How can the Jew reject, Jesus, Muhammad, Bab and Baha'u'llah?

[Skywalker]

I think I see why you would think so...

The messianic task list mentions the Messiah dying in battle and resurrecting.

 

[dybmh]

The messianic task list mentions the Messiah dying in battle and resurrecting.

where do you see that?

 

[Trailblazer]

I was mentioning evidence from those who reject Jesus that support that Jesus resurrected.

You said: Those who don't believe in Christ agreeing with the Messiah resurrecting is unbiased evidence that supports that Jesus came back to life.

How can people who don't believe in Christ agree with Christ resurrecting?

Nobody comes back to physical life after being physically dead for 3 days.

 

[Skywalker]

where do you see that?

Messiah Ben Joseph is described similar to Jesus in Revelation, defending Israel from their enemies.

The Pre-Messianic Era

Yosef will be the one who will lead Israel to victory in the war of Gog and Magog.

https://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/1108919/jewish/Gog-and-Magog.htm

Moshiach ben Yosef will be killed in the war against Gog and Magog. Again, it is unclear whether the death will be in physical battle, or as a result of the spiritual battles which he will wage against the forces of evil. Either way, the prophet Zechariah (12:10) describes the national mourning that will follow his death.

Apparently, though, the death of Moshiach ben Yosef is not inevitable. The master-kabbalist Rabbi Isaac Luria, known as the Arizal, said that when saying in the Amidah the words, "speedily establish the throne of Your servant David," one should beseech G‑d that Moshiach ben Yosef should not die in the course of his struggles.

 

[Skywalker]

You said: Those who don't believe in Christ agreeing with the Messiah resurrecting is unbiased evidence that supports that Jesus came back to life.

How can people who don't believe in Christ agree with Christ resurrecting?

Nobody comes back to physical life after being physically dead for 3 days.

I believe that they know in some sense of Jesus being the Messiah. https://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/1108919/jewish/Gog-and-Magog.htm

The prophet Ezekiel (chapters 38-39) describes a climactic battle that will be instigated by Gog and/or Magog, and will be waged against Israel and G‑d. The defeat of Gog and Magog will precipitate the Messianic Redemption. It is difficult to dwell on this topic because it is so shrouded in mystery. We are uncertain as to the identity of Gog and Magog, whether Gog and Magog are the names of nations or individuals, whether this battle will be a physical or spiritual battle, and even whether it has already occurred or not.

Some say that Elijah will arrive before the war of Gog and Magog, while others say that he will arrive three days prior to the revelation of Moshiach.

According to tradition, the central personality in this war is Moshiach benYosefAccording to tradition, the central personality in this war is Moshiach ben Yosef—Moshiach of the tribe of Joseph. Jewish tradition speaks of two redeemers, each one called Moshiach. Both are involved in ushering in the Messianic Era. They are Moshiach ben David and Moshiach ben Yosef. (The unqualified term "Moshiach," however, belongs exclusively to Moshiach ben David, the ultimate redeemer.)

 

[Trailblazer]

Daniel was talking about the resurrection of the dead. Humans were created to live on earth, not in heaven. What About Daniel's Prophecy of the General Resurrection?

2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

Sorry but no... Daniel was not talking about dead people rising from graves. He was talking about people who have spiritual life, those who are close to God.

Humans were created to live on Earth for their normal life span, and after that they die and their soul ascends to heaven. No human was created to live on Earth past his life span.

The belief in the resurrection of Jesus and of the dead has done more damage to humanity than any other single belief.

 

[Trailblazer]

where do you see that?

Nowhere.

 

[Skywalker]

2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

Sorry but no... Daniel was not talking about dead people rising from graves. He was talking about people who have spiritual life, those who are close to God.

Humans were created to live on Earth for their normal life span, and after that they die and their soul ascends to heaven. No human was created to live on Earth past his life span.

The belief in the resurrection of Jesus and of the dead has done more damage to humanity than any other single belief.

There is no evidence in that verse that their could have been figurative language used. What About Daniel's Prophecy of the General Resurrection?

“Is Daniel’s prophecy, in chapter 12, verse 2, a symbolic reference to Israel’s deliverance from Babylonian captivity, as some claim, or does it refer to the general resurrection of the dead at the end of time?”

Some five centuries before the birth of Jesus Christ, the prophet Daniel, from captivity in Babylon, uttered a remarkable prophecy that has echoed reverberations both of joy and terror down the corridors of time.

“And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt” (Dan. 12:2).

