How can the Jew reject, Jesus, Muhammad, Bab and Baha'u'llah?

[Trailblazer]

Because God is infinite. Only an infinite God can pay the infinite penalty of sin. The penalty of sin is eternal separation from God.

Who said that Only an infinite God can pay the infinite penalty of sin? This is not in the Bible, it is a Christian belief and a doctrine of the Church that you bought off on.

 

[Trailblazer]

I don't believe that there was a need for Baha'ullah to come in the station of the Father, because why would God come in the station of the Father and Son but not the Spirit?

I do not know what you mean by that. God IS Spirit, so God does not come in the station of the Spirit.

 

[Skywalker]

Who said that Only an infinite God can pay the infinite penalty of sin? This is not in the Bible, it is a Christian belief and a doctrine of the Church that you bought off on.

God is self existing and infinite in knowledge. The penalty of sin is infinite because hell is eternal. The amount of time a crime takes doesn't necessarily mitigate the punishment.

 

[Skywalker]

Who said that Only an infinite God can pay the infinite penalty of sin? This is not in the Bible, it is a Christian belief and a doctrine of the Church that you bought off on.

Hell is the spiritual equivalent of prison. It's based on the Bible and it's not just a belief of the church and Christians. Hell is mentioned in the Tanakh too. Sheol isn't the grave, because the wicked are turned over to sheol. The righteous and wicked don't both go to sheol.

 

[Skywalker]

I do not know what you mean by that. God IS Spirit, so God does not come in the station of the Spirit.

The Holy Spirit came in the form of a dove during the baptism of Christ.

 

[Skywalker]

Who said that Only an infinite God can pay the infinite penalty of sin? This is not in the Bible, it is a Christian belief and a doctrine of the Church that you bought off on.

Once we've sinned against an infinite God, we cannot make it up with good works. In human law, attempting to bribe a judge will only make the penalty worse. How much more would it be for the holy righteous judge of the universe?

 

[dybmh]

It is all a matter of how you interpret the verses in the Tanakh. If you are expecting a man called David, who will rule like a king, that is all you will be ‘willing’ to see, because you will be blinded by your confirmation bias.

I'm trying to ignore any preconcieved ideas and simply look at verses that Baha'i deem important.

Baha’is believe that the Messiah was the Lord of all name and the Lord of Hosts.

As such, I believe that “Lord” in Micah 7:7 through 7:12 refers to the Messiah, who was also the Lord of all name and the Lord of Hosts, and “he” in 7:12 refers to the Messiah and what he will do.

OK. That explains why Baha'i would interpret those verses differently. But it doesn't bring anything convincing to an outsider. The belief in the Baha'i version of the messiah comes first. So the choice to believe in Baha’u’llah as the Messiah is not really coming from prophecy. The belief comes probably from what he wrote. I've read some of his writing, it doesn't speak to me. If a person likes his writing, is inspired by what he says, that's a personal preference, If a person isn't inspired by his writing, it's not due to confirmation bias or reticence looking at different interpretations of prophecy.

perhaps a better way to approach this is for you to find those verses in the Tanakh that you believe refer to the Messiah, and then I can explain how I believe that Baha’u’llah fulfilled them.

I've seen you talk about the significance of the year 1844 as the beginning of the resettlement of the land of Israel by Jewish people.

If we agree that this is a messianic prophecy, how did Baha’u’llah fulfill this prophecy. What was his involvement in the resettlement of the land of Israel?

 

[dybmh]

Why is a Jew following the Messiah of Israel a mistake? It doesn't sound like a double religion, because the term Christianity didn't exist when the first followers of Jesus were around. They were called Nazarenes.

The label is irrelevant. At the time when the temple stood is different than today. If a Jewish person today believes that Jesus is the Jewish messiah, in spite of the fact that there is no temple and that the Jewish people are not united, I think that's a mistake.

 

[Skywalker]

The label is irrelevant. At the time when the temple stood is different than today. If a Jewish person today believes that Jesus is the Jewish messiah, in spite of the fact that there is no temple and that the Jewish people are not united, I think that's a mistake.

Is your issue with the idea of Jewish Christianity that Jesus isn't ruling a united Jewish people and that's why he didn't fulfill the messianic prophecies? He will at his second coming, and he came before the destruction of the second temple in 70 AD.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

David is not the Messiah. I believe that David will rule with the Messiah during the 1000 year reign of Christ.

