.

The Messiah was to be buried with the rich in his death. Jesus was also a man of sorrows. Messianic Prophecies Fulfilled by Yeshua

This has nothing to do with the credibility of the Christian bible. the Christian bible says that a person receives whatever they want if they believe. It's an exaggeration.It doesn't work. If the Christian bible exaggerated about this, it probably exaggerated about other things too.

18Early in the morning, as Jesus was on his way back to the city, he was hungry. 19Seeing a fig tree by the road, he went up to it but found nothing on it except leaves. Then he said to it, “May you never bear fruit again!” Immediately the tree withered.

20When the disciples saw this, they were amazed. “How did the fig tree wither so quickly?” they asked.

21Jesus replied, “Truly I tell you, if you have faith and do not doubt, not only can you do what was done to the fig tree, but also you can say to this mountain, ‘Go, throw yourself into the sea,’ and it will be done. 22If you believe, you will receive whatever you ask for in prayer.”

 

[Skywalker]

You don't know the standards. That's why you're missing it. He definitely lowered the standards.

Your still missing how Jesus lowered the standards.

Nope. He said, "Truly."

Nope. This has nothing to do with the belief-magic perscribed by Jesus in the Christian bible. You're not quoting the verses because they show that you're wrong.

This has nothing to do with the credibility of the Christian bible. the Christian bible says that a person receives whatever they want if they believe. It's an exaggeration.It doesn't work. If the Christian bible exaggerated about this, it probably exaggerated about other things too.

18Early in the morning, as Jesus was on his way back to the city, he was hungry. 19Seeing a fig tree by the road, he went up to it but found nothing on it except leaves. Then he said to it, “May you never bear fruit again!” Immediately the tree withered.

20When the disciples saw this, they were amazed. “How did the fig tree wither so quickly?” they asked.

21Jesus replied, “Truly I tell you, if you have faith and do not doubt, not only can you do what was done to the fig tree, but also you can say to this mountain, ‘Go, throw yourself into the sea,’ and it will be done. 22If you believe, you will receive whatever you ask for in prayer.”

truly isnt the metaphor. Anything we ask for is the metaphor.

The Talmud says that Jesus was a sorcerer. That isn't Tanakh evidence.

Miracles are not magic. Magic is being a spiritual mover and shaker without submitting to God. God is not a wizard.

 

[Trailblazer]

It wasn't all Paul's doing. Here's what Baha’u’llah says:

"this youthful Nazarene [Jesus], who laid claim to the station of the divine Messiah, had annulled the law of divorce and of the sabbath day—the most weighty of all the laws of Moses."

(The Kitáb-i-Íqán)
www.bahai.org/r/570360520 ​

I cannot address that since I do not know what Baha'u'llah was referring to; in other words I do not know what law in the Torah Jesus allegedly annulled, so to jump on that and say "yay, we got those Baha'is now" is to me totally unjust; but that is just how I operate, I need all the facts before I make any determinations. Other people jump to conclusions because it supports their beliefs and I consider that unjust.

So. Jesus made changes to the law even though he said he wouldn't. Baha’u’llah endorses it eventhough it contradicts the Qur'an. It doesn't make sense to ask a Jew to accept all three Jesus, Muhammad, and Baha’u’llah as perfect manifestations of God if they contradict themselves and each other.

Again, I would have to see actual scriptures where Jesus said He would not make any changes to the law. It is very possible, even probable, that those scriptures were misinterpreted thus misunderstood.

That said, it is a Baha'i belief that every new Messenger of God has the right to change the law, abrogating the former law, and He does do that because laws need to be updated in every new age. Do you really believe that the Torah laws that have homosexuals and adulterers put to death are appropriate in the present age? Were they ever appropriate?

Baha'is believe that the spiritual teachings of religion are eternal, they never change, but the social teachings and laws need to change over time.