Due to the clarity of its language, this passage is troubling to those who are repelled by the consequences suggested.As noted in the question cited above, some critics have contended that the thrust of the text is merely temporal, i.e., it is but a figurative reflection of Israel’s deliverance from the seventy-year captivity period under the oppressive hand of pagan Babylon. Others suggest that perhaps the allusion is to a “resurrection” of the Jews from a state of apathy during the time of the persecutions of Antiochus Epiphanes (175-163 B.C.).

Some scholars have contended that the primary application of the prophecy was temporal, but that in a secondary sense Daniel clearly foretold a future, universal resurrection from the dead.

Occasionally it is the case that the image of a “resurrection” can have a symbolic thrust, as in the case of Ezekiel’s vision of the valley of dry bones, wherein Judah’s restoration from Chaldean captivity is envisioned(Ezek. 37:1-14).Too, Paul describes the deliverance of the Christian from the guilt of sin as a “resurrection” from a state of spiritual death (Col. 2:12). John represents the triumph of the persecuted church over its enemies as that of a “resurrection” (Rev. 20:5-6).

However, no “figurative” sense of a temporal resurrection fits the setting of Daniel 12:2.A symbolic interpretation is not mandated either by the immediate context or related information elsewhere in scripture.A consideration of this remarkable text may well be studied from a three-fold vantage point.

 

[Trailblazer]

There is no evidence in that verse that their could have been figurative language used. What About Daniel's Prophecy of the General Resurrection?

There is no evidence in that verse that their could have been literal language used.

 

[Skywalker]

There is no evidence in that verse that their could have been literal language used.

God didn't create humans in heaven because heaven is an intermediate afterlife. The ultimate heaven will be the new heaven and the new earth.

 

[Trailblazer]

God didn't create humans in heaven because heaven is an intermediate afterlife. The ultimate heaven will be the new heaven and the new earth.

Heaven is where everyone is headed to take up permanent residence, if they are worthy of God.

There is no new heaven, heaven is just heaven. There will be a new Earth though after the Kingdom of God comes to Earth.

 

[dybmh]

Messiah Ben Joseph is described similar to Jesus in Revelation, defending Israel from their enemies.

The Pre-Messianic Era



https://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/1108919/jewish/Gog-and-Magog.htm

None of this talks about the messiah ressurecting. I think you added that part yourself.

 

[Skywalker]

None of this talks about the messiah ressurecting. I think you added that part yourself.

Isaiah 53:10 talks about the Messiah resurrecting. How can the Messiah die and prolong his days?

Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see hisseed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand.

 

[dybmh]

Isaiah 53:10 talks about the Messiah resurrecting. How can the Messiah die and prolong his days?

By living a long life?

 

[Skywalker]

By living a long life?

That verse is after the verse that talks about the suffering servant. Jesus couldn't have lived a life after he died without resurrecting.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Isaiah 53:10 talks about the Messiah resurrecting. How can the Messiah die and prolong his days?

It talks about the seed.

A new tree grown from a seed, is not the same tree that produced the seed.

Regards Tony

 

[Skywalker]

It talks about the seed.

A new tree grown from a seed, is not the same tree that produced the seed.

Regards Tony

The verse about seed is similar to the book of Romans talking about spiritual Israel. What is spiritual Israel? | GotQuestions.org

What is spiritual Israel?

Question: "What is spiritual Israel?"

Answer: The phrase spiritual Israel is used in two primary contexts. The first is as a reference to the entire body of Christian believers, in distinction to the political or racial people of Israel. Spiritual Israel is also sometimes used to suggest concepts related to replacement theology, in which the promises directed toward Israel are now given to the Church, instead.

Galatians 6:16 refers to the “Israel of God.” Given how frequently Paul dismisses ethic or national divisions in this same letter (Galatians 3:26; 4:5–7; 6:15), it is unlikely that he encourages such divisions here. Instead, he refers to the readers as being similar to Isaac: they are the “children of promise” (Galatians 4:28). Paul has a spiritual group in mind in Galatians 6:16, not an ethnic one. This reference to spiritual Israel is clear enough, but not every reference by Paul to Israel is spiritual in nature. Some, such as Romans 9:4, are national and literal. The context is key.

There are other places in the New Testament that suggest a “spiritual Israel” in that they echo terms used in the Old Testament to refer to the Israelites. First Peter 2:9 uses the same terminology as Exodus 19:5–6 in reference to Christians. Galatians 3:29 uses the term heirs, as does Isaiah 65:9. All Christians are “fellow citizens” and members of the house of God, according to Ephesians 2:12–13. Romans 10:12 also says the same—there is no national preference with respect to salvation. Just as we become spiritual “sons of Abraham” by faith (Galatians 3:7), so we can be considered “spiritual Israel” when we receive Christ. In the sense that ethnicity and politics have no relationship to salvation, the term spiritual Israel presents no noteworthy problems.