I didn't say that David was the messiah,athough truthfully david was A messiah (there have been many). I said THE Messiah was "David," meaning that David is used as the personification of the Messiah, he is figuratively being spoken of as the Messiah. and with reason. It is because those things which we remember about David, will be true about the Messiah.

I'm not sure why you think David will be resurrected during the messianic era. Its before the resurrection.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

Why is a Jew following the Messiah of Israel a mistake? It doesn't sound like a double religion, because the term Christianity didn't exist when the first followers of Jesus were around. They were called Nazarenes.

The Nozrim simply don't exist anymore. they don't exist because their sect was kicked out of the synagogues.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

Peace will happen during the 1000 year reign of Christ. Did Jesus Fulfill the Messianic Prophecies in the Old Testament? | Jewish Voice



Israel will be fully regathered when Jesus returns.

Jesus was the son of David legally through solomon and biologically through Nathan.

What you are basically saying is that Jesus did NOT fulfill these prophecies, that he has to fulfill them next time around.

Do you understand how ridiculous it would be if we allowed for every messianic contender who said, "Hi, I'm the messiah. I'll fulfill the prophecies next time around"??? Using that strategy, even I can claim to be the messiah!

 

[IndigoChild5559]

Talk is cheap. Show me the actual verses that say that there will be a Messiah that rules on earth and that peace will be established during his lifetime. Either that or I will consider that a belief not supported by scripture.

Talk is cheap. Show me the actual verses that say that there is any specific number of Jews who will return to the homeland and show me the verses that say when they will return.

Talk is cheap. Show me the actual verses that say that the Messiah is a man called David.

The hundred-dollar question is who is David within the context of the scriptures, and that involves interpretation of scriptures, not assumptions of who the Messiah will be according to who you already believe he is, according to what you were taught and/or how you interpreted the scriptures. There can be more than one interpretation of the same scriptures and there is no reason to think your interpretation is correct.

Baha’is do not believe that the throne of David refers to a man who will rule on a throne on earth. Prove me wrong.

“THE Most Great Law is come, and the Ancient Beauty ruleth upon the throne of David. Thus hath My Pen spoken that which the histories of bygone ages have related. At this time, however, David crieth aloud and saith: ‘O my loving Lord! Do Thou number me with such as have stood steadfast in Thy Cause, O Thou through Whom the faces have been illumined, and the footsteps have slipped!’” Proclamation of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 89-90

“LEND an ear unto the song of David. He saith: ‘Who will bring me into the Strong City?’ The Strong City is ‘Akká, which hath been named the Most Great Prison, and which possesseth a fortress and mighty ramparts… Peruse that which Isaiah hath spoken in His Book. He saith: ‘Get thee up into the high mountain, O Zion, that bringest good tidings; lift up thy voice with strength, O Jerusalem, that bringest good tidings. Lift it up, be not afraid; say unto the cities of Judah: “Behold your God! Behold the Lord God will come with strong hand, and His arm shall rule for Him.”’ This Day all the signs have appeared. A great City hath descended from heaven, and Zion trembleth and exulteth with joy at the Revelation of God, for it hath heard the Voice of God on every side.”
Proclamation of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 90-91

Dream on. You have showed me nothing because all you have are beliefs and personal opinions. You make a lot of claims but you provide no verses to back up those claims.

I do not debate beliefs and personal opinions. I need evidence, which is in the actual scriptures.
When I debate with Christians those are honest debates because they provide the scriptures to back up their beliefs.

As my mother used to say: “if you can’t stand the heat, get out of the kitchen.”
If you cannot back up your beliefs with scriptures, don’t engage in a debate.

Trailblazer, I'm not sure if it was you or our other Bahai friend, but I know that i've gone into scriptural detail on this very topic more than once, and I'm not going to do it a third time. I feel like I spin my wheels and you guys don't listen. This particular debate between you Baha'i's and I over the nature of the messiah was among the very first when I was a newbie here. But it really wasn't all that long ago. If you had, listened, you should remember.

 

[Skywalker]

I didn't say that David was the messiah,athough truthfully david was A messiah (there have been many). I said THE Messiah was "David," meaning that David is used as the personification of the Messiah, he is figuratively being spoken of as the Messiah. and with reason. It is because those things which we remember about David, will be true about the Messiah.