“These divine qualities, these eternal commandments, will never be abolished; nay, they will last and remain established for ever and ever. These virtues of humanity will be renewed in each of the different cycles; for at the end of every cycle the spiritual Law of God—that is to say, the human virtues—disappears, and only the form subsists.” Some Answered Questions, p. 47

“The second part of the Religion of God, which refers to the material world, and which comprises fasting, prayer, forms of worship, marriage and divorce, the abolition of slavery, legal processes, transactions, indemnities for murder, violence, theft and injuries—this part of the Law of God, which refers to material things, is modified and altered in each prophetic cycle in accordance with the necessities of the times.” Some Answered Questions, p. 48

 

[dybmh]

truly isnt the metaphor. Anything we ask for is the metaphor.

Nope.

21Jesus replied, “Truly I tell you, if you have faith and do not doubt, not only can you do what was done to the fig tree, but also you can say to this mountain, ‘Go, throw yourself into the sea,’ and it will be done. 22If you believe, you will receive whatever you ask for in prayer.”

The Talmud says that Jesus was a sorcerer. That isn't Tanakh evidence

The Christian bible portrays Jesus are practicing belief-magic. Jesus is hungry and withers a fig tree because it didn't have any fruit for him. There is no mention of God in this entire event. He tells people that their "belief" can do the same thing.

Miracles are not magic. Magic is being a spiritual mover and shaker without submitting to God. God is not a wizard.

Jesus never mentions submitting to God. There is no humility. its 100% belief.

 

[Skywalker]

Nope.

21Jesus replied, “Truly I tell you, if you have faith and do not doubt, not only can you do what was done to the fig tree, but also you can say to this mountain, ‘Go, throw yourself into the sea,’ and it will be done. 22If you believe, you will receive whatever you ask for in prayer.”

The Christian bible portrays Jesus are practicing belief-magic. Jesus is hungry and withers a fig tree because it didn't have any fruit for him. There is no mention of God in this entire event. He tells people that their "belief" can do the same thing.

Jesus never mentions submitting to God. There is no humility. its 100% belief.

Truly isn't a metaphor. Jesus was saying that literally. But whatever you ask for in prayer is not literal.

Faith isn't magic.The fig tree miracle was part of the parables of Jesus. There is no mention of God because it's assumed Jesus is God. He was subtle in saying it as to not draw undue attention to himself and confuse himself with God the father.

Jesus said in the Garden, not my will but thine be done. That was Jesus being humble. All beliefs involve faith.

 

[Skywalker]

The label is irrelevant. At the time when the temple stood is different than today. If a Jewish person today believes that Jesus is the Jewish messiah, in spite of the fact that there is no temple and that the Jewish people are not united, I think that's a mistake.

What does the existence of the temple and the total regathering of Israel have to do with whether the Old and New Covenant can't be followed together?

 

[Skywalker]

People make mistakes.

Just because something is confusing by modern terminology doesn't mean it's a mistake. In the first century, it wasn't how could be Jewish and believe in Jesus, it was, how could you be a gentile and believe in Jesus? The false doctrine of the Judaizers was related to that.

 

[dybmh]

I cannot address that since I do not know what Baha'u'llah was referring to; in other words I do not know what law in the Torah Jesus allegedly annulled, so to jump on that and say "yay, we got those Baha'is now" is to me totally unjust; but that is just how I operate, I need all the facts before I make any determinations. Other people jump to conclusions because it supports their beliefs and I consider that unjust.

I think this is a little unfair considering the judgements that are made against "Jews". That's unjust as well. Anytime someone makes a judgement about someone based on their religious affiliation, that's jumping to conclusions too.

Again, I would have to see actual scriptures where Jesus said He would not make any changes to the law. It is very possible, even probable, that those scriptures were misinterpreted thus misunderstood.

If Baha’u’llah's words are 100% true then Jesus annuled "the most weighty of the laws of Moses". I don't see anyway around it.

Do you really believe that the Torah laws that have homosexuals and adulterers put to death are appropriate in the present age? Were they ever appropriate?

It's a really good point. But that doesn't change the fact that Jesus said he wasn't going to change the law and then made some major changes. It's dishonest.