Replacement theology, on the other hand, uses the concept of a “spiritual Israel” differently. Replacement theology essentially teaches that the church has replaced Israel in God’s plan and that the many promises God made to Israel are fulfilled in the Church instead—Old Testament prophecies are allegorized in order to make them applicable to the church. Replacement theology presents major theological problems, because Scripture says that God has not forgotten or changed His promises to Israel (see Romans 11:1–2, 11, 23, 26, 29). Teaching that promotes a “spiritual Israel,” in the sense that the Church is the focus of God’s prophetic promises for Israel, is not biblically valid.

 

[Trailblazer]

Isaiah 53:10 talks about the Messiah resurrecting. How can the Messiah die and prolong his days?

As I told you before, Isiah 53:10 is about Baha'u'llah, not about Jesus.
You cannot make it be about Jesus my believing He rose from the dead and that prolonged His days.
If someone dies their days are not prolonged.
God is the one who prolongs our days because God is in charge of when we die which is our fate and destiny.

Isaiah 53:10 Yet it pleased the Lord to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the Lord shall prosper in his hand.

Bahá’u’lláh did see his ‘seed’. He wrote a special document called the Book of the Covenant, in which he appointed his eldest son to be the Centre of his Faith after his own passing. This very event was also foretold in the prophecies of the Psalms that proclaim:“Also I will make him my first-born higher than the kings of the earth … and my covenant shall stand fast with him.” (Psalms 89:27, 28) The ‘first-born’ son of Bahá’u’lláh, was named ‘Abdu’l-Bahá, which means ‘the servant of Bahá’(‘u’lláh). Bahá’u’lláh appointed him as his own successor in his Will and Testament. He called ‘Abdu’l-Bahá the Centre of his Covenant.

Bahá’u’lláh’s days were prolonged. He was born in 1817 and passed away in the Holy Land in 1892. In the last years of his life, Bahá’u’lláh was released from his prison cell. He came out of the prison-city of ‘Akká and walked on the sides of Mount Carmel. His followers came from afar to be with him, and to surround him with their love, fulfilling the words of the prayer of David spoken within a cave: “Bring my soul out of prison, that I may praise thy name: the righteous shall compass me about; for thou shalt deal bountifully with me.” (Psalms 142:7)

Thief in the Night, pp. 155-159

 

[Skywalker]

As I told you before, Isiah 53:10 is about Baha'u'llah, not about Jesus.
You cannot make it be about Jesus my believing He rose from the dead and that prolonged His days.
If someone dies their days are not prolonged.
God is the one who prolongs our days because God is in charge of when we die which is our fate and destiny.

Isaiah 53:10 Yet it pleased the Lord to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the Lord shall prosper in his hand.

Bahá’u’lláh did see his ‘seed’. He wrote a special document called the Book of the Covenant, in which he appointed his eldest son to be the Centre of his Faith after his own passing. This very event was also foretold in the prophecies of the Psalms that proclaim:“Also I will make him my first-born higher than the kings of the earth … and my covenant shall stand fast with him.” (Psalms 89:27, 28) The ‘first-born’ son of Bahá’u’lláh, was named ‘Abdu’l-Bahá, which means ‘the servant of Bahá’(‘u’lláh). Bahá’u’lláh appointed him as his own successor in his Will and Testament. He called ‘Abdu’l-Bahá the Centre of his Covenant.

Bahá’u’lláh’s days were prolonged. He was born in 1817 and passed away in the Holy Land in 1892. In the last years of his life, Bahá’u’lláh was released from his prison cell. He came out of the prison-city of ‘Akká and walked on the sides of Mount Carmel. His followers came from afar to be with him, and to surround him with their love, fulfilling the words of the prayer of David spoken within a cave: “Bring my soul out of prison, that I may praise thy name: the righteous shall compass me about; for thou shalt deal bountifully with me.” (Psalms 142:7)

Thief in the Night, pp. 155-159

God does everything with an order and a purpose. why would God send a different Messiah?

The days of Jesus were prolonged because he rose from the dead and was on the earth for thirty days.

Romans 8:11

But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.

 

[dybmh]

That verse is after the verse that talks about the suffering servant. Jesus couldn't have lived a life after he died without resurrecting.

Ah. OK. I read it a little differently. Looking at that chapter as a messianic prophecy is difficult for me.