I'm not sure why you think David will be resurrected during the messianic era. Its before the resurrection.

The Messiah would be a descendant of David. Jesus was descended legally to Solomon through Joseph and biologically to Nathan through Mary.

Regarding why would there be many messiahs, why do you think that the second coming would be a different Messiah makes more sense than the second coming of the same Messiah?

 

[Skywalker]

The Nozrim simply don't exist anymore. they don't exist because their sect was kicked out of the synagogues.

They were not contradicting being Jewish, because the term Christian didn't exist at the time and even if it did, until Christianity was spread to the Gentiles, the New Covenant wasn't seen as a different belief system.

 

[Skywalker]

What you are basically saying is that Jesus did NOT fulfill these prophecies, that he has to fulfill them next time around.

Do you understand how ridiculous it would be if we allowed for every messianic contender who said, "Hi, I'm the messiah. I'll fulfill the prophecies next time around"??? Using that strategy, even I can claim to be the messiah!

It's more along the lines of the Jewish sects who believe that there will be two Messiahs.

 

[Trailblazer]

Trailblazer, I'm not sure if it was you or our other Bahai friend, but I know that i've gone into scriptural detail on this very topic more than once, and I'm not going to do it a third time. I feel like I spin my wheels and you guys don't listen. This particular debate between you Baha'i's and I over the nature of the messiah was among the very first when I was a newbie here. But it really wasn't all that long ago. If you had, listened, you should remember.

I listen to everything that is posted to me and I answer it. Everyone on this forum knows that. No, you have not been around the 'scriptural details' with me. Perhaps you posted a few verses, but nothing in those verses supported your rigid beliefs of what the Messiah has to be like, and what he has to do in order to 'qualify.' Those verses are very general, not specific, but you want to make a general verses specific because of what you already believe, which is what you want to believe, and you will never consider any other possibilities. That was not a discussion, it was is a lecture, because you never considered anything I said. All you did was tell me I was wrong and you were right.

You might want to say that same about me, but the hundred million dollar difference is that I believe in a Messiah who has come and gone and I can back up my beliefs with the prophecies that were fulfilled by Baha'u'llah, whereas and all you have is a 'conception' of what the Messiah will be like, what he has to be like and what he has to do, in order to live up to your expectations, which are based solely upon your personal interpretations of scripture. Those interpretations are not going to change, so I see no point in going around that block again.

Another thing Jews do not realize is that Jesus was indeed a Messiah, and He did fulfill many of the prophecies in the Tanakh, but He did not fulfill all of them because that was not part of God's Plan. God's Plan was to send another Messiah in the future in order to complete the work Jesus started. That is why Jesus promised to send 'another Comforter' who would complete the work He started and fulfill the remainder of the prophecies, including the prophecies that refer to the Messianic Age. We are only in the beginning of the Messianic Age which is to last no less than 1000 years from the year 1863 AD, so those Messiah prophecies have not all been fulfilled.

 

[dybmh]

Another thing Jews do not realize is that Jesus was indeed a Messiah

The claim that Jesus is a Messiah requires the Christian bible. The Christian bible is not a credible source. No one really knows what Jesus said or did. Because of this it should be understandable that anyone, including Jews, is skeptical about Jesus' status as a Messiah.

The claim that Jesus is a Messiah is not based on credible evidence.

 

[Trailblazer]

The claim that Jesus is a Messiah requires the Christian bible. The Christian bible is not a credible source. No one really knows what Jesus said or did. Because of this it should be understandable that anyone, including Jews, is skeptical about Jesus' status as a Messiah.

The claim that Jesus is a Messiah is not based on credible evidence.

You say that the Christian Bible is not credible, what do you mean by credible?
Can you explain WHY you think the Christian Bible is any LESS credible than the Tanakh?

 

[dybmh]

You say that the Christian Bible is not credible, what do you mean by credible?

The Christian bible asserts if you believe, you will receive anything you ask for in prayer. Matthew 21:21-22. It simply doesn't work. It's an exaggerated claim at best. This theme of the power of faith is repeated throughout the Christian bible. This makes me wonder what else has been exaggerated in the Christian bible.

Can you explain WHY you think the Christian Bible is any LESS credible than the Tanakh?

The Tanach does not promise magic powers to people based on whether or not they believe. That makes it a tiny bit more credible.