That said, it is a Baha'i belief that every new Messenger of God has the right to change the law, abrogating the former law, and He does do that because laws need to be updated in every new age.

Everytime a new Messenger is added to the list in the chain it makes it harder and harder to prove that each one a 100% perfect Manifestation of God.

 

[dybmh]

What does the existence of the temple and the total regathering of Israel have to do with whether the Old and New Covenant can't be followed together?

I think you've lost track of the conversation. We weren't talking about the New Covenant at that time.

Here's what you said:

Why is a Jew following the Messiah of Israel a mistake? It doesn't sound like a double religion, because the term Christianity didn't exist when the first followers of Jesus were around. They were called Nazarenes.

Then I said:

The label is irrelevant. At the time when the temple stood is different than today. If a Jewish person today believes that Jesus is the Jewish messiah, in spite of the fact that there is no temple and that the Jewish people are not united, I think that's a mistake.

The existence of the temple and the Jewish people in unity are, imo, the qualifications of the Jewish Messiah.

The reason that the Old Covenant and the New Covenant cannot be followed together is because the definition of the New Covenant is that the Old Covenant is dissolved. Hebrews 8:13.

 

[Trailblazer]

It was intended to be taken literally. Verse 21 says: "Truly I tell you..."

That is not the way I interpret scriptures. "Truly I tell you..." is just a way to emphasize what Jesus was going to say, it does not mean it is literally true that if someone has faith they can move a mountain.

No. Sorry. We were talking about the Christian bible's credibility. It is less credible than Tanach, because Tanach does not promise magical powers based on the strength of a person's conviction.

The Christian Bible is less credible to you for that reason, but credibility is an individual thing, so that does not make it less credible to everyone. The upshot is that I do not think credibility is a good criterion for deciding what scriptures are ‘better’ since it is subjective.

Let's look at the Baha'i writings. I'm guessing that they reference the Christian bible.

Indeed they do, but they do not always quote the Bible, even if they refer to it. Among other texts, you will find references to the Bible in The Kitáb-i-Íqán and in Some Answered Questions, in Part Two: SOME CHRISTIAN SUBJECTS.

 

[dybmh]

Just because something is confusing by modern terminology doesn't mean it's a mistake. In the first century, it wasn't how could be Jewish and believe in Jesus, it was, how could you be a gentile and believe in Jesus? The false doctrine of the Judaizers was related to that.

The mistake people made in the past (assuming that the story is true) was thinking that the miracles = messiah.

 

[Skywalker]

I think you've lost track of the conversation. We weren't talking about the New Covenant at that time.

Here's what you said:



Then I said:



The existence of the temple and the Jewish people in unity are, imo, the qualifications of the Jewish Messiah.

The reason that the Old Covenant and the New Covenant cannot be followed together is because the definition of the New Covenant is that the Old Covenant is dissolved. Hebrews 8:13.

The existence of the Jewish people in unity will happen when Jesus returns. Then all of Israel will be regathered.

The Old Covenant was dissolved in the context of the Gentiles who follow Jesus.

 

[dybmh]

That is not the way I interpret scriptures. "Truly I tell you..." is just a way to emphasize what Jesus was going to say, it does not mean it is literally true that if someone has faith they can move a mountain.

If "Truly" doesn't mean "Truly" that makes the Christian bible not a credible souce. If it's words aren't taken literally, then it calls into question whether or not Jesus literally fulfilled any of the prophecies.

The Christian Bible is less credible to you for that reason, but credibility is an individual thing, so that does not make it less credible to everyone. The upshot is that I do not think credibility is a good criterion for deciding what scriptures are ‘better’ since it is subjective.

The conversation started because you were saying that Jews don't realize that Jesus is a Messiah. I said that no one really knows what Jesus said or did, so anyone including Jews should not be disparaged because they don't accept a claim of Messiah status without credible information. I didn't say that one scripture was better or worse because of credibility. I said that a Messianic claim needs credible evidence. If the texts are not understood literally, then the text themselves are not credible evidence.